justsoulin

Thanks John, your words as always help me in my quest, especially; and Mike, I'm in a similar boat and therefore reading and soaking up others opinions here on the board - taking stock so to speak. That's what's making me ask now, which I think is a good thing.

Hi Couldn't think where else to put this article. I did a search and got no results on "McGill" This free pc application can be useful to writers in many ways (I'm not connected to it in any way except I found it, now using it and like it) Hope it is of help to some people here. McGill English Dictionary of Rhyme 2.0 - My link I have found other items and if the board is ok with these kinds of things (e.g. ebook Rhyming dictionaries that are free to download but "can" be bought), I will post download links etc. I understand though if the board prefers not to have such links that refer to places such as Rapidshare or Megaupload. Members can always pm me for such items if they wish.

So Mike, are you saying "don't follow the rules"? Rex, no problem - yes these are not mine and if I gave the impression they were, apologies (the point of the examples was to show finished songs with ref to my post questions and not who sang it, who wrote it). I'm showing examples of actual songs that were put to vinyl and so went through the whole process and became a finished item. In the first instance I don't know who the writer of the words is and in the 2nd, Tommy Chong and Tom Baird. I hope that clears that up for you. Regardless of who the writers are, I know we can "all" cite songs that go against the rules and others that go with the rules. But reading within this section of the board alone, the general feeling I get on this subject, is that musicians are posting replies to advise lyricists how to write. So Rex, any other comment though on the actual subject? Tell me please if I'm being unclear in anyway.

Hi All I've been spending some time reading through various parts of the board, all of which are fascinating. I'm learning so much from you all and understanding things I never knew - THANK YOU! I'm at a bit of a crossroads though and since I'm new to the board, I would like to hear some open and honest views please on the "hot" subject of: Fitting Lyrics to the Music Fitting Music to the Lyrics Overcoming our viewpoints on what can/does and cannot/doesn't fit/work Let me explain in a little more detail my predicament. I've been writing alone for years but have now upon finding this board decided to stop being alone and do something with (what I think) is my talent. After listening to so much music over the years, I understand that some styles are structured (beat to syllables), whilst others appear not to be, allowing the music structure to mix with the lyrics (either/or becoming words or the music) and the words to do likewise with the music, but the vocalist in translating the words can allow for syllables not present by adding additional emphasis say (basically a simple few extra "No, No, No No No's" do the trick). There are also the songs where the verse and/or chorus and/or bridge are shared vocal points, having a completely different syllable count and yet, they both fit. I think what I'm trying to deduce is that as a writer, I can understand a musicians' need to have the structure of the music and therefore think or require the writer to also conform accordingly. So if I were to write a perfect six or eight syllable song, the musician is going to be very happy. But if I wrote it and in simply reading the lyrics a seven or nine count line appeared in what may seem a haphazard way, I don't see that as a problem because "Phraseology" (as in how the writer assumes the singer sings or pronounces the words and the speed at which he delivers them), must come into play - surely? Likewise with the rhyming link. There must be a little latitude as opposed to only exact sounding rhymes - surely? I'm asking this (and hope you understand where I am coming from), to learn and understand. I don't play an instrument but the music's inside my head, so when writing I "get the song". Some members opinions are based on perhaps being a trained musician or self taught or a certain genre that they write/create/perform for. Some opinions are from people like me, they can see how it could fit. Every opinion is worth it's weight in gold. I'm just reading (and becoming a "rule" person in my critique) a lot where my "old" way of writing (where applicable) just is not allowable. But is it right, from what I have read up to now, that lyricists should constrain musicians and vice versa, in the attempt to "not" be creative or as creative as they could be - but just so as to conform with "the rules"? Or does it simply come down to the fact that it all depends upon what you want the end result to do/become? Let me just give you an example to work from (and this is from listening to the song - there are no "written lyrics" that I can find on the net); oh oh don't make me be - 6 what you don't want me to be - 7 don't make me do - 4 what you don't want me to do - 7 don't make me go now - 5 to some (other) place you don't want me to go - 11 why don't cha love me - 5 why don't cha (space) lo love me - 7 why don't cha lo ove me - 6 lo ove me - 3 oh - 1 don't make me - 3 don't make me - 3 oh don't make me - 4 don't make me be - 4 what you don't want me to be - 7 please don't let me go no no - 7 i stray and swear that's a jungle - 7 you wanna love me - 5 why don't you lo ove me oh - 7 etc Now with my limited and correct musical terms, this is an R'n'B number that has a steady guitar rift through it and beat (changes as the song progresses to create the feel of a chorus or bridge). Although there seems no "flow" to the lyrics, both the words, the singer and the music do flow and fit! Take another example: 1 (Does your mama know about me? Does she know just what I am? Will she turn her back on me) Or accept me as a man? 2 And what about your Dad? Did you think of what he'll say? Will he be understanding Or does he think the usual way? 3 Maybe I shouldn't worry But I've been through this before And I'd like to get things straight Before I'm knocking on your door 1 (Does your mama know about me? Does she know just what I am? If she says forget about me) Do you think you'd understand? 2 And what about your friends? Do you care what people say? Will you accept the burdons I know will surely come your way? 3 Maybe I shouldn't worry But I've been through this before And I'd like to get things straight Before I'm knocking on your door 1 (Does your mama know about me? Does she know just what I am? Will she turn her back on me?) Or accept me as a man? We've got to stand tall Can't stumble or crawl We've got to be strong For love that's so right Can't be wrong And every day I see it grow And I don't want to let it go I guess that's why I gotta know In the above, the "1's" have a slight variation (the 2nd one to the other 2), the "2's" vary. Only the bridge (3's) are the same! I'd call this a "standard" song - would you? So what I would like to know is, must I learn how to be syllable and rhyme perfect to understand the music more and how it "should" all fit together (the rules) before I can write a "good" song, or can I carry on learning new techniques as I am here whilst still keeping my (non-conformist) creativity alive? Hopefully the time it has taken to write and ask you all shows how serious I am :D Thanks for reading and replying.