john

Maybe next time Randy. Perhaps consider helping with the MMRG street team in the interim? If it fits, great, if not, no worries.

Hi and welcome to Songstuff Rod!

A competitive field. I know a few who have tried, but very few who have had any real success... despite having hundreds or in one case close to 1500 items in music libraries... all very high quality. There are just so many people in that arena now. All the ones I know of are producer-writers or producer/writer teams. I would love to know where, if anywhere, those shortcuts lead. I suspect they are simply short lol

Very true. There are good people out there. Some people are on power trips, and some really have lost touch with reality surrounded by too many industry yes men and sycophant hangers on. I tend to find most good people have good people around them. Others get a kick out of laughing at the little people. Admittedly I think it makes a difference where in their careers they are. Some think they are talented and lucky. Some think they are talented and special. Schmoozers... yup, apart from the party events that seem to be eternally populated by schmoozers

Agents is a nice cover all it does come under pitching in terms of putting the music in front of someone, though there are agencies that deal with general representation that will use specific pitching services or in-house pitchers getting contacts can be relatively easy by comparison to getting the ability to pitch, which are quite different things. You are absolutely right about how much smaller the world is, yet still info and connection is king. To get around a lack of connection some innovation is needed. Talking to people socially can work (hence party schmoozing) but often they want an intro to talk business or they switch right off as soon as they think you are after something. A bit like saying "I have a manuscript" at a publisher's party... it's like the parting of the red sea with you stood in the middle. You may as well ring a bell and chant "unclean" lol

Contacts are useful. Knowing how to find them, or how to use them is even better! My understanding is that Taxi does not give you the contact. They sit in the middle. You pay them, they decide what to do... and forward your "submission". I don't know how accurate that is, so I can't be completely sure. I have never heard of them forwarding a song that they have not been paid to forward. I have also never heard of one success story. Not one. Zero. Nil. Nada.

Yeah, she has her own songwriting site too. I don't know much about her other than her own site exists, she writes for occasional other sites and is involved with Taxi. Of course, maybe she's ghost written a bunch, or under a nom de plume? Even so. You can learn a lot about song writing from other writers, but there's a long way between that and writing "hit" songs... not simply good ones. A long way between writing songs and being an expert. That aside, there are many skills to getting a hit ong, many facets, that have nothing to do with song writing skills... such as marketing, the artist, the budget.... a whole load of others. So even if someone has written a hit song, they can only tell me part of the picture. Ever. Unless they did the whole thing themselves, beginning to end and supplied the money. Too few of them around. Still, I can learn from a good songwriter, hit writer or not. As to A&R. At Taxi. Really? If they were a label or publisher, maybe, otherwise it just sounds pretentious and contrived.

Same model as taxi. I don't like taxi. lol

Hi Childed, welcome to Songstuff!

Ok, I will send an invite. I will get the MMRG up and running first.

Hi Amandine, welcome to Songstuff. Great to have you aboard. Yep quite a few singers. I look forward to hearing some of your tracks!

Perhaps you could then be part of the street team Sumi?

If you have a real plan to do it, then yep. If it is a vague "at some time maybe", then perhaps it's not ideal. So perhaps it is a good time to change a vague "sometime" into now. I do plan on putting together a street team to help with MMRG tasks. The street team would still be learning and trying stuff out, just not on their own projects. So really I guess it comes down to your needs. Both Mahesh and I are recording with the aim of releasing an EP then album. The marketing effort needs to start before the album is ready. There is a lot that needs to prepared, and some tasks start public engagement months beforehand. If you have huge budgets that time can be shorter. One thing I would say is that I can't promise when we will be recruiting to the group again. It partly depends on group members, and partly depends on whether, having tried it for a while, we feel we need more members. I may start other spin off projects, but I can't promise to. If you are thinking about it.... there is no time like the present. In doing this we are making a commitment to ourselves, and to each other... I know you would take it seriously anyway, but I just wanted to put that out there! Lol

Okay... just one PM and a couple of likes. Still it needs to be carried out, even if it is just Mahesh and myself, and possibly the member who sent me a PM. I would have thought that this would ideally suit anyone releasing an EP or album. Go figure! Lol

Shubhr-Producer

In these cases the sites are more about tangible opportunities with the sites acting as gatekeepers... but they aren't helpful regarding improving the standard of your work. Film music jobwire is great for opportunities for film and TV.

There is no right answer over all, only what works for you. You might not need anyone's help to grow a fan base, but it isn't necessarily easier. It's swings and roundabouts. Whatever you choose you can make it work. Indeed much of what we do on Songstuff is about making the indie unsigned case work, by a number of ways. Unless you have a contract on offer it is an academic argument... i.e. It is indie unsigned or nothing, you choose. If another choice comes along, you can then weigh it all up and maybe make a new choice. On indie, yes you get to keep a larger slice of the pie, if not all, but it is likely to be a far far smaller pie. The trick is in being happy with what you give away in order to get a slice that is larger than the 100% of the small pie. Lol

An interesting discussion, though kind of comparing apples and oranges with fair points on each side... and perspective is certainly an important factor. Kind of mixing the creativity or it's lack of, with business models and modern tech. Musicality and appeal... well it is subjective in terms of quality, but as predictability and short term returns have become the main stay of the music industry, so did having formulaic artistes that were largely one individual (easier to control, less costly). Music is experimental, but less so each iteration.. and the more experimental tend to be indie. Lyrically they are certainly less thought provoking, less challenge, more easily digestible... and music has done the same. It is not that it doesn't experiment, it does, more that each song takes less risk. In a world of minimal investment, short term prospects and maximum returns, you can easily see that it has an effect on the music produced, even the artistes involved. There are some awesome and daring artistes out there, but a smaller percentage. As to streaming, sales, popularity... people go to record labels for good reason, and it isn't to get a smaller slice of a small pie. Virility can occur, but labels and talent shows know if they spend X to reach a critical mass, and they have A, B, & C in place they can more or less guarantee virality. Assuming the music is not challenging and easy to consume they more or less have a money creation machine. Making money is no guaranteed, but it is less of a risky prospect. People get all kinds of quaint views on what goes on and why, and that really the artistes of their era were not caught in the same machine... the truth is they always were. The exact mechanisms vary according to the time and the tech. However, the modern streamlined business model era has far far more influence on music, while accompanied by far far more compliant artistes sold on a greedy dream with a carefully managed expectation... versus art for art's sake. Our entire culture has changed, the cult of celebrity where it is acceptable to be famous for absolutely nothing. Money, money, money. So there is a very real linkage, between how labels do business, the more general entertainments industry, and the price artistes are prepared to pay. There really is no myth and magic in the music industry, just managed expectation and expected outcomes. All that said, I don't think experimentation started in 77 and ended in 87. Love it or hate it, albums like Ok Computer or Portishead and many others were after that watershed, albums like Dark Side Of The Moon, or Sgt Peppers were before. What is true is the trend of less trained musicians or writers involved in direct music creation (as loops and bedroom producers became more popular). What is true is we live in a time where mediocrity is so celebrated that even "good" is elevated to the dizzy heights of greatness. Meanwhile many less compliant, talented artistes go unsupported and unnoticed. They are list in a morass of millions of those clamouring for fame with little is any discernible skill. Equally, many artistes (who once upon a time would have gone through a professional artiste development program) remain steadfast that the modern era offers nothing, and they have little to learn. The music industry is just that. An industry. Our artistic notions have been largely ploughed under by an ever more ruthless industry. Of course there is room for creativity, but if you want to go mainstream, you better believe there is a price to be paid. Of course, if your tastes and interests happily coincide with the demands of the modern industry, you will hardly notice as your pockets are rifled. Nonetheless... you can still navigate a path that suits you, or at least a series of compromises that gives you a result you can live with. Talent or luck. It takes both. It always has. The exact balance? It always changes.

Awww, I deliberately left them... your mum's mixing, touching your feminine side in public... pretty well every line was loaded, some with more than one starburst

Nature versus nurture? I don't know. The fact is that little boys tend to play different games from girls growing up. They play with different toys. LSure enough as adults there are some differences in behaviour. Are they checmical, biological or simply exposure? I don't know. There certainly are differences between men and women. It doesn't mean one is better than the other... just different. Whether those differences are due to nature or nurture,, I don't know. If anything the current crop of female guitarists are proving that they are just as capable of brilliance. There may also be a generational element. Kids now certainly have a different emphasis in the things that they learn from society at large. A great number seem abnormally obssessed by largely superficial things. Not all by any means, but enough to make a difference. Certainly overall pursuit of anything that takes ongoing commitment (such as learning to play a musical instrument) to time and effort is in decline, in favour of anything that is free and instant. Yet again, not all, but it is noticeable. At the same time, those who remain truly passionate about music still exist. Gender differences? Well one gender certainly wears skirts and makeup more often, which is certainly a demonstrable difference in outlook. Hardly scientific lol I believe wholeheartedly in equal rights, but at the same time I am quite happy that there are differences and really, the diffferences should be celebrated. I am quite happy that some secrets remain to be discovered. I have absolutely no idea if or why one gender shoud be more interested in one thing than another. Our own stereotyping? Who knows.

Hi Gang For fun and benefit, I am looking for 5-8 artists who are interested in exploring what can be done by working together for mutual gain. This group is also about gathering , pooling and applying music market intelligence, tolls, tactics and strategies... experimenting and sharing results. It will mean applying things we know works and trying theories for new and original marketing and promotion. This will also mean looking at your product and brand as a whole, and how you market your music online and in the real world. You must be willing to consider honing your product and brand to increase appeal I will set up a group to do this, if there is any interest. Please only apply if you would be interested in give an ongoing commitment to both your music and the group. Although I am not looking for you to have a budget, be at least willing to consider the prospect of finding a budget in the future. Partcipation and collaborative effort are key. Please also only apply if you are serious about your music and are willing to let me to create articles, reference materials and tutorials based on lessons learned and data gathered, for Songstuff visitors, community members or future subscribers. If we do case studies you will be asked for your permission. At this stage nothing is set in stone. It is an area I have an interest in and have helped others before. Other than fun, and hopefully helping participants, it helps me keep current and try original ideas that go beyond an individual artist. You need not be young, or gigging, but ideally with plans for an EP or album, and with a goal of establishing and growing your fan base. Sound interesting? Fire In a reply, make your case and I will send you a group invite. Note: this is not a product or service, it should be useful, beneficial, but it is more in common with research. Please consider that anything we do should be thought of as being under an NDA, because I would like to decide what and when information and recommendations are released and ensure they are fit for purpose. I reserve the right to use lessons learned to create free, donation ware, or paid articles, products or services for the benefit of Songstuff and its community at some future date. Equally we might just keep this project running for our own information and group benefit only.

I will say this, in just the last couple of years, the number of awesome female guitarists has skyroocketed. Not just good either, awesome. It is great to see. I love talent no matter where it comes from.

Obviously men are better guitarists and mixers. *ducks and runs* in all honesty, I don't know if there is a reason. Men tend to be more interested in tech, more into games etc. They have better spatial awareness, maybe that has a bearing? Women have better stamina and are good at dividing their time, while men are better at single tasks making them more focused, more single minded. I don't know. Maybe it is something like males find solitary tasks more appealing, so less women choose those?? Women tend to be better at multitasking, great at socialising.... and it maybe feels less appealing to more women? All just speculation!

Many thanks Sumi. Last tear Tom Collins and I were looking into the possibility of providing a demo recording service, but a production service would actually be easier. We even looked into doing inhouse recording services. There are certainly possibilities in terms of benefits for members. There is less opportunity in it as a long term income for the site... or at least there are potential issues. The most obvious being that once we hook up a producer and writer, Songstuff would be out the picture. The writer can just go directly to the producer for subsequent work. Fair enough... but the consequence is that any income for the site would soon tail off. The one way we thought of that happening less was if Songstuff sat in the middle... the writer paid Songstuff, and Songstuff held the money until the job was done in a satisfactory way, at which point we would pay the producer. There are issues with that, but it does give each party some degree of control. There are other issues and potential solutions.... just showing we have thought about this to a degree and it could be possible. I also like Des's suggestion about song placement... which is normally part if the publishers job, or a specialist song pitcher working on behalf of the publisher. Sometimes it can be on behalf of the label too. This was what I meant by performing some of the services a publisher or label would do. There are other services that compliment this. Similarly I have looked at providing song pitching and music promotion / publicity services. I came up with a potentially very useful concept for Song placement for exposure and awareness as a first stage in placement. I know no one else is doing it, and it would give our writers an awesome platform for their writing. I still need to come up with a similarly awesome platform for writers who also want to be the primary performer... but I rely on the creativity of myself, the staff and the broader site to come up with novel approaches that will give our writers the edge in whatever they do. I know there are concerns voiced by Dek and Tim about potential issues. All we can do is do our best to get the benefits for our members while avoiding the pitfalls.... by involving you all as much as possible. The exciting thing is... that when we engage our creative minds on the variety of problems we face as artists, not just the music, we truly can come up with some awesome and unique solutions that should make us stand out. It may not make any of us rich, or famous, but if you each set goals and we can all help you achieve them, I don't think that is a bad thing.