Song structure - Help 😱

[danilo]

Hi everyone,

 

I'm starting to study song structure and this whole ABC thing is a bit blurry to me.

 

For instance, Flipside by Norah Jones, consists of (excluding the intro, which I guess is not part of the ABC thing):

 

* Verse

* Verse

* Pre-Chorus

* Chorus

* Verse

* Pre-Chorus

* Chorus

* Chorus

 

So, would the form be AABCABCC?

 

Whole lyrics:

[Chorus]
I can't stand when you tell me to get back
If we're all free, then why does it seem we can't just be?

 

[Verse 2]
You saw your reflection all over the news
Your temperature's well past a hundred and two
Put the guns away, or we'll all gonna lose

 

[Pre-Chorus]
Stand by, or take flight
Eat or throw your piece pie
Walk on, or be mine
Moments fly by and I cry

 

[Chorus]
I can't stand when you tell me to get back
If we're all free, then why does it seem we can't just be?
I can't stand when you tell me to get back
If we're all free, then why does it seem we can't just be?

[Mahesh]

Hey there!

 

Ah, Flipside is a great track! Norah is such a treasure. ❤️

 

Anyways, technically speaking you're right, the song is AABCABCC.

 

That is if you designated each distinct section of the song with a letter of the alphabet every time they appeared. Which is fair. But personally, I'd just assume this song to be of ABC song form. (You could call it ABCABC too)

 

Lemme give you my reasoning. I always assumed song forms were a way to organize the nature and flow of the song. ie., the number of sections in the song and an overview of how they are organized. Nothing more. Generally if a song starts with a verse, then a pre-chorus and a chorus, it's very likely that the second verse will follow a similar pattern.

 

Further more, because tools like song forms are more useful when writing than in performing, indicating two consecutive choruses with 2 C's may not make that much sense. We may indicate that a chorus is to be repeated on the sheet music or the tab sheets instead. So to sum up, I would see it as..

 

{ * Verse

  * Verse } A

 

{ * Pre-Chorus } B

 

{ * Chorus } C

 

{ * Verse } A

 

{ * Pre-Chorus } B

 

{ * Chorus

  * Chorus  } C

 

 

Interestingly, a song form where we do see two identical sections next to each other is the AAB form or the 12 Bar blues form. But sections are a little differently organised there because of a refrain instead of a full blown chorus.

 

I guess the point I'm trying to make is that the way we see song forms may ultimately depend on our purpose for it. Music goes all over the place in its contemporary form today. It may follow a trail to olden ways but it takes liberty in improvising (as it should). So a concept like song forms if used quite literally might make things complicated than help.

 

For more exploration, here's an article of the same. It'll lead you to larger articles to the individual song forms as well if you choose to look into it.

 

https://www.songstuff.com/song-writing/article/song-form-overview/

 

I hope this helps!

[danilo]

18 minutes ago, Mahesh said:

Hey there!

 

Ah, Flipside is a great track! Norah is such a treasure. ❤️

 

Anyways, technically speaking you're right, the song is AABCABCC.

 

That is if you designated each distinct section of the song with a letter of the alphabet every time they appeared. Which is fair. But personally, I'd just assume this song to be of ABC song form. (You could call it ABCABC too)

 

Lemme give you my reasoning. I always assumed song forms were a way to organize the nature and flow of the song. ie., the number of sections in the song and an overview of how they are organized. Nothing more. Generally if a song starts with a verse, then a pre-chorus and a chorus, it's very likely that the second verse will follow a similar pattern.

 

Further more, because tools like song forms are more useful when writing than in performing, indicating two consecutive choruses with 2 C's may not make that much sense. We may indicate that a chorus is to be repeated on the sheet music or the tab sheets instead. So to sum up, I would see it as..

 

{ * Verse

  * Verse } A

 

{ * Pre-Chorus } B

 

{ * Chorus } C

 

{ * Verse } A

 

{ * Pre-Chorus } B

 

{ * Chorus

  * Chorus  } C

 

 

Interestingly, a song form where we do see two identical sections next to each other is the AAB form or the 12 Bar blues form. But sections are a little differently organised there because of a refrain instead of a full blown chorus.

 

I guess the point I'm trying to make is that the way we see song forms may ultimately depend on our purpose for it. Music goes all over the place in its contemporary form today. It may follow a trail to olden ways but it takes liberty in improvising (as it should). So a concept like song forms if used quite literally might make things complicated than help.

 

For more exploration, here's an article of the same. It'll lead you to larger articles to the individual song forms as well if you choose to look into it.

 

https://www.songstuff.com/song-writing/article/song-form-overview/

 

I hope this helps!

Wow, that is a very comprehensive answer. Really helped me clarifying it. Thanks a lot! 

[Cody]

@danilo Reading your interests I see you write mostly in Portuguese, such a beautiful sounding language, I don't understand it, but I don't need to   

 

great advise/help from @Mahesh only thing I could add is don't get too hung up on it(structure-wise) or everything will sound the same even if you use a flute instead of a guitar or get real fancy and play a minor scale instead of a major   

It's a great thing to learn/know I'll never be against learning anything, but I think each song needs to have a "feel" an expression, kind of hard to do if holding it in the box of a "formula" of past "hits"

 

If you were to ask Norah Jones, I enjoy her work as well , IF she was being honest...... I'd assume she'd probably say that's in the structure of how I felt at the time, don't box my songs in hahah, just a guess.  

[danilo]

@Cody sure thing! My interest in learning this is to make if differently 😁 but I think the more you know, more you are aware of what's different. Thanks  for the inputs!

[Cody]

2 minutes ago, danilo said:

@Cody sure thing! My interest in learning this is to make if differently 😁 but I think the more you know, more you are aware of what's different. Thanks  for the inputs!

 

yup yup, just know too many that get hung up on it and ruin(to me) otherwise great stuff! or think its not a song if not done in a particular way they know,  but eh.....you learn to ignore those opinions hahah, best of luck!

[Mahesh]

20 minutes ago, Cody said:

great advise/help from @Mahesh only thing I could add is don't get too hung up on it(structure-wise) or everything will sound the same even if you use a flute instead of a guitar or get real fancy and play a minor scale instead of a major   

It's a great thing to learn/know I'll never be against learning anything, but I think each song needs to have a "feel" an expression, kind of hard to do if holding it in the box of a "formula" of past "hits"

 

Well put, @Cody! Very true. They are ultimately only tools, not rules. You'd want any information or lack thereof to promote creativity, not curb it. And emotion, too!

 

19 minutes ago, danilo said:

My interest in learning this is to make if differently 😁 but I think the more you know, more you are aware of what's different. Thanks  for the inputs!

 

Absolutely! If you're curiously aware of patterns of understanding, you'll see it "pop up" quite intuitively when writing a song or listening to it. Those patterns become another perspective of looking at the same piece of art. Or maybe even a language. Gets fun when you start using that language to say what you want to say. Anyways, excuse my rambling. Glad it was of help! Cheers.

[Cody]

59 minutes ago, Mahesh said:

Or maybe even a language. Gets fun when you start using that language to say what you want to say. Anyways, excuse my rambling. Glad it was of help! Cheers.

 

I'm always intrigued when meeting someone....especially younger people, or people who think they have no artistic ability, and they basically already speak in song form ..heard a story about Snoop once and someone asked him how long he had spoken like that....he said since the day I was born.......I almost believe it hahahah

[john]

Just to add to the confusion, ABC as a named form is verse, chorus and bridge, usually as ABABCAB as the overall song form... however using ABC as your section names is perfectly fine.

 

Have you read Songstuff's articles on song form and song sections?

 

There's a bunch here:

 

https://www.songstuff.com/song-writing/article/