Tuning...

[john]

hey

ok I've seen quite a few vids of people's performances over the years. One thing that I've noticed is the simple lack of attention to tuning. Why is it that seemingly competent musicians regularly neglect this one thing that underpins the performance? It's pretty fundamental.

Weird.

Is it just me? Surely my own ears aren't that bad! have you noticed this too? Why do you think musicians regularly neglect tuning?

Cheers

John

[Lazz]

Why do you think musicians regularly neglect tuning?

Because they aren't actually, really and truly, musicians.

(sorry - it just slipped out)

[Rudi]

The more you delve into tuning / temperament / intonation, the messier it gets. For example, theoretically, a piano cannot be tuned to play in every key. In practice, few people would ever notice any difference between a Cm to Bm transposition.

It aint as emperical as it seems at 1st glance. Tuning tolerence is going to be different for everybody.

[thelevellers]

I'm pretty good at remembering to tune up - playing a 12 string helps with that! You notice more if one or two of 12 are out, as opposed to the same on a 6 string, seems counter intuitive at first... What kind of video do you mean John? Live performance? Or youtube home vids? Cause the latter could well just be take 7, having tuned for the first then forgotten to re-tune... (not much better, but meh! ). Orl if it's live I would assume the performer is lacking a guitar tech! Lol

Talking of tunings and my 12-string, I'm experimenting with a new tuning for it - instead of pairs in octaves, I'm dropping one of each pair to be a third... Sounds kickass for some stuff, power chords still work (tho they're now 7ths I think), but most open and barre chords don't work... Soloing is addictive as it sounds like two guitars playing together

[Musicrmm]

I have noticed this, especialy with flutes and saxophones. These instruments are the worst at tuning in the first place, and then the flutist or saxophonist ignores intonation; it's the harshest sound I've ever heard.

[thelevellers]

I have recently down-tuned all my guitars one step - D-G-C-F-A-D.

It was influenced by learning a song in that tuning (No Distance Left To Run - Blur), which just didn't sound quite right in standard, and as I was on my 6 string accoustic I tried it out, sounded better. Then I tried playing other songs, and pretty soon I also made the association that by lowering the strings I would be able to sing lower in accompaniment. I tried, and I found it was a lot more comfortable singing that bit lower, and I mostly find the songs sound better (or at least 'new'), so I've gone all the way now...

I just wondered what you lovely people might have to say about such a change? Is it just lazy (not trying to extend my vocal range), or maybe an idea you wanna try now?!

Rohan

[Lazz]

I have noticed this, especialy with flutes and saxophones. These instruments are the worst at tuning in the first place, and then the flutist or saxophonist ignores intonation; it's the harshest sound I've ever heard.

Alto and clarinet are notoriously tough to play in tune.

But many manage amazingly well.

Maybe you're listening to the wrong guys.

[FinnArild]

Even the old synths and Mellotrons could be a bitch to get in tune. Thank god for the sampler ... well - probably not God, anyway ...

[Retrosaurus Rex]

One thing that I've noticed is the simple lack of attention to tuning. Why is it that seemingly competent musicians regularly neglect this one thing that underpins the performance? It's pretty fundamental.

Weird.

Is it just me? Surely my own ears aren't that bad! have you noticed this too? Why do you think musicians regularly neglect tuning?

Because they aren't actually, really and truly, musicians.

(sorry - it just slipped out)

Basically. A lot of people go thru the motions, get the light on their electronic tuner to turn green and think they're set. Musician is much too strong a word for what I am, but even I have to fine tune and continually re-tune, even on guitars that are adequately stable.

The more you delve into tuning / temperament / intonation, the messier it gets. For example, theoretically, a piano cannot be tuned to play in every key. In practice, few people would ever notice any difference between a Cm to Bm transposition.

It aint as emperical as it seems at 1st glance. Tuning tolerence is going to be different for everybody.

A well (equal) tempered piano doesn't bother me whatever key it's played in, but sloppy tuning with guitars and horns drags a song down really quickly...

Even the old synths and Mellotrons could be a bitch to get in tune. Thank god for the sampler ... well - probably not God, anyway ...

I had heard that the oscillators on analog synths could drift depending on the line voltage and other factors, but I'll bet that is something few people think about...

I have recently down-tuned all my guitars one step - D-G-C-F-A-D.

It was influenced by learning a song in that tuning (No Distance Left To Run - Blur), which just didn't sound quite right in standard, and as I was on my 6 string accoustic I tried it out, sounded better. Then I tried playing other songs, and pretty soon I also made the association that by lowering the strings I would be able to sing lower in accompaniment. I tried, and I found it was a lot more comfortable singing that bit lower, and I mostly find the songs sound better (or at least 'new'), so I've gone all the way now...

I just wondered what you lovely people might have to say about such a change? Is it just lazy (not trying to extend my vocal range), or maybe an idea you wanna try now?!

Well, it might be satisfying to extend your vocal range, but there aren't any bonus points for difficulty, so I don't think there's anything lazy about tuning your guitar to your voice. A lot of people capo to sing in a higher key, what's the difference? A friend of my transposes his keyboard so he can play in C, F or G, but sing in more comfortable keys like F# & Ab... Now that's lazy! ;D

[Lazz]

A friend of my transposes his keyboard so he can play in C, F or G, but sing in more comfortable keys like F# & Ab... Now that's lazy!

Iving Berlin - who was far from lazy, having written over 3,000 songs, many of which we still hear today - was a self-taught rudimentary pianist who stuck resolutely to the black keys.

"The black keys are right there, under your fingers. The key of C is for people who study music."

He had a special upright transposing piano that cost him a hundred bucks (apparently almost every Tin Pan Alley publishing house had one, so they were actually pretty common back then) which had a small wheel on the side that shifted the keyboard and hammers to the left or right so he could move outside of his regular F#Major.

He called it his Buick.

Later, he got one with a lever instead of a wheel.

It's in the Smithsonian.

[Retrosaurus Rex]

Iving Berlin - who was far from lazy, having written over 3,000 songs, many of which we still hear today - was a self-taught rudimentary pianist who stuck resolutely to the black keys.

Good point, maybe I had that sdrawkcab...

[Nick]

I have recently down-tuned all my guitars one step - D-G-C-F-A-D.

If you like it it's fine. Stevie Ray Vaughan used to detune by a semitone and Hendrix did too sometimes.

The only thing is that on an acoustic it loses some of the sound. They are, I believe, built to play at concert pitch and the sound is optimised to play there. You may lose a little of the sound of the guitar by taking it down a tone. I know a guy who always detunes by about 3 semitones (and then capos upwards). I presume it is because the string tensions are that much less. He is such a tragically bad player that I have never asked him.

I play in dropped D and DADGAD tunings and also in open C quite a lot but compensate by playing with slightly heavier strings.

[thelevellers]

That is the stage I am just embarking on, heavier strings... In fact, I would have done yesterday, had not the order gone wrong - they sent me 6-strings instead of 12-strings! USELESS! I only have a nylon 6-string acoustic, so I can't just use 'em on my other guitar... Tho maybe I could do with a new acoustic 6-string of the steel stringed variety... ;-)

[toeshy]

I get what ur saying John. I have just seen the light not to long ago about tuning cuz im in the middle of writing my first song but it didnt sound at all like i wanted it to until i played with different tunings

[john]

what tunings are you trying?

[FinnArild]

This is where I love the VG99 - retuning at the touch of a button.

[FinnArild]

I think it is similar, but I don't know if it is Roland who has it. The Roland VG-99 works great!

[Retrosaurus Rex]

Is that the new auto-tuning system Gibson's been offering on some models the last few years? I've never had the chance to try one, but I've wondered if they worked well enough to be of real use?

I think that's the robot guitar. I haven't met one in person, but I seem to remember reading a review and being under-whelmed by the limitations of it. It might be more mature now, tho.

BTW, +1 for heavier strings when de-tuning...