Carnival

Lazz, this shows a lot of promise. You are onto someting. I know this isn't a review section, but I wanted to tell you what I suspect you know - the weak points. Specifically: Some of it friendless In storm-driven weather Balance recovered Repentance and leisure These occur in the exact same spot in Sections 1 and 2. They sound like lines that were formed exclusively to make rhymes. It IS a bastard of a challenge. They don't fit the rest of the song very well. I like the rest of it just FINE

Helps a lot, John. Just one more question... What's the difference between message and theme? Just kidding there. But, being inexperienced at working through these things, it's still complex and obscure. I am going to have to reread this over for several more hours (only been reading it for seven so far), or more likely several more years, then see if I can sort out some of my own lyrics accordingly, and see if it gets clearer. I have a suggestion, and it's asking a bit of you. It might be helpful if you posted another lyric or two here and went through the process again, so we can see these process consistently applied and get a better feel for it. Then maybe anyone else who is interested in this (I hope I am not the only one) can post one themselves and see how it goes. This sounds to me like something that you never completely master, and that is always good to practice. We can do this in the lyric review section, but until we are sort of competent at it, well, like you said, we don't want to take over a topic with it.

For those of you who haven't seen it . . . At the risk of being single minded, this is a great rock music video: The Fatboy Slim remix of The Rolling Stones Sympathy For The Devil.

I feel a country-western song comming on...

I could name a hundred, then replace them with a hundred more. Same with favorite lyrics, favorite baseball players and favorite colors and flavors. Lots of good out there mixed in with the rest. If these haven't been mentioned... Niel Young John Prine Lennon/McCartney And enough country writers to start a football team.

You use "incoherent" like it's a bad thing...

Writing lyrics only, I find that a few get written in a week or less. But often I get the inspiration for a new song comes while I am working on another one, but it doesn't fit. So it gets written down and reviewed later. I might add a verse or two, then let it sit for months. When I started writing, I wrote complete pieces in bursts of inspiration. The problem is I could never recover that original inspiration later, to work on the song more. So whatever I was not able to complete would languish indefinitely. I got frustrated with this, because I remember every lyric I ever wrote (literally), and when I wrote some of them down I thought they were quite good and were worth finishing. My greatest advancement in the past year, as far as lyric writing goes, has been in learning to recover that inspiration, or to find new inspiration, to finish whatever I start. It takes intense concentration, and it's truly a lot of work. Sometimes I stare at, and recite what meager lines I have previusly written, for hours on end, trying to understand what they are all about and how to pick them up and add to them. It makes me realize that I never had the idea fully formed to begin with, which is why I never finished. This is frustrating, but it is also liberating, as it frees me from remaining 'true' to the original inspiration which was never complete.

Some good points expressed already about the relative importance of lyrics to different genres. Dance music, for example, doesn't require profundity. People who listen mostly to dance music, typically, are not particularly interested in the lyrics. Country songs are the other extreme. They are basically stories, and evocative lyrical vingettes set to music. But there are also diffent sorts of listeners. My wife enjoys a good lyric, but doesn't consider them particularly important to the song. Other people, and this includes most lyric writers, don't care for too many songs that don't have a good lyrics. Moral: Don't ask a dancer to review your lyrics

Filler lines...filler lines... yeah, they do exist. But hit songs aren't the best place to look for them. That's one reason they are hits. Of the filler lines that have been sited above, I wouldn't consider any of them particularly bad. In fact, I would wager that there are many 'fans' out there that love each of these lines. And remember, it doesn't matter how many people criticize a song, just how many people like (play, sing, buy) it. We all use filler lines, sometimes when we aren't very inspired, and sometimes to bridge good lines. Every line isn't genius, either in poetry or literature. A few great lines carry a lyric. There aren't a lot of songs where every line is brilliant, or even remotely vital. Context is key. A throw-away line, in the right place and time, can add nicely to the meaning, and sometimes it even takes on a deeper meaning than it would normally. I love to be able to take a simple generic line and place it where it fits so well that it becomes fresh again, because the pureness of the ideas or feelings override the specific words. I occassionaly do this with cliches as well, though it's easy to overdo either of these, in which case they become a crutch.

As the provacateur of this topic, I have to tell you that I am learning more from every one of you, as well as from other topics in this forum of a related nature - far more than I expected. It has opened my eyes, first and foremost, to the obvious but heretofore unconsidered (by me) concept of the lyricists responsibility in understanding some fundamentals of song structure, and it's importance in collaborating with the musical composer. It has also helped me to realize that there is a grey area between proper lyrical structure and the 'ear-pleasing-but-rule-breaking', or less structured lyric, and that the better the structure, the easier it is for the musician to work with. And that in the absence of this strong structure, notes about the intentions of the lyricist are valuable. I am working on a new lyric now, with this new information in mind, and I can already see some improvement in my writing with regard to it's suitability as a song lyric. It's VERY exciting to me. I plan to post several of my better existing works over the next few weeks, and I will be interested in seeing if I get more criticism about the structure of these pieces as opposed to the new ones. I think I already know the answer - "It reads like a poem."

I am ignorant of any classical learning about music history and terminology, so this thread is a revelation to me, even though this is the first new post in almost three months here. If the discussion has moved to another thread, somebody clue me in. I have been concerned that the termnology we use does not allow us to communicate our thoughts very well regarding musical and lyrical structure. I would like to learn more, and I would use what I learn. I'm nerdy that way, and old enough to know that nerdy has it's cooler aspects

That's a GREAT response, John. Thank you. Directing reviewers toward a certain quality of work is like herding cats. I guess as reviewees, we should be thankful that someone cares enough to read our work and put some thought into it, and I mean that sincerely. If we don't find the comments helpful we can ask the reviewer about our specific concerns.

John, you bring up an excellent point regarding which genre the lyric is intended for. Perhaps that would be a better way for reviewers to approach the issue of a piece 'sounding more like a poem.' It isn't necesarily constructive to hear that comment, unless you know what is meant. If the lyricist states that the lyric is intended as, for example, a country song, but it reads very poetically, has a weak rhyme scheme, and is difficult to imagine being set to country music, that is a very specific criticism that could and should be voiced. The criticism should be about the suitability of the lyric for country music, not it's poetic nature. But in most cases, the intended genre is not stated, and it would seem a 'given' that the music, whatever the genre may be, would have to fit the lyric, and no comment is needed. It is also very possible that the reviewer just isn't able to discern the intended vocal rhythm and timing. I am not very good at it myself, when I read the lyric posts of others. Perhaps a question back to the lyricist, about the intended genr is the most suitable comment, and will open up a good discussion that will benefit all. I guess that what I am saying is that, until the song is set to music, and in the absence of a stated intention to fit it into a specific genre, you can't say whether it fits. So if there is something specific that can help the lyricist, say it. Otherwise, there isn't any point to it. Regarding ryhme, it seems to me that the rule here is, "if it works, use it." Sometimes breaking rules works great. The comment should be based on the reviewers ear, not the rules of rhyme. It is difficult to get people to review lyrics and provide feedback. But I have found forums like this to be the best place to get constructive feedback, and they are extremely valuable. I am new here, but i am impressed with both the content of the posts, and of the caring reviews. You guys are doing a great job driving this train. My own view is that the reviewers focus should be on the lyricists success in writing compellingly with regard to strength of emotion, imagery, storyline (if applicable), creative or effective use of language, and whether it resonates personally with the reviewer. If all those elements are present, the techincal nit-pickinig can be worked out in the musical arrangement, when and if the time comes - sort of like a movie script. A stand-alone lyric is a component of a song. It is not inviolate. It may often have to be tweaked to make the song the best it can be. Am I on the right track in my thinking, or am I seriously off base???

In the lyric forum, I see a lot of comments regarding: a. grammatical errors b. lyrics not fitting perfectly to the rhythm and meter of the verse c. lyrics that 'read more like a poem' than a song I would like to begin a discussion of these issues, particularly with regard to the following: 1. Is grammer important in lyrics? When is it okay to stray from proper grammer to further the artistic motives of the song? In what form is it acceptable? 2. Should lyrics fit to a perfect rhyme and meter? Or does the imperfection provide the singer with opportunities to express his/her own style and to vary the timing of the lyrics for added interest? 2. What makes a lyric 'read more like a poem". Does this make piece less suitable for music? Is it a matter of structure - of not having the traditional elements of popular music, including a recurring chorus and possibly a bridge or two? Or is the difference more organic, such as the way words are used, or the type of imagery evoked? I am hoping this will facilitate better communication between the lyricist and the reviewer, by giving the reviewer food for thought before making this type of comment, and by giving the lyricist a context in which to accept the comments constructively.

This is a great topic. My main weakness, and the only glaring one I am aware of (but I'm open to finding out that I have more) is in structure. I get very stuck in the old iambic pentameter, and have difficulty changing it up to add variety and texture within a song. I'm getting better at it as I am learning to write for music, but for example when I try to go back and add a chorus or bridge to an existing piece, I have a hard time coming up with a complimenary change of pace that makes it work.