Recording Drums

[gtrfreak182]

okay, so I play in 2 bands. one is prog rock (been there for 3 years) and the other is a jam/classic rock band (only been around for 1/2 a year). anyway, i am the drummer of both and play the role as the producer as well. we are all addicted to recording, so we don't exactly have the money to go to a studio to record, ntm we like to have the full grasp. i am currently in love with my SM57s as i can use them for just about everything. its what i use for the guitars and basses and sometimes vocals. i go direct on the keys. anyway, as most know, its drums where it gets weird. as you realized from what i wrote above, we're not exactly rich... however, im willing to spend about a 1000 (maybe a little more, and this doesn't include the price of what i already have) on whatever it takes to get a good sound.

heres what i have now:

2 SM57s

2 PG58s

1 PG48

(All Shure mics)

I run them through an analog mixer (which gives a stereo output) and then a TAPCO 4x6 Firewire console which is generally a stereo mix input (however, you can take 2 individually at once)

i typically record with an X-Y configuration (if you don't know what that is, use google im not explaining it) with the PG58s and a SM57 in the bass and snare. therefore, i get a stereo image of the kit as well as some control over the bass and snare. i am hoping for someone to give me an affordable solution to get a studio-like sound.

heres what i want:

1. isolation, i like to be able to have individual control on everything

2. direct input to the computer, a console that doesnt have any physical controls, id rather manage volume and eq electronically. for example, i was really interested in this: http://www.guitarcenter.com/TASCAM-US-1641...081-i1368640.gc (btw i usually buy equipment for guitar center, so thats probably the prices i will go by)

3. as far as individual drums go:

a. attack only for the kick. i like a good punch and then just let it die quickly (the sm57 works well, but if you had something different in mind, tell me)

b. for the snare, i plan on using two sm57s on the snare to get sound out of the attack and the rattling underneath

c. for toms (i have a 4-piece) i was planning on using one sm57 on both (two in total then)

d. i would like to mic the hi-hat, please tell me what is useful

e. i don't know whether i should use overheads because i only have a ride and one crash (possibly adding a splash). it might be better off putting mics individually

btw i typically use garage band, so i need something mac os x 10.5 compatible and preferably garage band compatible (i've never heard of anything that can't work with garage band). i am willing to buy better software outside of the 1000 if it is completely necessary (i'm running out of space on my hardrive).

Thank You

[Steve]

The Tascam looks pretty good, and with Eight mic/line inputs plus an additional six line inputs, I'd say that was more than enough for your needs. I would invest in some more mics and try to get the drums individually mic'ed, That way, you can have much more control over the sound of each drum/cymbal. Once you have them all recorded, you can do what you like with them! Add reverb to the Bass drum, bring the snare forward and make it a little snappier! Whatever? with 14 inputs, you have enough for the rest of the band as well. Get some blanking screens around the kit when recording to lessen any bleed from the other instruments. And I would also damp each drum when recording as well. boomy drums don't tend to record well. If you want boomy? Put it on after! Drummer in my last band would have a blanket or two in the bass drum, and tissue paper taped to the toms and snare to cut any natural reverb. Not right over the skin, just a wad on one side.

[gtrfreak182]

The Tascam looks pretty good, and with Eight mic/line inputs plus an additional six line inputs, I'd say that was more than enough for your needs. I would invest in some more mics and try to get the drums individually mic'ed, That way, you can have much more control over the sound of each drum/cymbal. Once you have them all recorded, you can do what you like with them! Add reverb to the Bass drum, bring the snare forward and make it a little snappier! Whatever? with 14 inputs, you have enough for the rest of the band as well. Get some blanking screens around the kit when recording to lessen any bleed from the other instruments. And I would also damp each drum when recording as well. boomy drums don't tend to record well. If you want boomy? Put it on after! Drummer in my last band would have a blanket or two in the bass drum, and tissue paper taped to the toms and snare to cut any natural reverb. Not right over the skin, just a wad on one side.

trust me i know how to isolate. i was just asking if there was any mics that could do it better, but thanks for the info man. keep rockin'!

everyone else, keep the info comin

[Nightwolf]

And I would also damp each drum when recording as well. boomy drums don't tend to record well. If you want boomy? Put it on after! Drummer in my last band would have a blanket or two in the bass drum, and tissue paper taped to the toms and snare to cut any natural reverb.

We used a mattress for the bass drums for StressMonkey, worked well

Overhead miking adds a lot to a drum sound, I would think hard before deciding against it.

SM57's are a little weak in the bottom end for a bass drum freq (~50Hz-5K)

There are drum mike sets available for not too much that might take some of the guess work out of it, not the best, but when each only has one job to do, they do ok

[tgrover]

We used a mattress for the bass drums for StressMonkey, worked well

Overhead miking adds a lot to a drum sound, I would think hard before deciding against it.

SM57's are a little weak in the bottom end for a bass drum freq (~50Hz-5K)

There are drum mike sets available for not too much that might take some of the guess work out of it, not the best, but when each only has one job to do, they do ok

use BFD or Exdrummer software

SM57s are not very good for bass drum. Keep them for the snare or hi hats.

http://www.soundslive.co.uk/product~name~A...-II~ID~8648.asp

i used something similar to this when i last did it. But the results just arent as good as software so dont record drums like that anymore. Got an electronic kit then trigger it all from BFD or Ezdrummer.

[JHubbard]

I usually just use a decent condenser between the snare and hats. Depending on the sensitivity of the mic, it'll sometimes pick up other drums, but isolation's not a big deal to me, as long as you have a full sound and nothing's too overbearing. The really simple way to go is to get a high-end electric set. Samples are always getting better and the Yamaha electric set I bought a couple of months ago is amazing. Only problem is, they're really expensive....

[dc2daylight]

Obviously, the place to start is a great sounding drum kit and player. It makes life lots easier.

As far as mic choices,

Kick - D19 for a warm fat sound, 421 for snap

Snare - sm57 top and bottom

HH - KM84 -10 dB pad

Each Tom - 414 -10 dB pad

Overheads - KM84's, 414's for brighter sound, Coles 4038 for smooth ambience (note that the Coles are figure 8 and work only in a good room.)

I realize these are toward the high $ end but they work great. Lots of people use 421's on toms for the presence rise, but the off axis response is not so good making placement more difficult.

Nightwolf is right about the importance of overheads. Without them, the cymbals sound off-axis and filtered, being picked up by the tom mics.

My 2 cents.

[Prometheus]

Nightwolf is right about the importance of overheads. Without them, the cymbals sound off-axis and filtered, being picked up by the tom mics.

My 2 cents.

Simple trick. When positioning overheads, get a tape measure and make sure they are both precisely the same distance from the centre of the snare drum. That way, the snare will be panned center with no phasing problems in the OH channels...

[Prometheus]

a console that doesnt have any physical controls, id rather manage volume and eq electronically.

Why would you not want to be able to take control? I'm a sound engineer of the old school admittedly, but this seems bizarre to me. Unless I've misunderstood what you're meaning here, it's a matter of when and not if you're going to run in to trouble...

Edited September 1, 2008 by Prometheus

[john]

Simple trick. When positioning overheads, get a tape measure and make sure they are both precisely the same distance from the centre of the snare drum. That way, the snare will be panned center with no phasing problems in the OH channels...

Hey Prom

Phase wise, while I could see that possibly helping with low frequencies, surely there is no way you could be accurate enough in positioning to counter phasing issues in mid/high frequencies?

Cheers

John

[Prometheus]

Hey Prom

Phase wise, while I could see that possibly helping with low frequencies, surely there is no way you could be accurate enough in positioning to counter phasing issues in mid/high frequencies?

Cheers

John

True, but the mid and high frequencies don't cause anything like the same problems... There's nothing worse than carefully miking up a drum kit and then finding when you listen back that it sounds like two drums playing on each side of the mix with a hole in the middle...

With sound travelling roughly a thousand feet per second, every inch you're out is causing a twelfth of a milli second delay in the sound reaching the microphone, so the delay should be beneath the range of human perception. As a matter of fact, you'd probably have to be pretty wildly out before you'd start hearing any delay. One foot = one millisecond, and even without a tape measure you're not going to end up several feet out...

On the high frequencies, it's all pretty meaningless since as you say there's no way in any room with any equipment you can do anything about phasing on highs, but even at a thousand hertz, you're looking at a wavelength of

(just very roughly calculated to illustrate the point)

Let c = velocity in meters per second, let f = frequency in hertz, let x = wavelength in meters

c = f by x

330 = 1000x

=> x = 330 / 1000

=> x = 0.3 meters

0.3 meters is about a foot, so if you position the microphones with a difference of six inches from the center of the snare, you're going to get a phase variance of one hundred and eighty degrees, which isn't too clever. In fact, if you were to pan both overheads center, that would theoretically be a complete cancellation at a thousand hertz. Of course it wouldn't in reality because there are reflections to consider, but the higher you can move that cancellation up the frequency spectrum, the less problematic it will be. If you had a cancellation at 5000 hertz, or 10000, the notch would be so insignificant that you wouldn't even hear it...

That was fun! I've been away from this for too long. If anyone sees anything I've missed by the way, let me know, because my maths isn't too hot...

Edited September 1, 2008 by Prometheus

[dc2daylight]

True, but the mid and high frequencies don't cause anything like the same problems... There's nothing worse than carefully miking up a drum kit and then finding when you listen back that it sounds like two drums playing on each side of the mix with a hole in the middle...

With sound travelling roughly a thousand feet per second, every inch you're out is causing a twelfth of a milli second delay in the sound reaching the microphone, so the delay should be beneath the range of human perception. As a matter of fact, you'd probably have to be pretty wildly out before you'd start hearing any delay. One foot = one millisecond, and even without a tape measure you're not going to end up several feet out...

On the high frequencies, it's all pretty meaningless since as you say there's no way in any room with any equipment you can do anything about phasing on highs, but even at a thousand hertz, you're looking at a wavelength of

(just very roughly calculated to illustrate the point)

Let c = velocity in meters per second, let f = frequency in hertz, let x = wavelength in meters

c = f by x

330 = 1000x

=> x = 330 / 1000

=> x = 0.3 meters

0.3 meters is about a foot, so if you position the microphones with a difference of six inches from the center of the snare, you're going to get a phase variance of one hundred and eighty degrees, which isn't too clever. In fact, if you were to pan both overheads center, that would theoretically be a complete cancellation at a thousand hertz. Of course it wouldn't in reality because there are reflections to consider, but the higher you can move that cancellation up the frequency spectrum, the less problematic it will be. If you had a cancellation at 5000 hertz, or 10000, the notch would be so insignificant that you wouldn't even hear it...

That was fun! I've been away from this for too long. If anyone sees anything I've missed by the way, let me know, because my maths isn't too hot...

Good advice, Prom!!

HERE IS AN ON-LINE WAVELENGTH CALCULATOR. Saves wear and tear on the gray matter

I agree that it is good to have mics equidistant from sound source. However, it isn't 100% possible if there is more than 1 source (consider the size of a drum kit) unless the capsules are 100% coincident. HERE IS A DESCRIPTION OF VARIOUS STEREO MIC TECHNIQUES. I generally find the XY method is not spacious enough and prefer the AB method. Plus most of my work is large ensembles and mixed in 5.1. Since my work winds up on DVD's and in living rooms, I still have to be very careful about phase, which is the basis of PRO LOGIC surround decoding.

We often talk about phase as a negative, which it certainly can be. It is also one of the cues that allows us to hear in stereo/surround, along with volume difference, time delay (directly related to phase) and frequency content. In my work, I have a minimum of 5 mics open all the time -- the Decca tree (3) and surrounds (2).

Discription of Decca tree:

THE DECCA TREE

The stereo microphone array commonly referred to as the Decca Tree was originally conceived by recording engineers at Decca Records in London. The array consists of three omnidirectional microphones situated at the ends of a large T-shaped fixture, with spacing between left and right microphones approximately two meters, and the central microphone placed in front of these by about 1.5 meters. The complete array is typically positioned a few feet behind and about eight to 10 feet above the conductor's head. Traditionally, the microphones used were “classic” Neumann M 50 large-diaphragm tube condenser mics, which provided a characteristically warm and enveloping sound. The three microphones are usually panned left, center and right, respectively, across a pair of recording tracks.

— Text courtesy AEA

AEA's description of the M50 as a large diaphragm mic is incorrect. It is a small diaphragm surrounded by a plastic sphere to tailor the directional characteristics of the omni capsule.

My last comment (I promise ) is that even with severe phase differences, the sonic effect is dependent on the relative volume of the signals in the mix. An exaggerated example: if the overheads in the case of a drum kit are turned off, there is no phase problem, but as the faders are brought up in the mix, the phase relationship becomes more and more apparent.

[typo]

a lot of useful info in this topic

[Prometheus]

My last comment (I promise ) is that even with severe phase differences, the sonic effect is dependent on the relative volume of the signals in the mix. An exaggerated example: if the overheads in the case of a drum kit are turned off, there is no phase problem, but as the faders are brought up in the mix, the phase relationship becomes more and more apparent.

Those are fine photo streams you have there. Great Stuff!!!

One thing I plan to do before I die is get a photo taken on that crosswalk...

[Nightwolf]

Great info guys

[Prometheus]

I agree that it is good to have mics equidistant from sound source. However, it isn't 100% possible if there is more than 1 source (consider the size of a drum kit) unless the capsules are 100% coincident.

Your 100 percent right, but the difference is that nobody expects the cymbals to be panned center, so it doesn't really matter if they are off axis. If the snare was off axis and off center, the stereo field would have that horrible feel of early stereo mixes from the sixties before they used the Spector wall of sound panning techniques.

The same goes for the kick drum too, but I tend to worry about it less because I more or less EQ the bottom end out of my overhead mix. Being ultra diligant, I suppose one could make the OH mikes equidistant from the snare and the kick drum...