? About Recording Live Drums

[msmd]

Hello All:

It has been a while since I've posted here. I must say I'm a little dissapointed in myself for not frequenting these forums more often, but I'm here now, and I come looking for some answers.

First of all, please keep in mind that I am an amateur. I work very hard, but I don't have a lot of formal training in sound production and recording. My only knowledge of the subject comes from a few years of experimentation with a BOSS-864 digital 8-track. So, my methods may not be the most efficient, and my terminology may be a little bit off. Please bear with me. Here's my situation:

I've been working on an "album" since August, and I've been telling myself that I would finish it before graduation. Unfortunately, I've been working so hard on this album that I may get a time extension, if you know what I mean. Finance and music don't always mix well... But that's a another story. I'm finishing up everything, and I wanted to record live drums for all the songs I've been working on, and I need some general advice, so I can get the most out of what I have to work with.

1. I have only one (fairly decent) microphone, that I believe is more of an instrument microphone. In this case, is there a "better" place to put it? Above the drums? Directly in front of the drums? Is this just something I should do by feel, or is there some "trick" that will make the drums sound as good as they can with only one microphone? Should I cover the microphone with a cloth?

2. I'm not sure, but I think I've heard that it's better to record drums in a small (carpeted) room, as opposed to a large room. Is this the case?

3. Do drummers normally try to play with a metronome while they are recording? Does this help or hurt? I generally like synching everything up with a metronome, but I don't want it to turn out to rigid or robotic? (I have the main instrumental parts recorded and will be listening to them through headphones while I try to record the drums)

4. Can you overdub with drums? Or do you have to play a perfect take all the way through with no mistakes?

Not sure if any of that made sense. If not, any piece of advice on this subject would be greatly appreciated, even if it's not related to my questions... I may have some more questions later anyway.

Thanks to anyone who answers in advance, I really appreciate it.

Jack

[john]

Hey

What kind of mic is it? Really I'd recommend you at the very least record the drums in stereo using two overhead mics (matched).

Unless you are deliberately trying to capture the ambience of the room involved a small room with decent damping is better as you don't get large amounts of unintended reverb (reflections from the walls). You can easily add reverb later using an effects unit.

Because modern recordings often require sync with sequencers a "click track" is often used to help drummers stay in time. Playing to a click track is a skill in itself. There is still plenty room for dynamic variation. Only real issue you will encounter is if the piece requires changes in tempo, particularly sections where it slows down gradually as part of the feel of the song.

You can overdub drums, but far better if you can get it down in one take, or at the least record the drums in song sections to composite later.

Cheers

John

[msmd]

Hey

What kind of mic is it? Really I'd recommend you at the very least record the drums in stereo using two overhead mics (matched).

Unless you are deliberately trying to capture the ambience of the room involved a small room with decent damping is better as you don't get large amounts of unintended reverb (reflections from the walls). You can easily add reverb later using an effects unit.

Because modern recordings often require sync with sequencers a "click track" is often used to help drummers stay in time. Playing to a click track is a skill in itself. There is still plenty room for dynamic variation. Only real issue you will encounter is if the piece requires changes in tempo, particularly sections where it slows down gradually as part of the feel of the song.

You can overdub drums, but far better if you can get it down in one take, or at the least record the drums in song sections to composite later.

Cheers

John

Greatly appreciated. I will try and find another mic.

Jack.

[msmd]

If I understood you correctly, most of the other tracks (instruments) are already recorded and you're basically adding the drum tracks last? If that is the situation, just for future reference, that's the reverse of what's most commonly done. Most demos start the final recording with the drum track and use that as a timing guide to add all the additional tracks. I'm actually a drummer and a writer. I used to do my demos with live drums, now I've switched to using a drum machine for most stuff. I've also done what you will need to do...which is add the tracks last. An buddy of mine had done a bunch of tunes with a machine and wanted me to replace the machine tracks with live drums. I've got a couple suggestions for you:

- If there's a way for you to borrow 2 more mics, try to use 2 overheads criss-crossed and a 3rd mic on the bass drum only. The criss-cross overheads will allow you to achieve stereo with a little more control over the final balance and the bass drum mic up close will give you more punch and the ability to control the volume seperately.

- I'd forget about having him play with a metronome....just have him play with the already recorded final tracks. After all, when it's all said & done, that's what you want the drums to mess with. That freind I told you I helped out.....some of his prerecorded tracks didn't keep strictly to the metronome pace. There were spots where he ran a little faster & spots a little slower. After a couple times through, I became familiar enough with some of the imperfections, that I was able to do a decent job matching the pace changes so it didn't end up sounding too dicie.

- If you have songs that require him to begin playing immediately when the song starts, he's going to need some type of count in...click track or a manual count in so he's able to catch the beginning. Whatever you decide on, try to standardize it.....if it's going to be a 2 measure count-in, do it that way every time.

- Like John indicated, deader is probably better. If you want to ring, reverb, some delay.....add it later after you've got what you want in the raw recording.

Hope this helps some.

That helps a lot.

These are not songs we have practiced a lot... if any, so that's why I'm doing the drums in reverse order.

Thanks again.

Jack

[msmd]

What kind of mic is it?

It is a Shure sm57.

I've altered my set-up a little bit based on your guys advice.

I don't have access to any other mics, and my 8-track only has one mic input. However, it does have an onboard microphone.

So, I have the microphone hanging over the drums, and the onboard mic behind the bass drum. It may not be ideal, but the recordings sound a lot better than they did before. Thanks again.

[Donna]

I'm gonna look up Manuok!

(Tom I agree the drummer should play to the song.

Funny I woulda said otherwise but just had the experience in studio of first

drumming to the tracks w/click...then without. 2nd way worked, 1st one didn't -

and I play often to the metronome in practice)

[Donna]

Yes Tom, exactly! (How ya doing, man?)

[Donna]

I'm having fun and doing good

[Nightwolf]

I have doubts that the onboard mic will be able to capture the bass drum, you might have better luck switching the mics to use the onboard as an overhead and the SM for the bass

[Donna]

I agree w/ Nightwolf.

(kinda forgot what the thread was about 'n that flew right past)

[thepopeofpop]

I know this a pretty old thread, but I will make some comments anyway.

You need at least 3 mics to do a really decent sounding recording of drums. However, 2 is better than 1. If you use just 2 mics as overheads then you won't get much bass drum. (The bass drum is also often called the "kick" drum). If you use 2 mics, with one as an overhead then you won't get any stereo spread, although this kind of micing was common up until the sixties.

There are two main kinds of mics - dynamic and condenser. Condenser mics are more sensitive, both in terms of circuitry and also construction, so they are not good for use on drums, except as overheads. A condenser mic placed close to the bass drum will just get overloaded in terms of the sound level, and a condenser placed close to the snare is just likely to get hit by the drummer and destroyed!

If you are in a situation where your recording equipment doesn't allow you to connect up more than 1 or 2 mics, there is a way around this! I think the BR 864 can only record two tracks simultaneously - but it's possible to use another mixer which does have multiple mic inputs and then connect the stereo line outputs of that mixer to the line inputs on your BR 864 multitrack recorder. So you plug your mics into another mixer (it's possible to buy a cheap mixer with 4 to 8 inputs) first. You just need a mixer than has multiple mic inputs, which it means it has multiple mic preamps to bring the mic levels up to line level. This technique was used on the early Beatles' records because they didn't have enough inputs on their main mixer (I think they only had eight inputs) and they were recording all the basic instruments in one live take - drums, bass, and two guitars - so they submixed the drums first. So just make sure you balance the levels of the mics and the stereo placement of each mic. The bass drum mic should be centred, of course.

If you use 3 mics then there are various ways to do this. One is to put one mic on the bass drum - usually placed fairly close - and two mics overhead. However, there's two classic ways of doing that. One is two position the mics overhead at either end of the kit for stereo spread. The second is to put the two overhead mics above the centre of the kit but at 90 degrees to each other - this will give stereo with less cancellation issues. There is a third way, which was used on the early Led Zeppelin albums, is to place one mic near the toms and the other directly above the centre of the kit. This second method still gives stereo imaging but will give more power to the toms. If you use the third method try to position each mic at an equal distance from the snare, so that it is centred in the mix.

If you go beyond three mics then you will usually have two overheads, plus one on the bass, one on the snare (positioned about an inch above the drum skin, but placed where the drummer is not likely to hit the mic) and one or two on the toms. Usually the hi-hats, crash and ride cymbals will be covered by the overheads. If you want more control over the snare you can put a second mic underneath the snare. The snare is usually placed in the centre of the mix. The more mics you use, the more control you have - but you can run into issues of phase cancellation, so you need to experiment with the placement of the mics, particularly the overheads.

2. I'm not sure, but I think I've heard that it's better to record drums in a small (carpeted) room, as opposed to a large room. Is this the case?

It depends on what sound you're going for. But the answer is generally "yes". Carpet is the best, cheapest, way to deaden the sound of a room. Put carpet on the walls too. Don't bother with egg crates, they do nothing. The things that look like egg crates in recording studios are made of special sound absorbing material - the cardboard in egg crates does almost nothing. Also, heavy curtains can help a lot.

3. Do drummers normally try to play with a metronome while they are recording?

Yes. They play to a "click track" which is the same kind of thing. The only exception to this would be recordings where most of the instruments are recorded at the same time and/or where the tempo of the track changes repeatedly.