It's all about results?

[john]

Hey

 

I was just watching a program where Michael Caine was interviewed. He was saying how he keeps hearing about becoming famous and making money. Money, money, money. When he was young that thought didn't even enter his head. He just wanted to be a good actor.

 

I've pondered this change in society before... where being famous has become more important than what you are famous for.

 

In fact, for many, they seem to think... "why bother working for ages to develop a skill, when I can just short cut the process and get the resulting money and fame". Some will be happy faking it using some software (for example with music creation or even song writing) but often they just seek a non-skill based fame, such as reality TV, as a means to grab fame through shock or charisma.

 

At the same time, appreciation for skills such as music, acting or writing, is at an all time low. They all want something for nothing. That's it.

 

It seems to be simply that it is too much effort to learn the skills. No one wants to learn because that takes away from having fun. Why work when you don't have to. Aspiration no longer involves ability. It is purely results based.

 

So I thought... how would you sell kids on the idea of learning a skill? What nuggets of wisdom would you inpart to a generation of disinterested, entitled kids?

 

Making it simple, why should kids learn to play music, or write songs, or draw beatiful pictures?

 

Cheers

 

John

[Just1L]

Similar to Tom, I believe in trying to teach self worth and satisfaction through work, learning and practicing. It has to be results based … as in hard work = desired results. But yes, it's the way those results are achieved which results in the satisfaction that hopefully would keep them coming back for more. My wife and I try. Our kids play instruments, do sports and my 13 year old is on the second year of his lawn mowing job. He pushes the lawn mower 2 blocks down the street each week to cut grass. His motivation is of course …. money. But at least he has to work for it. We make them practice their instruments for school and they do notice they are better at it, same with sports. But in the end, even with proven results, they just want to go back to the internet. There is a commercial currently running for Charter communications. The families internet goes out and the just don't know what to do with themselves. It shows them feeling like they are missing out on something. It shows one playing an instrument poorly while the family looks on as if unimpressed and bored. A coworker brought it up the other day and thought it was really funny. They blatantly say "you can't live without the internet" and people laugh it off and think it's funny for some reason even though it is true that they can't figure out what to do without it. They somehow don't see how it is dumbing them down. It's interesting when we take away the kids electronics which we do from time to time for a week. At first, they have no clue what to do with themselves but over time they go back to actually "doing" things and creating things. Then the computer comes back and poof, nothing gets done.

 

It is an uphill battle. We tell them that too much internet and technology is not good for you (which it isn't), and then the schools give them their own chrome books because the people at the schools are afraid they are doing wrong by not giving it to them. They're old and out of touch if they don't. The kids won't survive in the tech world without it. The kids today are guinea pigs, lab rats if you will and it will be years before we know what, if any, damage has been done. The best, tried and true way, would be to not allow the internet in your home or their lives at all so they can learn without it. But do that and your put in the same group as the non-vaccination folks and seen as weird and out of touch. They just don't seem to get the same satisfaction when compared to tech. And considering the adults are the same way, if not worse, it's all the more hard to handle. With VR coming out, I predict it will only get worse. 

Edited May 18, 2016 by Just1L

[Rudi]

Ive seen this with young hopefuls. I seen one seize on the phrase 'You've got to show you want it' and not look past the literal meaning. I was told the same thing when I went for my karate dan grading. I understood that it meant demonstrating commitment. The commitment of course, must already be there.

 

There will always be individuals who will devote themselves wholeheartedly into their chosen art. However I think there will be far fewer of them from here on. How many people want to become good musicians, but lack the discipline to practice. Everything is becoming faster and easier, but there are no shortcuts to learning skills. Its not just about 'today's culture' though. In my teens I recall a fellow student remark that he wanted to be a major artist, but didn't want to spend 10 years getting there (WTF?!).

 

When someone speaks to me after a gig about playing guitar, there is a familiar theme. "Ive got a '(insert guitar model)' and I really want to play, but I dont have the time to practice". I usually say something like "well you have a life to lead, why be like us sad acts and spend hours fingering a piece of wood eh?".

 

But in point of fact I actually enjoy practicing. I dont have a routine, and usually have no idea what I'm going to do when I reach for the guitar, but always find something interesting before very long. Maybe that not practicing, but it serves the same purpose.

 

By now, the precedent is established, young people can see easily enough that there are celebrities that are well known for nothing. They have no special skill or talent. Just as everybody now wants to be on a stage. No one wants to be in the audience. So there is karaoke, and open mic sessions where grim faced singer/players take it in turn to get up & perform, but they dont listen to each other, and once they have performed, they leave!

 

We need much larger stages. We should just tear out the seats where the audience used to go.

[Rudi]

BTW, I found it amusing that this came from Micheal Caine because not so long ago he was in everything going. It didnt seem to matter if there was no artistic merit to the movie. As a major movie star, he was also a bit of a tart. . I do actually like Michael, but 'artistic integrity' ? Well, perhaps when he was younger.

[TapperMike]

What a great thread.

 

Regarding kids and chromebooks.  Traditional educational books are expensive.  School districts don't have endless streams of money and quite frankly the educational system is a shambles mostly due to too much emphasis placed on bad testing.

 

 

 

[MonoStone]

Didn't rock musicians always want to be rich and famous? ... I think that was always a driving factor.

 

When punk came along...a whole load of people formed bands because they realised they could make music without having to study it for years. And when electronic music came along, more people got involved because they realised music could sound great even if made quite simply and without needing to know some public school friend who could get them in a top studio with a top producer and session musicians. 

 

I don't get the relationship between people using modern methods to be creative...and people seeking fame purely to be famous. 

 

I also think that saying 'using software' is over simplifying. There's a feeling among some musicians that for example dance artists/producers are cheating... that there's no skill... that there's a magic 'hit song' button lol.... Well, that's utter nonsense and ignorant. Some musicians even think that writing or producing 'pop' songs is easy and beneath them... lol.... they should give it a try and see if they can write a hit pop or dance track.

 

Obviously fame for fame's sake can be irritating ... and today's culture of everyone acting like they're famous (telling everyone what they're thinking and doing on FB and having 'friends' more like fans) is kind of annoying... but then again, times change....why should I understand...  and again, I don't see what that has to do with not working hard in music. I mean I can't stand listening to One Direction, and maybe it seems like they 'won' the fame, but I'd bet money that they work harder than most indie bands... because they're so heavily managed, it's a seriously full-time job that many couldn't keep up. And the people who use 'software' to make them sound good have a skill that the skint among us wouldn't mind having.

 

... Pretty sure the Beatles always wanted fame. Not to be the best guitarists etc, that was just for jazz musicians and prog rockers.... Making the big time was a massive driving factor for any pop artist... not the only factor but a big one... And I'd bet that most actors at least always HOPED they'd be successful, rather than just brilliant yet totally ignored. Or maybe Michael Caine never went to an audition for a big role, he just stayed at home being brilliant in front of the mirror and magically happened to get famous.

 

It's fine to want fame from your creativity, and when you're young you don't want to hear about 'work hard young man'... you think you're the best anyway.... And it's fine to want to be famous for apparently nothing if you want, there's no shortage of people enjoying reality tv... so why not, it's better than working at Mac D's. People who become famous for 'nothing' always have a large helping of natural energy and charisma...something which pop stars have always needed...maybe that's the link.

 

 

[TapperMike]

I will submit to you that the Beatles didn't "have to" hear about hard work.  They already knew about self discipline and determination as they had developed the skills separately before joining forces.

 

Sure I wish I'd started playing guitar or another instrument earlier than I did.  That being said, I had other pursuits which required determination and discipline such as the study of martial arts. My parents didn't pay for my lessons I did.  Mowing lawns, paper route, cleaning the Dojang (Korean) I also practiced every day and tried to get in as many lessons as I could.  All while maintaining my grades.  Quite often in junior and high school altercations would occur as it was not a secret and there were those who wanted to "test me"  It was my training AND hard work that made many of these so called fights child's play for me.  People wanted to learn from me because they wanted my skills for free.  They didn't want to miss their favorite TV shows and they always had excuses.  While wanting to be good and wanting fame and fortune can walk hand in hand.  There is a huge differences between wishing to be good and wanting or needing to be good.

 

People who want/need to be good at their chosen vehicle be it for fame or not push themselves to make that a reality.  It's a want/need that pushes one to be their best, not a wish which makes that a reality.

 

[TapperMike]

Also,

 

It's not just a way back when thing.  I see young people everyday on youtube showing the same type of dedication to their craft.

 

 

 

Edited May 22, 2016 by TapperMike

[MikeRobinson]

To my way of thinking, "super-duper über-sequenced god-knows-what ..."

 

... is just ...

 

... the 21st Century version of ...

 

... ... "an instrument."

 

"An instrument," simply stated, "is nothing more than potential."  It is, "a starting point, nothing more."  Anyone can get there, without effort.

 

"T-h-e Question" is:  "what happens next?"

 

In "the old days," the next step required hand-eye coordination and perhaps-years of physical training.  Today, those physical constraints might be removed.

 

But the objective has not changed.  You must connect to your audience.  And, by the way, "your audience neither knows nor cares 'how the trick was done!'"