Want Your Opinion - 4 tracks, 8 parts

[Donna]

Hey all,

Please give me opinions on how you might record/bounce tracks of the following:

piano

organ

strings

bass

guitar

drums

voice

voice

Is that 8? And a possible 3rd voice (9 parts). OR a possible 2nd guitar.

The first four "could" be done via one track, on the stored-notes keyboard thing.

If anyone has patience, please say why you'd do it what way you think best, you cannot give too much info (ie "I think all music should be on 2 tracks - 2 tracks with the same 6 parts, so you can pan" blah blah blah).

I welcome divergent opinions. I'm having a time planning this out. That is, it's taking much longer than anticipated and the way I'm finding answers so far is what NOT to do thru having been proved a certain way miserable.

Therefore, I'm going to be obedient and listen.

Just shut me up and get me working. With sincere thanks...

Edited March 13, 2006 by Donna

[ATom2]

Buy at least an 8track recorder.

Sorry, but this would drive me mad.

[Nick Blair]

Hey all,

Please give me opinions on how you might record/bounce tracks of the following:

piano

organ

strings

bass

guitar

drums

voice

voice

Is that 8? And a possible 3rd voice (9 parts). OR a possible 2nd guitar.

The first four "could" be done via one track, on the stored-notes keyboard thing.

If anyone has patience, please say why you'd do it what way you think best, you cannot give too much info (ie "I think all music should be on 2 tracks - 2 tracks with the same 6 parts, so you can pan" blah blah blah).

I welcome divergent opinions. I'm having a time planning this out. That is, it's taking much longer than anticipated and the way I'm finding answers so far is what NOT to do thru having been proved a certain way miserable.

Therefore, I'm going to be obedient and listen.

Just shut me up and get me working. With sincere thanks...

There's a reasonable article here.

[Donna]

ATom, you are right.

Nick, thanks for the link. This part I get...maybe if anyone would tell me how they would mix normally...do people prefer all the same instrument on one track (a "keyboard track", eg), or what?

I guess answering the original question might be difficult if one has enough tracks to record each part.

PS: It is enough for me to have a conversation about this, even if what people post regards their (more tracks than mine) situation. Somehow frees up the brain to figure it out from here...

Edited March 13, 2006 by Donna

[Steve]

I would consider looking at whether you actually need all those instrument? For example. Do you really need to have strings AND Organ?

I think if I were you, I would try recording the basis of the song to the 4 tracks. i.e. Drums, Bass, Guitar and Piano, mix that to a good stereo cassette tape and play it back into the 4 track! That will give you at least 2 empty tracks for voice, or three if you want to record in mono, freeing up the last track for strings! I also think you should seriously, seriously consider using the PC as a recording device!

[Donna]

Steve, I know, I'm avoiding the PC "for now" for good reason, tho. But maybe it'd be less of a headache than everything else is and I am deceiving myself!

I thought it must have both strings and organ cause I (blank) as a keyboardist, lol. But I'll think on that, too.

[Steve]

Steve, I know, I'm avoiding the PC "for now" for good reason, tho. But maybe it'd be less of a headache than everything else is and I am deceiving myself!

I thought it must have both strings and organ cause I (blank) as a keyboardist, lol. But I'll think on that, too.

Sometimes less is more! By using the keyboard as an input for strings, you should only need a few notes!

If you start using the PC, you can record the keyboard as a midi stream. This will enable you to go in and edit every single note if you so wish. Thats how I use the keyboard! I can hardly string 3 notes together as a piano piece but it hasn't stopped me doing things like THIS. You don't need a powerful computer to do this, I used to use my old Amiga for midi, and then record to my four track. If you need some help? There are plenty of willing people on these boards!

[john]

Hey Donna

Ok, without changing your set up there are lots of factors to consider. You're right some planning makes all the difference.

The main 4 questions I'd ask would be:

Is there an order of recording that enhances the performance of the other tracks?

Which tracks would be best recorded in stereo and which in mono?

Which tracks would I want to retain control over until as late in the process as possible?

Which tracks can easily be grouped together for mixing and which can't?

For example keeping the drums in stereo is important to give your mix depth.

Lastly it should be worth asking yourself what parts are difficult to play, which tracks easy? For example if the guitar part was particularly bad you might want to keep it separate as late as possible.

As Steve says simplifying the options is also a possibility.

The stereo issue is a biggy. To do this you need to have 2 tracks available for playback while you record on the other 2. As soon as you introduce a track you want to keep separate you can't do stereo bounces.

On the keyboards, why not sequence up the piano, string and organ parts. You keyboard can record sequences for several parts on your keyboard? Control the stereo panning of these tracks using your sequencer. Then take the stereo output from the keys into input 1 and 2 as a stereo pair. Use a visual metronome to play the drums (that way you won't record the click) as a stereo pair into inputs 3 and 4. Pan 1 and 3 full left, 3 and 4 full right. Set track 1 to record the left mix buss and track 2 to record the right buss.

Now record guitar and bass. Your existing tracks are on 1 and 2. Set these tracks to play. keep the panning full left and full right. Plug the guitar in 3 and the bass in 4. Set track 3 to record buss left, 4 to record buss right. Try to record the bass and guitar together, where the guitarists and bassist can maintain eye contact. Do as many takes as necessary until you get it right. Use input 3 and 4 panning to place the bass and guitar and bass in the stereo field.

Now you can record the vocals onto tracks 1 and 2 with everything else on 3 and 4 and you've only done 1 bounce .

Cheers

John

[Donna]

I am going to print this, John. I really appreciate it.

Just to be sure, the above scenario would ultimately have:

*piano, organ, strings, guitar (track 3)

* drums, bass (track 4)

I would then need a 1/4 inch "Y" cord from the keyboard to inputs 1 and 2 - and record the drums with two mics (for inputs 3 and 4).

To use "input 3 and 4 panning to place the bass and guitar in the stereo field" do you mean dead center or 10/2 o'clock panning?

Did you on purpose put the higher k things (keys) and lower things (bass drums) together?

The metronome is a BAD scene but I'm willing to try again since I vowed to be docile. Both keyboard and guitar are sick and may need hospitalization, been feeling like the legion of doom...so this is meat to sink my mind into meanwhile and I can practice parts w/ spare kiddie instruments on hand or just drums and vox.

[Donna]

Steve wrote:

Sometimes less is more! By using the keyboard as an input for strings, you should only need a few notes!

If you start using the PC, you can record the keyboard as a midi stream. This will enable you to go in and edit every single note if you so wish. Thats how I use the keyboard! I can hardly string 3 notes together as a piano piece but it hasn't stopped me doing things like THIS. You don't need a powerful computer to do this, I used to use my old Amiga for midi, and then record to my four track. If you need some help? There are plenty of willing people on these boards!

Yeah, I agree in less can be more. The strings are flourishes so far, except at song's end and the organ about the same. Hardly worth their own track - but that's the deal.

Actually, the way you lay out recording the keyboard as a midi stream sounds relaxing and doable! I will def. keep this on a burner in the mind. Thanks for the keyboard example - I get it. Hmm, Mr. Bowen isn't the only one classically influenced here.

I think half of it is the range of choices. Begin feeling like a quilter (those women are crazy!). It makes one want a manager at times...

[john]

I am going to print this, John. I really appreciate it.

Just to be sure, the above scenario would ultimately have:

*piano, organ, strings, guitar (track 3)

* drums, bass (track 4)

I would then need a 1/4 inch "Y" cord from the keyboard to inputs 1 and 2 - and record the drums with two mics (for inputs 3 and 4).

To use "input 3 and 4 panning to place the bass and guitar in the stereo field" do you mean dead center or 10/2 o'clock panning?

Did you on purpose put the higher k things (keys) and lower things (bass drums) together?

The metronome is a BAD scene but I'm willing to try again since I vowed to be docile. Both keyboard and guitar are sick and may need hospitalization, been feeling like the legion of doom...so this is meat to sink my mind into meanwhile and I can practice parts w/ spare kiddie instruments on hand or just drums and vox.

Hey Donna

Eh, nope.

What you do with the inputs, and what the tracks record aren't the same thing. You should be able to do all this with the 246 though I'm not sure of the specifics.

The piano, organ and strings are played back simultaneously in stereo (I assume your keyboard is stereo). So keyboard output L to input 1, keyboard output R to input 2. Drum mic L to input 3, Drum mic R to input 4. The 4 inputs are then mapped to tracks 1 and 2 using panning and setting the track to record the mix buss so:

Stage 1:

Keys is the piano, strings and organ played back by the keyboard sequencer in stereo.

Instrument - Input - Pan - Track

Keys Left ----- 1 ------ L ------ 1

Keys Right ---- 2 ------ R ----- 2

Drums Left --- 3 ------- L ----- 1

Drums Right -- 4 ------ R ----- 2

Stage 2:

Track 1 and 2 are played back, Panning on the guitar and bass can vary from full Left to full right.

Instrument - Input - Pan - Track

Track 1 ------ x ------ L ------ 3

Track 2 ------ x ------ R ------ 4

Bass --------- 3 ------ ~ ----- 3

Guitar -------- 4 ------ ~ ----- 4

Now you have track 3 and trak 4 as a stereo mix of all the tracks. You can now record vocals to track 1 and 2.

This gives:

1 Vocal 1

2 Vocal 2

3 Mix left (Guitar, Bass, Piano, Organ, Strings, Drums)

4 Mix right (Guitar, Bass, Piano, Organ, Strings, Drums)

Obviously if the Guitar and Bass were panned hard left or right, they will not be present in the other mix channel.

Be aware that you need to pay attention to mixing, including track EQ at recording time.

Cheers

John

[Donna]

Thanks John!

Cheers!

Donna

[john]

Obviously if the Guitar and Bass were panned hard left or right, they will not be present in the other mix channel.

Hey Donna

Just to add to that, if the bass or guitar was panned central it will be equally present inboth channels of the mix.

Also, if you are planning on using 4 mics for your drums (left and right ambient, bass, snare) then just make bass drum and snare inputs 5 and 6, routed to track 1 and 2. You'll need to position them in the stereo field in a position that corresponds to the position they show up in the ambient stereo pair.

Cheers

John

[Donna]

Hey John,

That's a good suggestion about using inputs 5 & 6 for drums.

The piano, organ and strings are played back simultaneously in stereo (I assume your keyboard is stereo). So keyboard output L to input 1, keyboard output R to input 2

The keyboard has one 1/4 inch output...would it work then to have a Y cord so both 1 and 2 inputs can play or record at same time?

There is also an issue with input one being non-functional, but I guess I could use input five instead.

Also, it's always been an issue, getting eq levels for recording drums. Do you think it's worth it to move the whole set up (either four track or drum kit) to another room for this purpose? Hm, then I'd only need to grow 40 ft long arms! I guess some neighbor can hit the skins while I eq, if I go this route.

Donna

[john]

Hey John,

That's a good suggestion about using inputs 5 & 6 for drums.

The keyboard has one 1/4 inch output...would it work then to have a Y cord so both 1 and 2 inputs can play or record at same time?

Yep, although I prefer the splitter jacks than the y cords. The tend to be less prone to problems. You should be able to get them at your local radioshack if nowhere else. They work exactly like the y cord except it.s all in one moulded jack.

There is also an issue with input one being non-functional, but I guess I could use input five instead.

Also, it's always been an issue, getting eq levels for recording drums. Do you think it's worth it to move the whole set up (either four track or drum kit) to another room for this purpose? Hm, then I'd only need to grow 40 ft long arms! I guess some neighbor can hit the skins while I eq, if I go this route.

I take it that the problem is being able to hear or properly distinguish the sound of the drum through your desk versus the drum through the air as you hit it?

You can improve the situation with decent closed back headphones, but they won't be cheap ~ $100 - $200. It won't sort it, but it will help. They are designed for reducing spill from inside the headphones leaking out, but they work pretty well the other way.

The simplest other way is more or less as you suggest and either getting someone to hit the drum while you man the desk, or probably better is to train them to man the desk while you hit the drums. Either way do some trial recordings of the loudest passages of the song when you think you are close.

With the method I mention in the above posts you'll need to be careful. Leave lots of headroom. You'll be bouncing tracks together, or recording multiple sources onto the same source. In this case it is the cummulative volume of the tracks that is recorded. So for your first recording the drums and 3 keyboard lines will be recorded to two tracks. If you don't leave enough headroom individual dynamic spikes can easily blow your levels.

Cheers

John

[Donna]

Yeah, I understand - and the spikes have already happened with just the keyboard lines alone. I think there's someone who may be able to man the desk, now that I think of it...

OK, splitter jacks (sounds like something to chop wood with) - thanks!

I do have AKG headphones which need repair.

Lotta stuff. Thanks a lot, John!!

Cheers

[Prometheus]

Steve, I know, I'm avoiding the PC "for now" for good reason, tho. But maybe it'd be less of a headache than everything else is and I am deceiving myself!

I thought it must have both strings and organ cause I (blank) as a keyboardist, lol. But I'll think on that, too.

I honestly think Donna, the PC is definitely the way to go on this, even if you record using the 4-Track TASCAM and then bounce into the PC... Once you've learned to use Cubase or whatever sequencer of your choice, you'll never look back... The digital multitrack sequencers are not as daunting as you might think, you'll recognise many of the controls in them from the TASCAM machine, and you'll have plenty of people in Internet land who are willing to lend a hand...

Trying to do huge mixes purely in analogue is a nightmare... I would scream with fright at the very thought of it!

piano

organ

strings

bass

guitar

drums

voice

voice

In order to get separation with all this, think about rolling off some low end on most of the instruments there so your bass and kick drum cut through... On vocals and guitar, you can afford to roll off below 100 hertz quite savagely, and a cut at 200Hz seems to help a lot of guitar sounds... These are just rules of thumb though, trust your ears... One of the advantages of computer based mixing would be that you could download effects like compression and EQ for free...

One point I cannot over emphasise. A lot of people think that common sense dictates that soloing up tracks and making them sound nice on their own will create a great overall sound when they are played together in the mix. Nothing in a hundred years of experience with this technology suggests that this is anything like a sensible approach, it usually leads to disaster... It is what the bigger picture sounds like that matters, not the individual tracks...

Edited March 16, 2006 by Prometheus

[john]

Don't be scared!

I have to agree with everything you've just said (apart from the analogue mix bit. funnily enough on a manual desk doing a mix becomes like playing another musical instrument ).

Good to see you back Prometheus... got any new tracks for us to hear?

Cheers

John

[Prometheus]

I certainly do... Just need to find somewhere to upload them...

[Prometheus]

Don't be scared!

I have to agree with everything you've just said (apart from the analogue mix bit. funnily enough on a manual desk doing a mix becomes like playing another musical instrument ).

Good to see you back Prometheus... got any new tracks for us to hear?

Cheers

John

I must admit, I wouldn't do without an analogue desk either, There are certain things that I still don't think "feel" right when they are done purely in the digital domain... I do love the automation in Cubase though... Although it is something I think is a bit over done these days... When I first started in this game, the mix was a performance just as much as playing an instrument was... I think that's something that has been lost a bit in the digital age...

Edited March 16, 2006 by Prometheus