VoiceEx

I think there is nothing wrong with seeking professional consultation and services from people who are experts in their fields, many of which may have access to more knowledge and tools than, lets say, a hobbyist or people that don't work on music full time. That being said, I do do agree with you that "music production courses" are not the be-all, end-all. In fact, in some cases these courses actively "push" overlapping services and products on to their students (i.e selling both the problem and the "solution"), as a way to squeeze more money from them, while at the same time, attempting to create a dependency on their services.

@Jac Speaking of scammers, let me show you something. There is a very interesting article about how a young artist named Ren was recently targeted by a hacking group called Anonymous, and what sort of cyber-bullying campaign they launched against him. You can check it out here. I believe that @john @Mahesh @Glammerocity @McnaughtonPark have also heard his music, just to name a few. Now, here is a question: Did you just click on a a recommendation by somebody you think you know? Or have you just been baited to enter a malicious website? Have you examined the UTRL off hand? Would you have thought about that direction, had I not provided any context? Think about it! 😅 That's just one mock example as to why I always encourage people to conduct online research in a safe, productive, and informative way.

Absolutely. I always document everything and I conduct testing very carefully, through constant back and forth communication with the advisor. Otherwise, it wouldn't be efficient and scientific. After all, the whole point of testing something is to produce different kind's of comparable results, and then systematically work shopping things, together. Its a partnership, not a contest.

I've received all sorts of advice over the years. Both from seasoned producers, accomplished musicians, songwriters etc, but also from hobbyists and from people who work in all sorts of industries. As such, Its impossible for me to point out 'just' a few words of advice, being as even an oversimplification of the sheer volume of that, could probably make for string of threads. You could say that I learned from a lot people, and not only from musicians. That being said, in terms of evaluating who (or what) to listen too, I can give you a good general direction to my approach and explain one of the metrics I start with. Don't worry, I won't go too deep, and only briefly touch on initial interpersonal aspects of it. As a rule of thumb, I usually go about my business by challenging what I'm told and testing what I'm being told. And before I will even begin consider listening to someone, I will carefully examine what their saying, cross reference what their saying, run that by people who I -do trust, and compare everything they said to whatever I can find about their body of work. And If I decide to follow someone's advice, they are going to have to impress me first (on a multitude of facets, many of which I haven't even mentioned), and prove to me through more then just their knowledge, that there is value in seeking out their council and following their advice. I know that may sound a bit harsh or judgemental, but its important to factor in all the practicalities involved. After all, if I do decide to follow someone's advice, in most cases, that is an action that could potentially cost me: time, money, energy, resources, or whatever else. Which means I have to be very careful, all the time. Not to mention, everybody wants something, and there is no shortage of scammers out there. In addition, there is also the subject of an individual area's expertise. I mean, yeah, any good producer can give you useful advice, regardless of anything. However, in terms of, lets say, musical arrangements, sound engineering, instruments (etc), there are certain production directions which are more relevant to their respective niche. You're more likely to get useful advice from people who excel in their fields, then you would from people who simply dabble with what you're doing. What I'm trying to say is, when it comes to advice, its important to keep an open mind, but its also equally important to be mindful. And, speaking from my own experience here in Songstuff, I think it also helps to get to know people around you, in some cases, possibly even on a personal level, being as the more you know about them, they better you can decide if they are worth working with, befriending, or listening too. There is also the subject of referrals. Which, as far as I can tell, is something that very few people do, for some odd reason! Like, if somebody wants my advice, but I don't feel qualified enough to give them a proper response, then I will simply refer them to @john @Mahesh @Peggy or possibly to other community members, based on their interests. If there would be one thing I hope people take from this, its that: We-Are-Not-Alone-In-Here! 👍

Imagine, how mortified they'd have been had they seen the Grammy's. Or worse. TikTok 😅 Absolutely! The fun part is, that nowadays technology has become extremely accessibly, to the point where practically anyone with enough patience, skills and creativity, can realize their own concepts and lore, and all on a very reasonable budget. In fact, with the proper research, even elaborate visions and music videos can be brought to life, just by using open source creation suites and free assets (interactive applications included). That's not even the tip of the iceberg, though I don't want to hijack the thread lol. Its.. kind of mind boggling how so few musicians really look into these things.

Indeed. I also remember a time when song where made to last the test of time. A lot has changed, and seems to continue to change towards that direction. Not to mention, in terms of using tropes, imagine what it will be like a few years from now, when A.I content becomes more established in the music scene. Then we will begin to see even more changes, some of which might possibly become permanent changes. Hybrid content is coming, and I think that artists should be ready for it. Though I think that there is a light at the end of this tunnel. Progress is not the "enemy of art", it is the enemy of those who are not prepared for it, and those who refuse to adapt alongside it. Speaking as a story writer and illustration artist at my core, I tend to believe that a good way to begin tackling these coming changes, as well as tackling the issue of over-using tropes, is to strategically re-evaluate some of the core principles of songwriting, alongside extending the storytelling aspects of music into more visual mediums, as well as tapping into the growing demand for hands-on interactive content. As technology continues to become more and more accessible, I think that this kind of approach will become easier. To put that in perspective, the concept of storytelling through music allows for both the music and visual elements to present a fully fleshed out story. Which in turn provides a natural blueprint that opens the door to a wealth of possibilities, while at the same time, offering much more creative control. It can also aid in reaching a broader audience, while also extending the album's longevity as a product. Just to give one small example to what I'm talking about. Since my music follows an actual story, one which I have also turned into a series of comic books, this means that, as a musician, every song I make follows an established narrative. A narrative which paces in a controlled environment, and in accordance to what fits the story. i.e the audience takes a part in the experience, but the control is always yours (tropes included). In other words: A good song can be good on its own. However, it becomes even more dynamic, and more can be done with it, when you start thinking of songs as 'extensions' to a bigger picture. This is one of the many benefits that comes from storytelling. Even single songs can become crossing points or plot devices on their own, while at the same time, having different corresponding songs that connect to them, functionally utilizing a wide array of storytelling techniques. They can even reach the point of effectively serving as a story reference points that will still be relevant several albums down the line. The sky is the limit, its all a matter of approach. Now, whether or not the audience responds favorably depends on many factors. However, by following a story, you are able to consistently expand on it and experiment with it, and have complete control over what you wish to include (music wise included). Not to mention, doing this also allows you to consistently pump out story based content and variety content, potentially for years. Both the story and your music have the potential to expand organically. You'd also never really run out of idea's for music videos. Unconventional storytelling is one of the reasons why I take notes from Asian culture, being as they actively push some of these envelopes.

1. Would you be willing to recommend Songstuff to your fellow songwriters and musicians? What is the reason behind your answer? Absolutely! I consider this forum to be THE best of its kind and I'd like for us to have more members! The quality of our community members is second to none, the site's content is excellent, there is a wealth of knowledge and features (which unfortunately most of our members don't use lol ), and our staff is absolutely phenomenal! 2. What would you like to see more of on the Songstuff Community? Well, I'd like for us to reach younger members. This place could greatly benefit from some fresh blood. I'd also like for us to have more variety content and I want to see more engaging community activities. I'd also like to see Songstuff incorporate more practical ways to incentivize members to actually participate, and become more involved. It would also be great if more people used their Blogs to make content that's actually interesting! I'd also like to see more hands-on activities and content that includes community members. For example, a while back @john and @Mahesh did a wicked interview! Tell me, why is that not a regular thing? And why only you two? 😅 3. What would you like to see less of on the Songstuff Community? I'd like to see less confrontational interactions in the critique sections. 4. Would you be interested in starting or growing the fan base for your music? Absolutely! 5. Would you be interested in starting/growing the number of artists recording your songs? Hell yeah!

Just to clarify, that statement wasn't meant to be taken at its most literal sense. The concept of 'tropes' is a very broad definition and the practice of pushing a narrative through universal appeal has been 'drilled' into people for centuries, if not more so. There is a science behind it, and I'd even go as far as saying, that its practically impossible to avoid using some kind of trope, since not using any puts you at risk of completely alienating your audience. That being said, what I meant was, if someone wants to avoid using particular music industry tropes, than it all comes down to experimentation and finding out what works for you. And while its true that stepping away from all things 'traditional' might result in your work being limited to a niche audience, that's not necessarily a bad thing. In fact, I often argue that sometimes having a smaller, more consistent and mature audience, is more creatively satisfying than having a younger, and more fickle and influential audience. A "Number's v.s substance" sort of thing.

For what its worth, I think that you should. I know you have your reasons, but speaking strictly as a member of the audience, I'd LOVE to hear more powerful and meaningful music. From you, from Ren, from anyone. Call me crazy, but I absolutely despise this whole "monitory complacency train" that so many musicians seem to be boarding, and all for the sake of profiting off a generation that lives on their phones. I think it really IS as ridicules as it sounds! Think about it: The bar has been set so low, that you even see people lip-syncing covers in their bathroom with cat-ears filter on! I think its no surprise that the audience is starting to crave more sanity 😅 I think that would be great! Though I would recommend doing so with caution. I haven't really looked into him, but I'd assume that he's already somewhat self sustained, and there's a chance he may not be looking to work with people outside his circle.

This is a great topic! Well, without going too deep, my approach to songwriting is through storytelling. And I mean that in the most literal sense since all my songs are based around an original fictional story I wrote. So, on the topic of 'tropes', I think that a good way to begin stepping outside that box, is by exploring all manners of Audio/Visual presentations, as well as experimenting with dialog/scripts/lyrics, and systematically work-shopping a foundation to support whichever 'stage' or 'theme' fits your own narrative effectively. TLDR, Engineer your own world, make your own tropes.

Well, I'd like to think that a person can be more that just those three things (consumer, creative, moralist) 😅 Though please allow me to thank you for raising such an interesting debate! I'm always on the look out for interesting conversations, as that is how I pass the majority of my time here. Speaking as a consumer, a creator, and a moralist myself, I'd like to think that all three of these important elements are not necessarily at odds with each other. For one, you can pick what prefer to consume, support or endorse. And on a similar vain, you can also choose how you go about prioritizing what sort of PR/Marketing tactics/practices you wish to incorporate into your brand. In other words: Everything starts with a choice, and I believe that you can define what you wish yourself and your brand to stand for. And if something comes up that seems to be in direct opposition to your core values as a person, than, by all means, either don't do it, or strategize a way around it or experiment with different tactics. There is always more than one option, and there are plenty of middle grounds and go-to compromises. I think that its going to be a long time before real music, music with substance, will truly become popular again. And I can say the same for the videogame industry. Though I don't think it will happen at this point in time. Both society and the world is in a state of transition. Maybe a few years from now, though. Your right, nothing can stop progress. Which is why the question becomes: Since you cannot change the world itself, than what will you choose to do about your own product? personally, I believe that adaptation is key. Sure, we could keep it real 👍 Well, putting all business and marketing aside, speaking as a soon-to-be retired composer, I can tell you that I have always disliked the business side of things. If fact, I'd even go as far as saying, that I think its soul sucking and boring lol. Than again, that's just my opinion as a person. And there is a BIG difference between that, and between neglecting the inherit responsibilities and practical financial decisions that come with the trade. We all got bills to pay, no? lol. Is that more in-line with what you wanted to hear? Hey anytime man! Besides. I don't like ignoring people and I think that the topics your bringing up are important. Don't worry about it. Usually I'm the one that rants into the void 😅

Finally some good new music!!!!

This is very true, and its one of the reasons why I had originally set my sights on the videogame industry (as oppose to, lets say, leaning strictly towards cinema) and stayed on that lane for many years. In terms of creative leniency (content wise) and business opportunities, there's enough work until the end of time. I know that talking about money and discussing umbrella terms such as 'content creation' can make certain people feel uncomfortable. There is no shortage of purists that want to operate as a "detached jukebox", and can't stand the idea of maintaining a closer relationship with their listeners. So I won't get too much into that. However, I will say, that, if we talking in terms of sustainability, if music and streaming revenue is NOT the only thing on the table, than in many ways 'it' (content creation) actually becomes a sort of "all you can eat buffet". That is, provided a person approaches it with an open mind. Hell. Sometimes when I go on streams I'll make jokes about how even silly stuff like "thirst bait", and other forms of ridicules content, can potentially out-sell a string of singles. "The art of dying inside", if you will 😅 I'm just joking of course, but the truth is not so far from it. Selling an experience is simply more profitable than "just" selling music. Its also more fun for the creator, though maybe that's just me.

Hi @Hunned Kay! I like your attitude and I think that these are indeed great insights! Though I would like to point out that you have wrote this thread in the introduction forum. These fantastic insights and this thread might be more fitting (categorically) in places where you are more likely to reach the people who might be actively looking to make connections or discuss these matters. Places such as the Collaboration section, the Music Industry section, or possibly in the Musicians Lounge if your looking for a more open ended discussion.

That moment when a spammer labels your content as disturbing 🤣👋

This is a great topic @GregB! 😮 In terms of integrating technologies, I think that we are experiencing the infancy stages of a larger "transition phase" that will extend far beyond the entertainment industry. If I had to put it in just a few words, I think its kind of like a "horse meets car" scenario. That being said. Do I think that this will be the death of human made art? Hardly. Like @john said, I too believe that hybrid content is likely to become the norm. In fact, if you look at the rise in popularity of virtual celebrities, virtual bands, virtual pop stars (etc), those are clear indications that society is already welcoming hybrid generated content. The biggest initial hurdle is probably going to be, that it will take some time before the tools to produce true hybrid content will become more user friendly, to the point where any person (none musicians included) can just pick it up for free, and do something with it. Those will be trying times, that whole "adapt or die" phase. Especially for purists. Like, Imagine a scenario where a die hard jazz purist realizes that his biggest competition on the market happens to be some random teenager or a bored bank accountant. This could happen with hybrid content. On a positive note though, I think it won't be like it was with Torrents. I mean, yes, there will be a paradigm shift. But I think it will be quicker than it was in the past. Artificial intelligence has been knocking on our door for a long time. Who knows. One day A.I might also be integrated with our minds, which will open the door for even more innovations, which will spawn new kinds of hybrid content. What I'm trying to say is, there is no stopping progress. You can only prepare for it and evolve along side it. In fact, I'm hoping that perhaps we will all live around long enough to see true sentient A.I content. Though hopefully that won't become a "pet human" sort of situation! You know, like one A.I telling another: "Say.. does your pet human produce music that you enjoy? I keep waterboarding mine in order to produce beats with air bubbles. That's how they learn. He's no Mozart, but I think he's getting there! Anyway, its time for his protein treat! Here boy! Now, who's a good Spacebar! Yes you are!". Common one joke! 😅

I'll bring the prune juice! 😅

I don't believe we've ever met, though welcome back David! Its a pleasure to have you onboard!

You're absolutely right. Some of the highest grossing titles in the gaming industry are completely free to play. Had he based his argument around predatory monetary practices, and demonstrated distinct parallels between both industries, focusing on the psychological methodology which said practices revolve around, than that would make for a much more compelling presentation. There's no shortage of publicly available data and science to drive those points home. I mean, as far as doom-saying goes, might as well back it up by using some real horrors, no? 😅 Though to be fair, I too have felt like it was a very interesting thesis. Its worth watching and I'm glad you shared it! In fact, if you like these sorts of things, than feel free to check this out. Its a bit long and darker, but right up the ally of doom-saying 🧐

Thank you for sharing this @GregB! Wow, There's a lot unpack, and there are so many points I don't agree with 😅 Though since I don't have all day, I only intend to tackle one particular bit which is just straight up ridicules. "Are video games free? You know how big the video game business is now? It's $80 billion. The largest music company in the world, Universal Music, is $6 billion. So these video game companies are not giving it away for free" "Best Free PC Games In 2022: 20 Great Free-To-Play Games". (From "Gamespot") Microtransactions are a 'thing'. You're welcome, Ted 👍

OKAY. Time to answer some questions! Sorry for the late response @john! 😅 The marketing and promotional nature of my content inherently limits what I am willing to discuss publicly. However, I can provide a brief summery for general context. As a songwriter, what are your options? I'm primarily a freelance composer and independent sound engineer, which specializes in developing 'theme based' oriented Scores, and producing audio-visual media related material intended for commercial use and distribution. I'm close to my retirement, which opens the door for me to produce music and art which I actually enjoy producing, without being limited by my current obligations, or by the time limitations imposed on me due to my schedule. Over the years I have worked on projects which required me to tackle a wide array of genres, and for multiple different purposes. So to that end, I would say that its not so much a question of which 'options' I could pick from, but rather, which goals I decide to set for myself, and on what sort of music or creative projects I would prefer to focus on. What can YOU do with YOUR songs? As a former content creator and working composer, I'm aware of the acute benefits and efficacy of teamwork and establishing beneficial partnerships. So to that end, its not a question of what 'I' can 'do' by myself, but rather, a matter of allocating resources, and developing a strategy step by step and workshoping said progress by consulting with experts and producers whom I trust. Some of which are also a part of Songstuff. In other words: While there is a lot I could do on my own, and have already accomplished independently, I could accomplish much more through working with others. Do you plan to release songs as an artist? That's a great question! Well, that depends. Since I'm still weighing in options, I'm constantly contemplating whether or not to feature myself as an artist, performer, or as a primary creative director/producer. What about end goals? My end goal has always been to bring both my music and stories to life (independently), through whichever means and skill-sets that would require, and reaching a level of production which is satisfactory for me. This was a goal I have already achieved on my own, way before I ever considered to use my skills to generate a profit. So to that end, in a way, you could say that my current goal's are to evolve my original concept and explore that narrative in audience form. Do you want other artists to perform your songs? I don't like ruling out options. So for the time being, I'd say that's worth exploring later down the line. Do you intend going after production companies as your main priority? No. I would only consider approaching a production company if I'm either: already at a point where I don't "need" them, or if working with them will vastly outweigh what I originally intended. Although I started this topic here for general discussion, if anyone wants to explore their options, plans and tactics, we can perhaps start individual topics and workshop your plans? If there was one field I think would be universally interesting to discuss and explore in public format, I would say its probably discussing the production of variety content and visual assets. Though maybe that's just me, as I have noticed that alot of people here aren't really 'into' that sorta thing.

Don't worry about it! Your doing fine! I thought your reply was fantastic and in line with the context! Your positive attitude is exactly why I looked into some of your comments on the forum, prior to pinging you here. Welcome abroad Alberto! 👍

Yeah every advertising strategy has a paid version. Of course. Though I wanted to bring up an idea which can be done for free. Which would make life easier both for Songstuff, but also for the willing participants. That is also one of the reasons my suggestion was based around a limited time format, a preview of Songstuff's workshop capabilities. Instead of, lets say, starting and maintaining an ongoing Youtube/Twitch/Podcast series (etc). I wanted to come up with a demonstration that literally any chosen community member could take part in, without having to worry about reaching into their pockets. Its just an idea of course, but think about it. A free experiment might not be as efficient as a paid one, but pulling that off successfully is also a demonstration in of itself. Its a "flex", and a powerful one at that. One which could potentially turn into a string of multiple partnerships, and even serve as a fundraiser. Which would lead to even more options. I have submitted a vote and I was planning on responding there tomorrow 👍 though yeah my own personal goals have not been stated in this thread. I can get on that too. Though granted I'm sure that you already know that there are certain details I would not discuss in a public format.

I couldn't agree more 👍 Which is why venturing outside the realms of the forum, in a modern way and with the right people, was the core of my suggestion! When I said that my idea wouldn't cost a penny (for Songstuff and its members), I was referring to the minimal technical aspects required to pull off the sort of real-time documentation I was talking about. It could be done by using free tools and free Streaming services. That's what I meant.

No worries! I also sent you a PM to clear things up 😅