Nearfields

[BongStuff]

Folks - the absynth thread was discussing nearfield monitors. So far it's "NS10s are rubbish"  

...anyone who missed the thread got any recommendations on nearfield monitors?

  BS

[Didier]

Hi Bongstuff,

So, no answers? (and I'm, too, interested by the answers)

Where are the pros gone?  :

Didier

[davlan]

I was talking to someone who rents a small studio the owner of which has just bought a set of monitors for £35000.

The point being is howmuchagottaspend!

You need to go listen to some of these boxes and make your own mind up.

[Steve]

Ia set of monitors for £35000.

Bloody Hell! Thats more than my first 2 houses cost put together! Can there actually be any justification for money like that being spent!??

[john]

Hi

Urged on by Didier  , I have to say the ones I tend to like are Tannoy. I currently have Tannoy M1, but hopefully in the New2 Year I'll pick up a set of Tannoy Reveals. I've used various tannoy monitors over the years and for a reaonable budget (usually £100 - £700 a pair) you can pick up a set of monitors which have a better performance than other in their price range.

I tend to find that most monitors are a bit too trebly at the lower price range. If you use hifi speakers, like my M1, you will notice this more, although I have to say NS 10s are pucker monitors, but they colour the sound more than most hifi speakers!

Tannoy reveals are about £200 a matched pair, and Tannoy Reveal Actives are about £400 a matched pair.

Ultimately I'd recommend goig to a shop and listening to a known CD played through a known system (if you can be bothered) or take along the speakers/monitors you use too and play the CD through them first.

Cheers

John

[Didier]

Urged on by Didier  ,

Thanks John,

I have to say the ones I tend to like are Tannoy. I currently have Tannoy M1, but hopefully in the New2 Year I'll pick up a set of Tannoy Reveals. I've used various tannoy monitors over the years and for a reaonable budget (usually £100 - £700 a pair) you can pick up a set of monitors which have a better performance than other in their price range.

My monitors are DigiDesign DD161, and I paid them something like £400.

I tend to find that most monitors are a bit too trebly at the lower price range. If you use hifi speakers, like my M1, you will notice this more, although I have to say NS 10s are pucker monitors, but they colour the sound more than most hifi speakers!

Agreed, I really dislike NS10s.

Ultimately I'd recommend goig to a shop and listening to a known CD played through a known system (if you can be bothered)

That's what I did when I purchased mine. I'm quite happy with them.

The issue I have is with low-end: I do a "good" mix (at least I like it), and all would be fine when listened on my hi-fi and car stereo (my ultimate mix validation), except suddenly "sub-basses" appear from nowhere, thus ruining my mix. Eventually, I have to mix the low-end blindly, which is not a comfortable situation.

I would be interested to know how you deal with that.

Didier

[Steve]

I have just linked up my Aiwa Hi-Fi speakers to my computer and am quite astonished at how different the sound is from my sennheiser headphones! I will definately have to get some proper monitors...  :'(

[john]

Hi

You can deal with too much bass or a boader ranging bass in a number of ways, but you should do your homework on the monitors you are using. Find out the frequency range of the speakers, and if any figures are available for attenuation at the bass cut-off frequency, get them too.

You can still take some steps to improve the situation without these figures.

1. Use a reference Hi Fi with an line input and run it from your mixer or line level stereo output. Adjust the bass boost on your normal studio amp until the sound is approximately the same. Now when you put a mix together you will mix the sound for how it sounds on a normal hi fi. This only approximates a solution.

2. Use a software app like wavelab to perform a spectrum analysis on your track. You can then apply an EQ treatment to compensate.

Hope this helps.

Cheers

John

[Didier]

You can deal with too much bass or a boader ranging bass in a number of ways, but you should do your homework on the monitors you are using. Find out the frequency range of the speakers, and if any figures are available for attenuation at the bass cut-off frequency, get them too.

Hi John,

Thanks for the answers.

I have the information provided with the monitors.

It is somewhat confusing.

"Bass response is very flat and very tight to 55 Hz"

"Frequency Response (+-2db) 52Hz - 20 kHz"

But the provided frequency curve stops at 200 Hz, where the attenuation begins, while it goes up to 20kHz.

Since the curve shows an attenuation of (at least, it is not very precise) 3 dB at 200 Hz, I find it hard to believe it is totally flat from that point down to 52 Hz.

You can still take some steps to improve the situation without these figures.

1. Use a reference Hi Fi with an line input and run it from your mixer or line level stereo output. Adjust the bass boost on your normal studio amp until the sound is approximately the same. Now when you put a mix together you will mix the sound for how it sounds on a normal hi fi. This only approximates a solution.

Sounds like a good idea.

Now my studio amp, which is supposed to be a real studio amp, has no bass boost, or any setup whatsoever, except the volume. And my mixer (as most), as no EQ on the mains.

To apply this idea, I would have to introduce an EQ between the mains of my mixer and the amp.

That could be done, and is perhaps an option.

2. Use a software app like wavelab to perform a spectrum analysis on your track. You can then apply an EQ treatment to compensate.

I'm not using a computer for audio. But even then, I wouldn't like too much the idea. It would allow to "normalise" the tracks ("frequencywise"), but it would still be a "deaf" operation. My questions (even to myself ) are more how can I have a setup which allows me to mix using my ears.

Hope this helps.

Thanks for the advices. They are sound and sensible, to make the most of my current setup.

I read once: 'you cannot EQ a bass drum on less than an 8" '(I think it was 8 ").

My pondering on this "issue" was more on the line of:

you cannot mix something your hardware cannot reproduce. So either inserting an EQ before my amp would be enough, or I would have to consider other solutions. The ones I have considered are:

- adding a sub-woofer. Which would mean also adding a crossover and an amp.

- buying "large" monitors, not necessarily great ones, but accurate enough on the lows to EQ/set volumes of basses, bass drums, etc..

- changing my monitors, either to a cross between nearfields and "classic" reference monitors, or to a combo of nearfields and a sub-woofer.

Any thoughts on these options?

Didier

[john]

Hi Didier

Not very clear is it? There may be a further drop off at 55Hz. You know, 20db/decade at 200Hz, 60db/decade at 55Hz. Are you sure the figures quoted aren't specific to range speakers within the monitor housing? You know the woofer, mid and tweeter?

If it is 200Hz, that isn't very good.

If your desk has groups, why not assign all tracks to a group ( you could do it with Aux too), EQ the signal in the group/aux pair, and monitor that (just as a reference to check your mix). You could then Play either the group/aux or other signals by using solo buttons.

If you buy an outboard EQ, get a graphic (there is a really good 32 channel stereo one that isn't to expensive, (Alesis I think, I'll check)) and if you haven't got a patchbay, consider one. Something like the Behringer Ultrapatch (about £50). That way you have a good degree of flexibility.

As far as speakers and amps go, borrow an amp that allows you to do as suggested before you go and spend a lot of money. If you can, an amp that will allow you to switch speakers (you know the kind).

Large speakers are useful, if you have a well treated control room. If not, the extra bass is tiring on the ears (believe me, I've used Tannoy little reds). Either way, checking a mix on multiple speaker setups using the same amp can be very useful.

For these reasons, if you can afford it, don't replace your current monitors. Create options for your mix environment, including something that can easily represent a normal hifi environment.

Cheers

John

[Didier]

Hi Didier

Hi John,

I missed your reply until today. There must be some kind of glitch in the "notify" thingie.

Not very clear is it? There may be a further drop off at 55Hz. You know, 20db/decade at 200Hz, 60db/decade at 55Hz. Are you sure the figures quoted aren't specific to range speakers within the monitor housing? You know the woofer, mid and tweeter?

I wouldn't know. The specs I quoted is all I have regarding these monitors, which only contain a woofer (or mid) and a tweeter, by the way. If you're interested, I could send you a scan of the data sheet.

I couldn't find anything on the Internet, the maker has apparently decided to concentrate exclusively on car audio tuning. You know: loudness contests. The heros seem to reach 168 db!

If it is 200Hz, that isn't very good.

Indeed.

If your desk has groups, why not assign all tracks to a group ( you could do it with Aux too), EQ the signal in the group/aux pair, and monitor that (just as a reference to check your mix). You could then Play either the group/aux or other signals by using solo buttons.

Interesting suggestion. As luck would have it, neither my groups or aux have EQ

But I could still route to my second mixer on normal tracks, and EQ there.

If you buy an outboard EQ, get a graphic (there is a really good 32 channel stereo one that isn't to expensive, (Alesis I think, I'll check))

Yes, Alesis has one. To experiment, I can use the little mixer that went with my 4 tracks. It is definitely not hifi, but it has a graphic EQ, which will allow me to test the idea.

and if you haven't got a patchbay, consider one. Something like the Behringer Ultrapatch (about £50). That way you have a good degree of flexibility.

I am not always as lame as I seem to be

I have 3 patchbays, plus the connections on my recorder/mixer are layed out horizontally, which makes a 4th one, plus the mixer of my 4 tracks is connected through a proprietary patchbay.

As far as speakers and amps go, borrow an amp that allows you to do as suggested before you go and spend a lot of money. If you can, an amp that will allow you to switch speakers (you know the kind).

As far as switching speakers, wouldn't a speaker switch box be enough (I have one or two of these things)?

Large speakers are useful, if you have a well treated control room. If not, the extra bass is tiring on the ears (believe me, I've used Tannoy little reds).

Agreed.

Either way, checking a mix on multiple speaker setups using the same amp can be very useful.

That's perhaps where my setup failed in the past. Before I bought my current monitors, I was mixing on 3 different setups, but each of those setups included a different amp.

That's why I was so happy using only my monitors, until this bass issue occured

It occured, I guess, because the sources I use contain much more basses than before.

For these reasons, if you can afford it, don't replace your current monitors. Create options for your mix environment, including something that can easily represent a normal hifi environment.

I will try the graphic EQ trick. I'm thinking also of using again the "large" hifi monitors I was using in the past, if the EQ is not enough to have something convincing. But, of course, all these experiments will take a lot of time.

Thanks for these advices.

No comment on subwoofers, then?

Didier

[Didier]

For these reasons, if you can afford it, don't replace your current monitors. Create options for your mix environment, including something that can easily represent a normal hifi environment.

Hi John,

Follow-up on my monitoring environment.

First, A/B testing my reference monitors with my hi-fi.

Apart from the fact it was a real mess to move the hi-fi in the studio, it was an interesting experience. My hi-fi, which sound as having much more bass than my normal mixes in my living room, has much less bass in my studio. So, clearly, my monitors are not the issue here.

To be sure, I also tested "old" (origine unknown) Inkel "large" 3-ways hi-fi monitors, and small compact BASF monitors (my multimedia speakers). Both sounded as having much less bass than my reference monitors, whatever the source (commercial CD, my own mixes, etc.)

I will not implement your suggestion of using alternate hi-fi monitors to check my mixes. The sound I obtained through my trials with hi-fi speakers was a real mess, compared to my reference monitors. The higher frequency curve of these hi-fi monitors could have been useful (as a check), but my reference monitors have a "not accurate" position, which mimics quite exactly the frequency curve of the hi-fi monitors.

As a conclusion, it would appear that my studio is "dead" on some bass frequencies, which would explain why I tend to over increase the basses, or not hear them when there are present on some synth sounds, even with the EQ off.

Secondly, inserting an EQ before the studio amp.

This was also an interesting test. The EQ I used is the small graphic EQ from the mixer of the MT44 4 track.

This EQ has 60/150/400/1K/2.4/6K/15K, +-12 dB.

I boosted 60 Hz +12dB, and 150 + 6dB.

Interestingly, this boost has no nearly no effect on commercial (i.e. mastered) CDs, whatever the speakers/headphones.

So, when I hear a clear rumble with this EQ, I'm now quite sure there's an issue with the basses.

Thanks for your advices, they have allowed to pinpoint quite exactly some issues.

Next (long term) thing to do now is trying to think of some ways to correct the studio for this bass issue.

Didier

[john]

Thanks for the update Didier.

Did you try swapping out the amp?

Cheers

John

[Didier]

Thanks for the update Didier.

Did you try swapping out the amp?

Hi John,

Not yet, because I have to find somebody lending me an amp

It will depend what my dealer has in stock. He usually has more the PA amp stuff, rather than studio ones.

But it's a good suggestion. My amp might be weak on basses. I noticed that when I push the lows (with the EQ), the amp is clipping quite early.

Didier

[Didier]

Thanks for the update Didier.

Did you try swapping out the amp?

Hi John,

(very) Late update.

I have finally been able to try another amp on my monitors.

The new one is an Alesis RA-150.

It's like night and day.

No really anymore bass issues (so it was not really a room problem, after all), I have nearly the impression of having added a woofer.

The transients are much (much) faster, so I can hear all the harshness I was letting slip.

The stereo image is much more centered and stable.

(I'll post a short review of the RA-150).

Didier