Lazz

My feelings are similar I fear. I mean, if I want to hear Harry Partch then I listen to Harry Partch. However, having said that, and even sharing your likely preference for his prior, more regular crafted song-writerly songs, the changes do seem to have worked in his favour. There's a lot of folk who like wierd shit cos it's wierd, and I remember during that period when we both dug him the regional WEA rep complaining to me that Waits was "stiffing out" for the company. And pretty soon they parted ways. I still like him having success, though.

I knew Nigel would go for Springsteen. I guessed Hari would choose Zappa. I had an idea that Evans might name Ian Dury. I had an idea that Steve might pick young Phantom I didn't know Waits went mad. Is there a prize?

I agree HIC! (Sorry, I just popped out for a pee and didn't realise anyone was in here.) Neat thing I think about this is that problem-solutions become more achievable. Because they're goal defined. Everything I have learned, skills etc, has been in pursuit a goal, a vision, a concept.

Yes. I agree this is probable. It works fine under other circumstances. Yes. Easily. Would you then suggest re-installation? Hey - Now this quote thing isn't happening either.

If only I had have done that sort of transcription stuff in my teens then my ear would have been already tuned-up slick enough in the active dotage I'm coping with now. But I didn't begin to take myself seriously and start teaching myself music until my 30's so I am a little behind (a small bum) and still feel the more of this kind of exercise I do (when I have time) the better I get (by inches). So that's how you do it - it is a memory thing in your inner ear! Thanks.

Hear that! Maybe the damn thing is only any use to me, then. I do transcriptions solely as ear-hole training exercises with no intention of playing the buggers, and if I want to work on some blistering saxophone solo by the likes of Charlie Parker then being able to slow the pace down is certainly a welcome advantage. Been trying to work out the parts for some screwy regae-oid sax-quartet piece by The Borneo Horns and it's plaguing the life out of me. Taking me ages. I reckon it will help with that, for instance. And I harbour the illusion that this kind of work aids my own puny attempts at arranging once I figure out what's really going on - as opposed to an approximation of it.

Seems like I have the same problems as Donna with WinAmp. My default player is Windows Media Player - but WinAnp persists in running from the Songstuff links I choose. Correction: it persists in appearing but refuses to actually operate as far as playing tracks goes. I have a high-speed cable connection and purge regularly with Ad-Aware and Search&Destroy, so none of that would appear to be the cause of the problem in my case. Besides, For internet radio streams WinAmp works perfectly ok. My only effective solution if there is something I really wish to listen to from one of the people here, is to download the file onto my computer, and then listen using Windows Media Player. Like Steve, I dislike WinAmp because of the unnecessary problems.

Hey Rudi - how do you do that? Is it a memory thing in your inner ear? Or do you just naturally hear it on your instrument? I have neither response to nor need for any of the other tricks it does, but I find transcription and analysis a truly beneficial exercise, and hence a tool that slows down passages (without changing pitch) and enables me to catch the notation correctly is a very valuable learning device for me. There have been a few gizmos around that do the same job, but this is the first I've got for free that just sits in the computer to do its stuff.

Excellent tool. Thank you.

Of course, you are right. But I think they had to be around for a while first before any claims they were adding something "new" as well as professional to the great river of tradition. I guess most of 'em are knocking on a bit. Joe Henderson is dead now, for example. And Sonny won't be far behind. Loads of other old guys in that list, too. And those that aren't old are definitely middle-aged. With kids and household expenses. But making new music every time they play is what they do professionally, and none of them seemed to have slowed down any in that department. The Jim Hall I heard last year was a frail old bent geezer who looked like a neighbourhood cobbler but, instead of the cool and tasty interplay of that same trio thirty years previous, he played a solid body fender of some description standing up the whole time and only crouching down to adjust his electrickery. Wow. Seventy-five years old and he is still seeking and finding new sounds. Spontaneous improvisations, Ornette tunes... the guy was "out". A year before that I caught up with Mark Murphy for what also might turn out to be the last time. He'd already turned seventy and to tell you the truth I wasn't expecting much. Most times before I found the tendency towards cabaret schtick just too wearying. And the wigs are hard to take seriously. But this time was the finest I have ever seen him. Breaking new ground in performance like he has no time to mess around any more. And how about Roy Haynes on this sunner's circuit. Good grief, guys. I have Charlie Parker ecords with Haynes playing. Celebrated his eightieth that March and yet he played like an eighteen year old. Nothing dated or old in his approach. All new. Nothing short of amazing. Speaking of popular music, you could be right. I just don't spend a great deal of time listening to it. Maybe for that very reason. Every now and then I'll make a studied effort to check out something that's supposed to be happening, but haven't found much yet. Couple of months ago I finally got around to listening to that dead guy's "Smells Like Teen Spirit", for example. While it's obvious even to me that Nirvana captured some sort of zeitgeist that was abroad and out there at the time, I'm fortunately way out of the loop on all that kind of stuff and just didn't get it. Meanwhile, I'm still thinking about your term "music of popular continuity", Rudi. I think it may be an oxymoron.

Dunno - the Executive (Alistair, Steve and Tom) can tell you. But they seem to be a fussy lot. Just ask Nigel.

Hey - did somebody call me? © 2005 FINN ARILD This one tells folk that the copyright for the song lies with Finn Arild (P) © 2005 FINN ARILD MUSIC This one refers to the actual CD recording that Finn Arild Music has had pressed, and tells folk that ownership of this particular recording and package lies with the company. You need both of 'em.

Over the last ten years? A quick trawl of my forgettory comes up with a whole slew of live performances of "professional new music" that have tingled my toes and shivered my timbers and fired my creative juices as well as the giveaway throbbing metaphorical aesthetic erection...... Hermeto Pascoal, Caetano Veloso, Dave Holland, Take 6, Bill Frisell, John Scofield, Pat Coleman, Jim Hall, Keith Jarrett, Bill Charlap, Chick Corea, Doug Riley with Pat LaBarbara, Renee Rosnes, Bob Murphy, Brent Jarvis, Brad Meldhau, Vocal Sampling, Los Van Van, Steve Reich, Herbie Hancock, Wayne Shorter, Sonny Rollins, Marta Sebastien, Joe Henderson, Ross Taggart, Phil Dwyer, Monik Nordine, Tim Whitehead, Michael Brecker, Mark Ramsden, Jan Garbarek, Pat Metheny, Trilok Gurtu, Roy Haynes, Andy Narell, Tony Genge, Bulgarian State Women's Choir, Bobby McFerrin, Kurt Elling, Anne Schaefer, Michel Camilo.... and I know there's more, just as I know I'm a lucky guy to have been there at those moments. If your thinking recorded music, then a lot of my significant choices are going to repeat the same names - so let me just add a few more whose CDs have particularly knocked me out... Zeca Pagodinho "Jura"; Maria Bethania and Vinicius Moraes "Que Falta Voce Me Faz"; Grupo Fundo de Quintal "A Batucada Dos Nossos Tantas"; Gavin Bryars "Jesus Blod Never Failed Me Yet"; Little Axe "The Wolf That House Built"; Walter Becker "Eleven Tracks of Whack", Joe Zawinul "My People", Rachelle Ferrell "First Instrument"; Ralph Towner "Anthem"..... sorry, I just knocked over that pile of CDs ... and I could go on but it would get boring, I'm sure.... and you get the idea. Is that any use?

I just tried again and have discovered that it exceeds my file limit by a mere 2kb. WTF!! I seek a solution.

Tough gig - bad news. Organised a quick scratch live recording once myself for jazz ensemble with sinfonietta. Maybe 56 players and a conductor. I was lucky enough to find an engineer who regularly recorded one of the leading London symphonies. His approach seemed to be to concentrate on recording the room sound. We used a very decent concert hall at Goldsmiths College and basic balanced sound re-inforcement. He found himself a sweet spot up near the balcony, stayed out of the way, hung a stereo pair, and we went 2-track direct to dat. Worked out ok, too. Simple and effective.

Anyone can combat an argument by reference to facts and objectivity! But seriously - this is a harsh reminder of the realities on the other side of the glass when you've got a facility that needs to pay it's way and be available 24 hrs (hopefully). Just the struggle to keep pace with developments has to take a heavy toll. And then adding insult to injury you're forced to work in the Bozone. I don't envy the gig at all. Ha! I take it you mean "meticulous". That's just what we expect from an engineer. Good man yourself. 8 MegaBytes of epic Spinal Tap proportions. I sent it, but it may have been blocked by my server due to being an MP3. Let me know whether you got it or not.

Hey Mr P, I couldn't have noticed any absence of diplomacy - but I do notice your tendency towards honesty. That's a good thing. I appreciate it. Funny thing - thinking about our discussion I did happen to recall one particular drummer from my past associations - a very unique and influential guy whose impact on the group in question was very profound and powerful - about whom I noticed some very curious quirks of personality (an 'artiste") that meant that if I went out of my way to really piss him off just before a performance then he would seem to attack the show with greater energy and conviction and effectiveness. Wierd. Even stranger for me to adopt such a strategy consciously because it seems alien to my nature. But it always worked. He was always cool in the studio though. And a great player. (But I have to say I would never choose to involve him in any of my own personal projects however good he 'cause we don't share any of that essential sympatico.) Also in the past I have got to witness some very fractious sessions featuring the most outrageously petulant behaviour from folks who we might all expect to have known better, so I sympathise deeply with your professional circumstances - seems to require the unlikely skill-set of an insensitive brute and a compassionate psychotherapist. (And I still like to keep a copy of the infamous Troggs tape around as a salutory examplar. Anyone wants to hear it, by the way, I can send 'em an MP3) In my imagination I figured this might have something to do with you calling yourself Prometheus - who must have certainly got pissed-off on a regular basis having his liver pecked out every day. And Hari - yet again we are in accord: Steve Cropper was heavy. When any of those Booker T session dudes laid it down - it surely stayed there. The other stuff you said makes a lot of sense.

Loads and loads.

You know - I think you’re right – maybe it is harsh. I hesitated about posting. The subject I chose to run off at the mouth about was potentially out of line with the thread topic. Plus it contains a critical stance which may be unwelcome. So I even considered deleting after I had posted. But in the end I went for it anyway in the interests of open debate plus the fact that it remains my honest opinion. Sounds like you and I have completely different working practices. These are elements of the post-production palette for me. Sounds like maybe you use a studio to "make" music product whereas I use a studio to record music that's being made. I could be wrong. Please let me know. But it could explain the associated differences in tools and values and approach. I am not quite clear what you mean to say with the Dylan reference, but disgree with the statement it qualifies. Maybe it depends on what we mean by “successful”. My measure of success has to satisfy a personal aesthetic and not current fashions – although I get a kick out of plenty enough of those, they’re certainly not part of what I’m after. Extremely few of the recordings I choose to own because of their inherent beauty and power have anything to do with a click track. Neither do they have anything to do with Robert Zimmerman. Yet still, by my chosen standards, they are hugely successful. I can spout a list if you need. Nor have any of the recordings I have been involved with – apart from the one occasion I mentioned previously – had anything to do with a click. And it’s up to you whether you choose to consider them “successful” or not. But I definitely do. (I can spout a list of these, too, if you need, although it’s obviously much less than the previous proffered list, and contains nothing that risks being on “Top Of The Pops” or providing the backdrop for a rave.) Neither are they imperfect. I didn’t say it isn’t possible to groove with a click. I did say it provided unique challenges in playing and recording. Those few recordings I have that were done with a click are most definitely groovy and most admirably realised. That’s why I bought ‘em. Haven’t heard Groove Armada. I’ll check it out. But it does say “remix” – which indicates once more that we’re talking about different working practices appropriate for different goals. Now, I’m a huge fan of guys like, say, Adrian Sherwood, and the sort of things they can get up to in a studio, but I definitely don’t operate in the same arena. The job of the engineer is not to dispute but to serve our intent and goal. Their skills and opinions and experience are the very reasons they’re hired. However – if they are unable to share their opinion and offer the benefit of their advice and experience without creating a fraught environment with fraying tempers, then they’re not going to last long. I think I prefer the way I work, thanks. I don’t find frayed nerves and tempers are at all conducive to getting the job done. Unless, I guess, it’s that style of energy you want to capture. But it’s not for me. On planet Lazz, those sort of guys don’t get hired either. What I want in the studio are players who can do the job, people who can gel professionally in a co-operative team fashion. It’s just not credible to suggest that these guys would have to be yes-men with no self-belief or passion for what they are doing. It’s like any other work environment. Proper professional attitude and approach is a real positive productive asset – the lack of social skills is not. So. While I agree it may have been harsh for me to have come right out and said it, I will still stand by what I said – if you’re recording in a fraught environment trying to work with geezers who get pissed-off quick, then you’re in the wrong place with the wrong guys. This is just not a good working situation by anyone’s standards. And I’d think seriously about changing it.

I don't think you sounded churlish, Alistair. I think I may have done though.

Nobody asked my opinion but I feel obliged to offer an alternative point of view since these sort of click-track notions are pretty much alien to my own experience. I suppose their use is legitimate and acceptable as a problem-solution for practical or logistical purposes in terms of certain styles of recording that build a song out of individual overlays and sequences, but if a studio engineer tried to push me into using one I couldn't help but conclude he was not the guy I needed. Maybe I'm out on another limb here, but I've never knowingly come across an engineer of this particular persuasion. There's only one time I ever personally tried to make use of click. It was to enable a graceful segue on disc between tracks that had been scheduled for recording on different days, one of which was to be released as s single. The rented producer was an old-school guy, however, who refused to countenance it, and to this day I regret not beating him down and having the benefit of the tool to achieve that goal. And it would have worked very well as a solution for that particular problem - but only really as a secure count-in for segueing the stitched-on track. I hesitate to say this but, unless there is a clear practical purpose of this nature, the only time an engineer would have to insist on a click-track to make the product feel more professional is when he or she is dealing with amateurs. (Ouch! - I said it.) One other large issue with using a click is that different players will hear/feel it most effectively in different ways. Try it and see. Do you groove along with it better happening on the 2 & 4, or on the 3, or on any of the other permutations? Practice and find out. In the few sessions I have witnessed where logistics have required a click and where more than one guy had to come in at the same time to record complex parts with a heavy reading focus, then they had to be fed headphone mixes containing their own click preferences because of this factor. Basically, what a click or metronome is for is practice. In an actual playing or recording situation, unless there it has clear practical purpose, it's always preferable you should be listening to the other players and not to a machine. Speaking briefly of metronomic practice, whenever I visit my partner on the nearby campus where he does some teaching, it's always easy to spot his students. They are the ones who are clicking their way rhythmically, walking around with metronomes in their pockets. Getting the beat into their movement and subliminally into the soul. It seems to work, too. Anyway... the groove and having a good time is what it's about - so if you do ever find yourself recording in a fraught environment where tempers are becoming frayed then maybe you should just reconsider whether you're in the right place with the right guys.

Not so loud...

The usual business model is for people to pay a fee to cover the costs of compiling and manufacturing etcetera. You would also be expected to sign over the rights to enable them to do what they do. So it would be perfectly legitimate. Absolutely no need for it to be anything else. (And there are numerous provocative parallels with the way more acceptedly "legitimate" record companies actually operate, so you have to take your own chances everywhere.) In exchange, you get the opportunity, the chance, if things work out as we would all like them to, to have your track put in front of a market you might never have otherwise have reached. That's if it works out. The people running it think there's room to turn a profit out of the process. It's the music business, after all. There are loads of bottom-feeders ready to exploit the army of wannabes. You just have to make your own assessment of risk and return. Like song contests. Same model. It's what they plan to do with it after that counts. Otherwise, under regular circumstances, the going rate for licensed tracks on a compilation is around 7 cents per track per CD. A thousand CD's yields $70 in mechanicals. Less than 5% of all CDs sell a thousand.

Back-up and save your files first. XP will wipe your hard-drive.

Ahem. Excuse me. I disagree. You have to design an effective problem-solution and keep the client happy so I think it's an art and craft in it's own right. OK so it's not high-art (what would be?) but it can be done well or poorly. Your choice. And simple is always good. Tom - the one thing that strokes the client is hearing the product name or business identity sung lots. Lots. Gets 'em every time.