Do You Value What Songstuff Offers?

[john]

Hi

Do you value what Songstuff offers?

Do you value our community?

Do you like what we do?

Do you want more?

If so, then please lets make this active community even more so. Bring in your songwriting and music industry friends. Spread the love...

Please use the social bookmarking widgets at the bottom of every topic, every blog post and please share and socially bookmark our articles, posts, blog entries etc with your social and music networks.

Please tell others of things you value on this site (and tell us of the things you don't). Add a link to your blog, write a testimonial, others have already, post it on twitter, on Facebook, Digg, Stumble Upon.... wherever.

The Songstuff community thrives precisely because our members find something valuable HERE, and it's not just the useful articles and tutorials (and soon our products!), it's the conversations you generate, the topics that are raised, the people who take part and fundamentally the ethos that the site represents and that we all feel a part of.

In this regard there is no such thing as too much love..., or too much sharing...

So please, keep spreading the love. Get word out there. We are very serious about doing everything we can to help you, so please, help the community continue to grow.... share what you already have, because there's a whole lot more coming!

Many thanks for all your loyal support,

John

[john]

Many thanks for a thoughtfil reply Rob.

It's funny how things go in phases. Once upon a time, hard core critique was what we did. That was back when I was far more active on the forums than I currently am, as were the other staff. On my part, that's the problem when you are the main site developer... adding improvements take you away from taking part. Not that I was the sole reason the site was far more about critique, or anywhere near it, but I and the other staff and many site members focused far more on pushing for higher quality critique from everyone. Everyone is so busy these days. As staff gradually moved on (it happens over the years), or simply spent a bit less time here, instead focusing more on their own music for a change rather than spending so much time encouraging others towards performing a proper critique, and the number of members increased, critique quality dropped off. Saddly people need to be heavily and continually encouraged and often educated towards giving a proper critique, but I am sure members who went through the process with the staff would attest, they did greatly benefit from doing so. I still try to contribute as detailed a critique as I can, when I do offer critique.

I think we've always had a friendly atmosphere here, which is always a plus. We do still have a lot of talented writers.

Who knows, we may again have more hard core critique, after all it is the members themselves that decide that with every critique they offer. Perhaps a campaign to do so? I am aware that most will feel they do not have enough time, or knowledge to offer an in-depth critique, those are oft cited reasons... but I'll take the point on the chin and see what I can do to encourage a higher standard of critique. It is more than a one man job. It relies upon members walking the walk, demonstrating what should be aspired towards and that in itself does encourage everyone towards something better.

As for your points about DA, I completely agree, and can only say that retaining the ethos of the site is very important to me and it is certainly the direction I would prefer. By far. We have a great community here, and I don't plan to undermine it. Keeping it personal is a big part of retaining that, I think. I for one believe we have a loyal membership precisely because our site has always been loyal to the members. What goes around comes around and all that.

Thanks again for your comments Rob.

[Just1L]

I value it for sure... for what it is. I think sometimes people think it is more than it actually is and sometimes people don't read through the lines enough. Songstuff is a great place to get your music listened to and also get some good critiques, but it's also a place to make you feel good. Everyone is different in what they expect. When I first came here, I enjoyed the "good song", "great guitar" comments. It made me feel more confident about my writing and let me know it's okay to move forward. As musicians (artists) we all have a desire to have our ego stroked a bit even if we say we don't. There are some people on here that always give great critiques and others who don't. I take them both equally whether positive or negative. I use my "listens" on soundcloud as a critique themselves. If a song gets a lot of listens, you're doing something right. If it doesn't, something's missing. If I ever hit on a song that gets a "ton" of listens, I know that one's a keeper.

I don't mind people not saying much in their critiques. Maybe they don't know what to say but at least they're saying something. When people aren't saying anything it's never good for the site. I'm a moderator on TheSongwritersForum and everyone there seems to be pretty tight-lipped. I will say I never come here expecting a professional critique of my songs. Although at times I've gotten what I've thought to be really great critiques.

In short: I get what I get, and I don't throw a fit. It really does no good.

Would I like there to be a place on Songstuff to get a really pro/hard critique? Definitely. Even if it cost a little. But I wouldn't want the entire site to be like that. Not for me as much as the new musicians that come here to post their first songs or lyrics. I think it would be cool to have a "serious critique only" section but I can't imagine it would work as a free section. I think there would be too many posters and not enough people to critique.

Sorry for the disconnected rambling - I've got to think about it and get it all in before lunch ends.

Edited October 2, 2012 by just1l

[john]

Much appreciated that you took time out during your lunch to provide valuable feeback!

But I wouldn't want the entire site to be like that

Absolutely. I would be worried if that was all Songstuff was about. A big part of looking discussing ideas for the site and gathering feedback is to improve what we provide. To deliver what is wanted and what is needed.

If anything it's not so much about serious critique as it is about valuable critique, and that value is as much for the person performing the critique, but I totally understand your point about volume of comments and using them as indicators.

An interesting suggestion on the serious critique board, I'll perhaps start a topic where that idea can be discussed in some detail .

Thanks again

[pboaz]

I'm really new to a couple of things:

1. Finishing songs. First one I finished in many years was in March this year...

2. Letting people listen to my stuff.

So I've found the welcoming and supportive atmosphere to be just what I needed.

However, I do like the more detailed/robust critique that I've received. If you want to check out the critique process working well, go check out my Winter Storms thread. Or The Business Class, where Rob (above) gave very useful feedback on vocal EQ that I now bear in mind whenever I record anything.

I appreciate forthright and detailed critique, but I think there are several reasons why this doesn't happen in all cases

- Drive by posters. If somebody has 5 posts to their name do you want to spend 10-15 minutes listening to a track and giving thoughtful critique when maybe their only motivation is to promote their stuff

- Posters who are only interested in discussing their own songs. Similar to the above. People who stick around the board, but have 90% of their posts on their own threads

- Fear of offense. People have different levels of tolerance for critique. I don't want to rain on anybody's parade and if they haven't got their critique preferences (great idea that by the way) set then I need to get an understanding of their personality before I get too critical

Ultimately in a community like this, a culture emerges which is largely beyond the control of the forum moderators. You can push it in the right direction, but really the culture will just emerge.

[Just1L]

understand your point about volume of comments and using them as indicators.

I was actually talking about "listens" which I can track on SoundCloud or Reverbnation. As in: if I'm getting a lot of listens but no comments, I take it as there's something missing in the song or it's not as good as it should be. I could be wrong about it but I always feel if people really like a song, they will say something. I also think that if they don't like a song, more often than not, they won't say anything. Obviously there are more factors at work, that's just one aspect.

Edited October 2, 2012 by just1l

[john]

You make a lot of good points. To be honest it starts with attracting the right members, which is an inexact science at best.

Forums cultures can be driven with rules and enforcement, a carrot and stick approach for example. For me, I like the fact that members vote with their feet. Yes, site staff do some steering, but it's a bit like a trying to steer a super tanker lol The fact is if the steering sucks members don't like it. Member can also affect the steering of the site, which is partly where the idea of the group boards came from.

Drive by posters, in general regular members manage their own reactions etc, but staff can help in some ways, for example it is possible we could disallow the creation of topics on the critique boards until a certain number of posts is passed. the reason we haven't put that in place is that we felt that would then just flood tha boards with pointless posts aiming simply at quickly increasing post count. believe me, we are open to all ideas on this.

The same goes for people only interested in receiving critique. So far our approach is to yet again let those offering critique to vote with their feet.

Bring together all those ideas, and the concept of keeping drafts within the community, that is partly the idea for the members only board. We could raise the barrier for entry either in post numbers, members of a particular group only (and having applications moderator previewed, perhaps meeting a specific set of criteria, and / or adding a small subscription payment that would help the site to pay for itself and deter simple drive by posters, cost wise that is undecided but I am open to suggestions. It could be a combination of all of those criteria) The member-only boards are so far getting some usage, but I have had little feedback on the board or the suggestion that it be subscription based.

I think we have an excellent community, that is improving (hopefully you agree!), and the direction that it is going in I think will accelerate just how useful the site as a whole is, not just the community. I can say, your thoughtful opinions all really do affect the shape of the site and community to come.

One point I would suggest: When you see a member posting a song for critique and they haven't set up their About Me page, and their Critique preference, please point them at those features and encourage them to do so.

Lastly, to all, Songstuff does need moderators. Members who would like to take a more active role in the shaping of our community and are enthusiastic about what we are trying to achieve. Just saying

[john]

I was actually talking about "listens" which I can track on SoundCloud or Reverbnation. As in: if I'm getting a lot of listens but no comments, I take it as there's something missing in the song or it's not as good as it should be. I could be wrong about it but I always feel if people really like a song, they will say something. I also think that if they don't like a song, more often than not, they won't say anything. Obviously there are more factors at work, that's just one aspect.

Ah okay, gotcha Yes I agree, if it ticks the box, many people would say something.

[Just1L]

Bring together all those ideas, and the concept of keeping drafts within the community, that is partly the idea for the members only board. We could raise the barrier for entry either in post numbers, members of a particular group only (and having applications moderator previewed, perhaps meeting a specific set of criteria, and / or adding a small subscription payment that would help the site to pay for itself and deter simple drive by posters, cost wise that is undecided but I am open to suggestions. It could be a combination of all of those criteria) The member-only boards are so far getting some usage, but I have had little feedback on the board or the suggestion that it be subscription based.

It could also be "like" based. For example, once you achieve 50 likes, you gain access to a "higher" level. Although typing that makes it sound a little like playing Farmville. I actually had the thought once of Songstuff having an internet radio station that consisted only of songs that have achieved a certain number of likes, voted on by members with a certain minimum number of posts (to keep peoples friends from signing up just to vote for a song).

Edited October 2, 2012 by just1l

[Just1L]

Just1L, the thing that bothers me about your "feel good at all costs" position is that, if given your head, you would water down the site in every instance where ANY friction develops, to the point that the site has no relavence, or value to anyone, at all.

You must have misunderstood. I don't have a "feel good at all costs" philosophy by any means. I was just saying it has it's place, and especially with new posters that are posting their stuff for the first time. I'm to the point where "feel good" posts are somewhat of a disappointment to me. I want to know what's wrong, where, why and how to fix it. That's the main thing I'm looking for. But I also know that with any song I post, there's a good chance that I won't be getting that feedback. I accept it as "it is what it is." I honestly love friction, sometimes though I don't like to see it on the board of someone's song or post, especially if it doesn't pertain to the song/post. (Similar to what I'm doing right now)

Please Rob... keep Frictioning. It does help liven things up from time to time.

[john]

It could also be "like" based. For example, once you achieve 50 likes, you gain access to a "higher" level. Although typing that makes it sound a little like playing Farmville. I actually had the thought once of Songstuff having an internet radio station that consisted only of songs that have achieved a certain number of likes, voted on by members with a certain minimum number of posts (to keep peoples friends from signing up just to vote for a song).

The radio station idea I had considered. Not dismissed, just not a huge priority unless members would really like it. It's not a small overhead of effort for me. If some members are willing to take on the DJ role, even if that is putting the stream together, then it is something I would consider.

[john]

I almost offered the idea of a "serious critiques only' section... I wasn't sure this was the appropriate place to do so. Which kind of speaks to a couple of the issues under discussion, doesn't it?

I think it's important to keep in mind that, even for those of us who take their posting chores seriously, and try to do as many solid critiques as we can, a lot of posted songs simply do not lend themselves to a deep critique, for a lot of different reasons. Many one plus ones are so simply, directly recorded that critiquing the mix is pointless. So, if you aren't a big lyrics writer, that leaves you with a brief comment on the melody, maybe the strumming, and then a brief comment on the song in general. if oyu aren't a top notch guita rplayer, you are even further limited in what you can say. I, for example, play solid rhythm and very solid bass. I can't comment on advanced guitar techniques. I don't know them, and have no direct experience of them.

Some songs are just... shall we say... difficult to comment on...? And I don't just mean the really bad ones. Some songs are topically sensitive. Thrustin has posted several songs recently that I find distasteful. It's not that I mind political or philosophical commentary in music... what bothers me is when someone seems to be writing provocative songs, stories, etc., simply to draw attention to themselves. I've never been one to reward a quest for negative attention, if I can possibly avoid it. The point is that many posts just don't warrant, or lend themselves to in depth critiques.

Agreed that some do not warrant much in the way of comment. Where it enters "production" and "arrangement" there is more scope for most to offer. After you pass mix levels arrangement and production offer the ability to like sounds, effects, instruments etc. Most guitarists I know do care about the sound they create. Too thin, too thick, too distorted, too busy, too 80s, swamped by reverb and delay etc. Also "listen to this track as an idea where you could take this" is something I used to do in the studio with bands, producers and recording engineers. After all we don't need to play like Steve Vai to recognize a sound that would work on another recording, and referencing the recording directly is a great way to demonstrate a point.

So, in my opinion, any effort to place a pre-requisite on a poster before they can post a song of theirs is doomed to failure. When people have to over ride their tastes, prerogatives, or predilections in order to obtain something, it tends to leave a bad taste in their mouths.

Agreed.

But, if you create a new section, and list the pre-requisites on the front door, so to speak, then each member has the choice: "If you come in here, you know what the rules are..."

Probably not a new section, probably the next step for the members only boards.

[john]

Oh, and to be clear I feel similar about deliberately antagonistic songs. When much of the site is about improving songs, their recording, production and marketing, cheap shots also leave a bad taste in the mouth and don't exactly reflect well on the community as a whole. It's a difficult area as staff drawing a line too high or too often can also leave a bad taste in many mouths. I certainly take the point though. It's a pretty big grey area. If something fits into certain categories (racism, sectarianism etc), or plagiarism, I will happily draw a line and often do. If you think any post warrants being removed please report it. Posts do slip through and I and the other staff certainly rely upon members to draw attention to any that do.

[pboaz]

The radio station idea I had considered. Not dismissed, just not a huge priority unless members would really like it. It's not a small overhead of effort for me. If some members are willing to take on the DJ role, even if that is putting the stream together, then it is something I would consider.

It would be pretty easy to set up a Songstuff group on Soundcloud. You could set post minimum here to become a member. Once that group is set up then setting up play lists within that group should be pretty trivial. Not exactly a radio station, but a way to stream tunes.

[john]

It would be pretty easy to set up a Songstuff group on Soundcloud. You could set post minimum here to become a member. Once that group is set up then setting up play lists within that group should be pretty trivial. Not exactly a radio station, but a way to stream tunes.

Good idea, I will look into doing that. I might pick your brains if you are an experienced Soundcloud user

I am very new to this forum and I am still finding my feet. My music is rather a strange mix of old and modern. I only do this for fun and have no hope of ever gaining recompense of any kind for the work .I value the forum highly in the brief time I have spent here . Some very talented folk on here.

I do not count myself among the talented . It is all a struggle for me . That is the fun part trying to overcome a lack of talent.

I see great value here for the more talented a chance to meet like minded people and maybe get a break down the road . Fantastic place for such encounters to occur

Awww. Many thanks. I knew that cuddly emoticon would come in handy

[Just1L]

Well, I can tell you one thing I deeply appreciate, and that is your knowing that my words are considered, and never meant to be spiteful simply for their own sake. I wanted to invoke a thoughtful repsonse from you, and intentionally tried to insure that I got one, as well as trying to relate my true opinion/feelings.

Who said anything about thinking your words are considered before you speak them? I think your rants are normally induced by huffing model glue. And unless you're an insurance agent, you probably wanted to ensure that your Jedi mind trick got a response from me.

peace

[john]

Heh.... model glue... I think I like you.

Hmm... maybe that extra couple tokes, possibly (although that usualy has the exact opposite effect from what you are suggesting... the kind of mad scientist shit I put in my pipe usually instills a passionate desire for munichies, Peter Jackson movies, and/or great sex), but after an early 80's stint as the night manager of the AutoZone on W. Van Buren in Phoenix, right next to the interstate and 2 blocks from the barrio, I learned that the end game from sniffing glue (or paint, or anything chemical and automotively related) was something to be assiduously avoided.

Hell, maybe it's the guitar polish I use... I dunno.

And by the way... I have never, ever, not once, said a damn word to anyone on this site about spelling. Now, here in the last couple weeks, I get bombed like three times on my spelling. I don't get it. I use spell check LOTS... but I'm not OCD about it. If a word here or there slips through, well, to me, content is the thing anway.

Hmm.... maybe it's bash Rob week and I missed the memo...

Awwwwwwwwww.......