Hooks

[john]

Hey

Hooks, what makes a good one?

I think it would be beneficial to discuss hooks of all kinds (not just lyrical) with the aim of more clearly defining what one is, and what makes some stronger and some weaker.

Let's try and get as many on as possible. Say Wednesday 15th?

Cheers

John

[Nightwolf]

Let's say we start with a definition, a "hook" to me is the part of the Song that gets stuck in your head, not because it is repeated over and over. My thoughts are that it works the other way around, that the hook gets repeated because the writer realizes that it is the strongest part of the Song and uses that to his/her advantage, sometimes to the point where we hope we never hear the Song again

For me, the hook is where I usually start, I come up with a line of Lyric or a riff and think "damn, that's cool, I wonder what I can wrap around it to make it 4 minutes long". OK, so my Song writing goes a little deeper than that, but I think it is a good example for the purpose of this discussion.

Thought???

[phantomengineer]

The hook for me is usually lyrical to begin with (simply because I almost always work lyrics-first). It is a line that usually encapsulates an idea, message, or story and which can be used as a centerpiece to construct the rest of the song. Sometimes this hook will find it's way into the chorus, but oftentimes it will serve as the final line to the final verse or bridge, to drive home the point of the song.

Roughly what time on the 15th, John?

[Rudi]

For my writing at least, a hook is often the least visible portion of the song, being the foundation stone of the whole thing. Take it out & the whole thing collapses. At its most elemental it is usually just two notes.

I think the most interesting hooks are phrasing ones. I consider that in certain pop songs the Police did, the hook is the bass line. Think of 'Beds Too Big Without You' or 'Walkin On the Moon'. The bass is likely the first thing that pops into your head when you think of those tunes.

[john]

Hey

I moved a topic on lyrical hooks into the workshop, http://forums.songstuff.com/index.php?showtopic=7393 . It captures quite a lot of points purely about lyrical hooks.

There are however other kinds of hook. Melodic, rhythmic, chord progressions, harmonic....

For me, a hook has to have two primary qualities:

It catches the attention

It is memorable

Placement of different hooks is important, and positioning varies according to song form. You can use a hook anywhere, however specific locations result in stronger hooks. As mentioned elsewhere repetition helps.

It should be worth exploring song forms and hook placement, and trying to work through why one hook works better than another, or the implications of choosing one hook over another.

The point is not to be formulaic, but to understand. Knowledge of what works and why helps us to communicate with the listener more effectively.

Cheers

John

[john]

The hook for me is usually lyrical to begin with (simply because I almost always work lyrics-first). It is a line that usually encapsulates an idea, message, or story and which can be used as a centerpiece to construct the rest of the song. Sometimes this hook will find it's way into the chorus, but oftentimes it will serve as the final line to the final verse or bridge, to drive home the point of the song.

Roughly what time on the 15th, John?

Hey Tom

Thinking of the timezone problem I'm thinking we should just try and make sure we interact, as much as possible, in the workshop topics. The idea being that we can work through and exchange ideas quickly. It would be better if we were all here at the same time, but it's a bit impractical.

Cheers

John

[Steve]

I think we could do with an example of different hooks. I'd suggest 'Don't Fear the Reaper' Blue Oyster Cult as an example of a melodic AND a lyrical hook. I have no idea what the song is about? but it is instantly recognizable by the guitar intro 'hook' which repeats throughout the song. Another example of something completely different but again instantly recognizable is 'Close to You' Burt Bacharach. Made famous by the Carpenters. The simple piano arpeggio is a great hook!

Edited August 15, 2007 by Steve
spollink errerrerrs

[Nightwolf]

Excellent idea Steve, an example of another sort would be "Right Place Wrong Time" by Dr. John, virtually no one would recognize this song until the chorus kicks in..at which point they start singing along. I think a lot of Songs you can get away with just about anything for the rest of the tune and no one would notice as long as the hook is strong and memorable.

[john]

Hey

Maybe true in some genres, but getting a variety of key hooks in the right place really helps.

I think you need one main lyrical hook. All others should be less emphasised.

Musical hooks you can get away with several strong hooks, though I think one fantastic hook is better than 4 mediocre ones.

One type of hook that is becoming more popular is production hooks.

The most popular songs seem to have a good balance of hooks of various kinds spread through the song. Same for popular albums.

Cheers

John

[Steve]

I suppose it could also work against you! i.e. The above mentioned guitar hook in 'Don't Fear The Reaper' might sound less convincing played on a ukelele! In other words, the guitar 'sounds' right in this particular context!

[john]

absolutely. A song is not the hook alone, it's a the combination that makes the hook stronger. When you get to types of sound a lot of appeal is fashion. I guess there are elements of hooks that could be fashionable, but there are definately aspects that tend to be more enduring. Think of folk songs that get you tapping your feet and singing along. Old music, but the hooks still work.

[john]

What do you think makes for a good hook? I don't mean repeating it or placement. I mean the actual words.

How about the Beatles "Love me do" chorus:

Love, love me do

You know I love you

I'll always be true

So please love me do

What's the hook? Why do you think it works? How do you think it works?

[john]

Hey

Nicely worked through. I guess it unashamedly states what it is about. In this particular song they use an understated melodic hook on the "please" to set up the final love me do which all serves to underline the final lyrical hook even more.

A common subject, but as usual with the Beatles a well constructed song. I can't remember any particularly rhythmic hooks in this one, other than perhaps the lyrical phrasing of the chorus.

Rhythmic hooks are really interesting things. Look at Queen's "We Will Rock You". What a simple, but effective start that's hook all the way.

Cheers

John

[john]

yeah. It was a not only simple, but it the sounds used (stomp and clap) meant that anyone was encouraged to join in.

It's also a great way to bring in a cross over audience without it being to overt.

[musicthom]

A hook for me could be anything from a lyrical one to a drum section or a simple violin piece but i think it was steve who commented that it wouldnt be the same play out of context or with the wrong instrument its got t be just right but a lot of experimenting for me can help with this and i guess somtimes instinct can tell you that somthings not right

[Steve]

A hook for me could be anything from a lyrical one to a drum section or a simple violin piece but i think it was steve who commented that it wouldnt be the same play out of context or with the wrong instrument its got t be just right but a lot of experimenting for me can help with this and i guess somtimes instinct can tell you that somthings not right

Mind you, sometimes it can work the other way! I recorded a song with a piano solo intro. After playing back several times, I changed it to a penny whistle, which I think worked a lot better! So it might be worth experimenting!