john

As I mentioned somewhere above Peggy, if it is more it is more. Really I just want members to really think about what they want, what they want from this site is secondary. Not just today, but tomorrow... to look at what they need, and maybe just maybe it will be a good fit for Songstuff too. Tim mentioned above if someone else other than Songstuff can do it, members can just go there, and that is very true... however, if, for example, 99% of members wanted to place music with music libraries, then if we could reach a fast track deal with the top 3 libraries, that would help members and it saves us reinventing the wheel. The solution too might be for Songstuff to start it's own... but I doubt that. By telling us where you need help, 3, 5, 10 ways, you at least afford us the opportunity to look at it. Part of the consideration has to be whether it would be good for the community or not... but really, if most members want something, it helps them, it is doable, it is maintainable, and it doesn't harm the community, I would have to ask why not? So please put your list out there. It may well prompt others and take the discussion in interesting directions

Oh and I realise some of the numbers I used were big. The point was if you had a method that made such things possible. Whatever is done, the proof of the pudding has to be in the eating. The numbers could just as easily be 10,000 as opposed to 20 million, for example. They seem almost as unrealistic to an indie artist or writer. Almost lol indeed you could keep expectation down by saying I'll get you 500 listens and then completely over deliver. The fact is we live in an internet world where large numbers are possible. To us? Less likely, but ultimately may be possible at some point were that to be the way people said they wanted help. How? That's another topic for another day lol certainly 50 million would be at the far extreme end of possibility, and long way from being possible right now. It would take focus and effort, and by the time even mentioning such a number to propective customers became a possibility, a track history of achieving lower numbers would have to be achieved. Where there is a will, there is a way. in truth much depends on your goals, and what people have to trade to get them, and if people are willing to pay that price... and I don't mean giving anything to Songstuff. if you have the means, but not the proof, making sales is very difficult. If you have a method, but no track record of dependability taking money for it would be risky and if you were entirely honest to people, a very hard sell. If you were not honest, if you misrepresented, that is trading on people's dreams, and fraudulent. If you are honest, offer help for free and use that to establish a track record? Use it to fine tune your process and hone your results. Then it gets interesting. If I sell you a Ferrari telling you that you can afford it on welfare payments, as long as you can actually afford it, and it is a genuine Ferrari, the Ferrari you were expecting, there is nothing wrong with that. If I told you it would make you sexually irresistible and that you could make millions just by having it, that would be playing on your dream. If I knew you could not afford it but still sold it to you knowing everyone would think you stole it, that would be unethical. I am not for one minute saying getting you 50 million plays is likely, possible right now, or recommending that it would be your optimum "track to stardom" or even trying to say that you should have a path to stardom. However, if you were a writer looking to raise awareness of your songs, and you came to me saying "I want to increase the exposure of my music and me as a writer. I want to place my song with an artist who will get it heard. Can you help?", if I could help, I would try my hardest to make it happen while being honest with the person that approached me.. Once upon a time building a site the size of Songstuff seemed unreal. All that aside.... t this point I simply want to put my efforts into something members will find useful, be that adding to what we have, or looking at something new. Who knows. If members do not want more articles etc, do not want anything other than a free forum, I may well just stop development on SS and focus on my own needs for a change. On a bright note, I have been back making music and recording again. Maybe I will just do that! Lol At this stage I just want to see what people want, to work out if that fits with Songstuff and if it fits for me. Anything else is conjecture, what ifs and maybes. it all starts with what Songstuff could do that would really help you. Whatever I do, I want it to be worthwhile, to you and to me.

Interesting how this topic has evolved. Selling products was not why I posted. I appreciate it, but I honestly wasn't fishing for thanks. Sure it is nice when people spontaneously recognise your efforts and express their gratitude, but I don't go looking for it. What started as a simple question about what Songstuff could do to help you, the site members, has turned into a discussion about Songstuff selling you something you don't want or need, including the inescapable: Songstuff selling people pipe dreams. I didn't mention dreams. I didn't mention Songstuff selling a road to success. I didn't even mention Songstuff selling anything until Tim mentioned paid memberships. Lol So the local "all you can eat buffet" is free. It has a few regulars. You notice someone puts a donations box at the door. A poster for a nearby store goes up. You know the building has rents, and the food itself costs money. Then you are asked what things you would like on the menu, but are also asked to think how much it costs, because depending what you ask for will effect if they can provide it or not. They give a bunch of suggestions, but ask you to come up with your own too. Of course they haven't said anything about selling anything to anyone. They have just asked for some menu suggestions. Yet some of the regulars still say "Whatever you would be selling, I don't want it.", or even "It sounds like you want to sell us something dodgy, maybe even magic mushrooms.". It is saddening in some ways. It's a cynical industry full of sharks and hopeful dreamers. ok, I know in response to Tim I did mention some cost might be necessary depending on what people wanted, if we couldn't find another way, but I also don't know how that automatically amounts to selling people dreams. For example, with publishing, administration deals are much more common, as is self-publishing. I have several friends who self-publish, although none do it well. Even within self-publishing there are a number of services, such as dealing with licensing, song pitching etc that a self-publisher might want to take advantage of? At this stage it is not about if Songstuff can find a way to do it. Members may come back and say they want guidelines, or templates. They might say they would love some boilerplate contracts. They might say they want bums in seat help to actually do some of it. They might say they have no interest in any of it. In the reams of the record company, there are those who want to set up their own label. They may or may not be realistic. They maybe already act in that way but don't even realise it. Maybe we can help them, maybe not. Maybe we give them a stack of info, templates, biz plans, release plans, contracts, launch party kits, press release templates, press kits, site templates or training? Does it make a difference to it's usefulness or accuracy if it is free? Paid? Maybe they want help getting reviews, promoting effectively, getting tour slots, getting publicity, and maybe we can help? Maybe not. Maybe we just write free articles and reviews. Maybe we realise no one wants any of that crap, and I can stop pushing myself to help people who do not want helped. Maybe I just help those who do want help. Maybe I sell the site and live happily ever after on the 50 cents it sells for. Lol Maybe we can give production advice workshops? Free, sure, we know people who have experience and are willing. What, you want Mark Ronson? I think we might have to charge tickets to be able to afford him. Are you still be interested? Out of interest, no money need change hands in order to get someone to buy into what you are "selling" them. Songstuff already has articles about promo, song writing, recording, fans and engagement, a whole bunch of music industry related stuff. Do you guys think we are unfairly pitching people an unattainable dream as it stands? Do we perpetuate that outlook? I know that charging means a contract, but that is different from selling them something that is known to be defective, or making claims for something that are untrue. Another possibility I know goes on, donations can also be independent of a perk. For example, you donate to something, get a badge, a club membership and a cuddly toy. If it is clear it is a donation, it isn't selling a product. I am not saying we would be doing that, but there are many possibilities about how the site is funded, and they need not be coupled to what we are actually providing. Just say for the sake of argument that we somehow had volunteers to provide a service for free. The exact same service could be provided by paid workers for a fee. What if the workers are not paid in money but some other currency? What if it is a co-op working collaboratively? What if people help to gain experience? What is the customers in this scenario don't pay by cash but with something else, like time and effort? There are a lot of permutations and possibilities. As to getting music out there, what if you could place a song with an artist that got the song 20 million listens? 50 million? No promises of stardom, no making millions, just awareness. What if it could actually make you money? What if we could set something up that could get your music aired on 50 radio stations? 100? What if we merely showed you how? No promises of successful record sales, simply if you want to raise awareness, these are things you can do? What about 90% of the blurb was about why they shouldn't do it, about the ridiculous odds they face? Nothing is defined, set in stone or absolute. None of this is anything but trying to sound out what would help members. Dek, you say tangible leads on sync deals... no matter how unlikely that seems to you at this stage, if there is a demand, we can look at exactly how that could be achieved, brainstorm ideas, and at least look at what is possible. It might get ruled out, but really, nothing ventured nothing gained... by any of us. The best forums are forums. They aren't necessarily free, even if you don't necessarily feel you personally paid, after all viewing an advert didn't exactly cost you. Subscriptions are very common on gaming community forums. The largest music forums are associated with products, even if some are free products, not all are. Even if the forum itself is free, there is still that associated product. FL Studio anyone? Products like Reaper have a "supposed to be paid for" model for their software. Forum hosting is not cheap. Even if this topic were about products to help finance a better community, I would hope we could move forwards avoiding any minefields precisely because they were anticipated, and indeed highlighted, so yes, your points are well made and appreciated. It's unfortunate that selling unwanted dodgy stuff is the ballpark of expectation lol No matter, I am understandably reluctant to invest potentially loads of my time looking into something no one at all is interested in. Nibbles anyone?

Hi Tim Thanks for that. Some good suggestions worth considering! Lose an article on their laptop? Now who would do that? *whistles*. If anything, asking the question is about not spreading ourselves too thin, but finding the best ways of providing value to our members. My giving suggestions was merely that. Something's we might be able to provide something at no cost to members, but at a cost we can absorb, or cover with donations. The consequence of other choices may involve costs we cannot cover by those means. Some may be completely beyond our abilities or budget.The truth is, as I know you know, some things we just cannot do, no matter how much our members want it. Other things, we might find a way. That way might mean charging for it in one way or another. Take publishing or label services. There are standard percentages and models. There are other possibilities too. I have some plans on how we can achieve some of those ideas. Others not yet other than sketchy ideas. I, we, are creative. We can come up with ideas. Perhaps we can provide elements of something to aid members, complimenting what they do themselves? I would love it if we could make a real difference. I believe we already do make some sort of difference. Maybe even a lot of difference to some people. Perhaps that is deluding myself. I am certainly against selling people dreams. What I am pro, is giving people a realistic expectation of what can be achieved. We can't be about making promises. We can give knowledge and understanding. Even some tools and services are possible. I have a concept in mind. I have mentioned it to a few who think it a novel, and creative way of achieving some of these whilst not compromising the integrity of the site or individuals. It is important to at least ask. It helps us focus effort. Like your suggestion for funding, I have a similar idea. Not exactly the same, but related. I will PM you. Cheers John

Ok, well that is... one

Hi gang! I am planning on some new development, but there are many things we could put our effort into.... and I want to know what you would like to see. What would make a real difference to you? If you were to name 3 things, in order of importance, that would make a real difference to you and your music right now, what would they be? Can I ask one other thing? If you were to buy such a thing... how much do you realistically think it would cost you? I ask, because we do a lot here on Songstuff for free. In fact everything! Lol While you may well value Songstuff overall, you may not have thought how valuable the different elements are to you. The trouble is, people do not always value what they get for free. Members often say they had no idea how extensive what we offer is. They may not always agree on how they value something. We we may not currently offer these things, though we may offer components. Some may already be planned for, in development or simply conceived. So, in addition to what would make a difference to you, I thought it would be interesting for you to also have in mind how valuable that would be to you. Because we don't want to waste time developing or creating something you dont want or need, or that you wouldn't value when you got it! A short list as an example: Learning about : Song writing Recording Production Music marketing and promotion Self-Publishing Setting up a label for your music Strategies to make money from your music How to build a website for your music Fan engagement Building and leveraging contacts Record launches Playing an instrument Services: Recording, Production and Mastering Services Music marketing and promotion services Music Publishing and Music publishing support services Tour support (marketing and promotion) Getting reviews Launch promo PRO guidance (getting you and your songs registered with PROs) Workshops Items: Promo automation tools and training Social engagement tools Promo collaboration tools Music gear (hardware or software) Resources: Music Industry contact database Discount coupons for products and services More money 20 staff Just to give some suggestions. Please answer honestly. While we could do many on this directly, others we might be able to arrange... others things you might say may well not be possible (make me a multi-millionaire by tomorrow lunchtime!).., but I want to know what would help you. Feel free to expand and give details, explain your reasons and your reasoning, or be brief. cheers John Remember, rank them in order of importance. If you want to give a longer list, great! Just as long as you genuinely consider them as something you would want, to make a real difference to YOU.

Hi SuperProducer, welcome aboard! Mahesh is awesome. Excellent that you are following his diaries! He will no doubt say hello here. what's your name? Or do you want to be called "SuperProducer" or SP etc?

Hi Caleb. Welcome to Songstuff

Hi and welcome to Songstuff Igor!

Hi and welcome to Songstuff! Scotland is indeed brilliant in my perhaps biased opinion

Our posts crossed. Lol We can end the discussion, talk elsewhere if you want. It is interesting to me, different perspectives always are. I maybe coming over as grumpy as I feel crap. Unintentional

Interestingly he he doesn't say what, if anything he hoped for, or didn't hope for. For example, he is there to just dance his dance, if you get it, great, if not great... he does not say "I don't care about the outcome". Another conclusion could be that he doesn't want the observer to feel bad for not getting it. He could hope they get it, but he won't cry if they don't. By equivalence, I am not saying he should dance his dance in his bedroom, or sitting room, or a cave, or the middle of a forest. That was not my intent regarding Rama either. Rather that if the listener or viewer is really unimportant, it should be unimportant where it happens. Completely. It may as well be in a bedroom. if it is important to be performed to others.... then surely it must be that the listener is an important factor... be that for the listener/viewer's experience or the performer / writer, or a combination of the two? Perhaps the venue is important, but then whether people are there to hear it should be unimportant.

I'll answer in separate posts, because it makes it easier and my available time at any one point doesn't lend itself to a huge post Now it becomes clearer. Your inference is incorrect. You described an approach which you characterised as egoless. I said it sounded less like egoless, more in common with self-indulgent or self-absorbed. I said 'akin to' instead of 'in common with', I could have said 'like', but the meaning is the same. Your inference assumes that what you describe is egoless lol It could be, but is not necessarily. I do not know Rama, so I cannot say... other than from my experience of people who have been similarly focused on their vision. They were not egoless. I did not assume such for Rama. I can only comment on my experience of other people. Most people, and like you I include myself in this, are a mix. They do it for themselves and for others. Equally I know some people who make music for the taste of others. Some of those do it purely for money. No doubt there are rare gems who do it purely for others in an altruistic sense. Similar to what you describe for someone who does it without any concern for others, I just have not met anyone like that. One does not necessitate the other. in this we seem to agree. The issue seems to be in that you inferred I meant a one to one equivalence. If I had said, it IS NOT egoless it IS self-indulgent or self-absorbed....then I could see your point. My doubt is based upon my experience of writers and artistes who have had no concern for listeners at all. Some were bullies. Most were arrogant. Does this mean all who do not care of listeners experience are this way? No. Maybe there are many more who feel like this but do not shout it from the rooftops, who do not publicly identify their motivations and considerations. Indeed as they are silent, maybe they are majority of this kind of writer. I do not know Rama, as I mentioned before. I cannot say what his approach was or why. For that I rely on you lol I may have been better to say "could be self-absorbed, or self-indulgent", or probably better to have said nothing at all. The topic is meant to be about your music, not whether Rama is an egoless musician, or not. Interesting or not the conversation has gone down a rabbit hole. I did not mean to insult Rama or you. My experience is my experience, but I did not need to bring it up here.

I think you misunderstand and infer things from what I said as if I said them, when I did not. I am not sure what you are disagreeing with as I did not chisel anything in stone. I don't think of caring about listener experience as strictly to do with making a living from music, although if you want to make a living from music caring about listener experience is important. Still there is no obligation, only action and likely consequence. Neither do I think there is an obligation to do music for others. There is, for me, as an observer, a contradiction in not caring about listeners experience on one hand, while wanting them to experience it... which is a fundamental reason for sharing, be that to get paid, to see reactions, or for some other reason you want others to share your experience... on some level it is clearly important that others get the experience you are giving them. I was not saying such artists should play in their bedroom. I was highlighting the nature of sharing. That if sharing is not important, they may as well be playing in their bedroom. If sharing is important, then there is a contradiction in that in one hand listeners are important or necessary, while on the other they are unimportant. As I said, Rama may not be that guy. I did not say anything was a rule, obligation or written in stone. I did not say anyone was a bad man. Free will means anyone can do what they want, call it what they want. I said to me it is weird to have that contradiction I mentioned above. Music is fundamentally communication. You express yourself. A monologue can be done alone. It is not about connection, other than your own connection to the words, or in this case the music. A conversation requires two people at a minimum (or if spiritual an other, a god, the universe). To be understood, a connection is made on some level, be that with a person, a group, a god, the universe. Can you create something that is an of itself? Absolutely. If I compare this to food: You can make food and not care if anyone eats it. That is your right. This would simply be the joy of creating. I may want to do this outside, but it really does not matter where I make it. It is not for others. It isn't even for you. It is about the creation process, which as I don't care about people eating it, could be anywhere, including my bedroom. You can make food and not care if anyone eats it., but you. That is your right. Commonly, if you did this, I would expect you to want to enjoy the food you make or to tweak it until you did like it. It would be uncommon to want to make food that you didn't enjoy unless you were doing it purely as a learning exercise. Yes it could be for the joy of creating, but it would be unusual to not at least be interested in what was thought of the creation, by at least yourself. That is how we learn. You could make it outside, but there is no NEED for it to be anywhere other than private. This is not an instruction. You can make food and want others to eat it. You can do this too, for the joy of creation. But it would be unusual to do so and not care whether anyone liked it. You may have reasons other than whether people liking it, for wanting them to eat it. You can make food, want people to eat it, want them to enjoy it This is probably the most common. It is quite independent from wanting to make a living as a chef, though if you do want to be a chef, people liking your food is pretty damn important. None of this is rules, or carved in stone. I am just describing the main options when making food. The same would be true for music. There is a difference between the creation process which outputs a creative work, and the need to then show people or not. Caring about others or not runs through both processes.. i dont know what association you think think is unfair and inaccurate. There is action and consequence. Electronic Engineering If I was to express that using a DC power supply, I could regulate current using a variable resistor that was also a unipolar switch, in series connection with a filament, such that I could control the incandecense of the filament, some people would get instantly what I was talking of. Some would not. The more complex components I introduce using such language, the smaller the group that would understand me would be. By knowing this I could change my language to say that I was going to connect a dimmer switch to a battery and build so that I could control the brightness of the bulb and turn it on and off. I am talking of the same thing, yet almost everyone understands. While I understand I am not obligated, there is action and consequence. While everything need not be dumbed down for global understanding, there is consequence. Less people get it. Often when we create something for and of a closed group, we share it only with the closed group. When it goes beyond that group we have to adjust our language and explain what is meant so it is understood, or we ask people to ignore it after we try to explain it a few times and are met with glazed eyes. That is why papers on neuroscience are published in specialist journals, not in newspapers. When the results do spill onto the general press language is adjusted and the concepts simplified. Arrogance was my general (not exclusive) experience of the few people who have created music so firmly for themselves. It was not a comment on Rama. I don't know the guy and haven't worked with him. We've departed a fair way from the song and video. Motivations, intentions and personality aside, abstracted references to Krishna are not unwelcome, they just are not seen by those not in the know. They become unrelated squiggles and colours on top of seemingly unrelated images. A little thought, to cater for dumb listeners might have helped the video, and perhaps helped the message of the lyrics, to be delivered even more effectively to a wider audience. While perhaps not intending to make a living from music might seem an important factor, we as artistes do ask people to spend their money (sometimes for some artistes), and certainly their time, on our music. Asking them to do so may or may not have an obligation, but surely it warrants consideration? If it doesn't, can we blame them if they walk away? Lastly, the joy of making music is built within almost all musicians. Considering others, connecting to others etc has a varying level of influence on the creation process, depending on who we are, and what our purpose is. I would think very few make music purely for personal gain. Certainly not those who play with others or perform. We also do it for comradeship,a shared experience, connection.. especially with other musicians. Out of interest, can you imagine gigs where no one claps, no one reacts? Not at all? I doubt many musicians would like many gigs with no reactions. As a thought experiment: We all know music can elicit strong reactions. It is no surprise people use music to get hyped, get relaxed, even to make love. What if there was a direct correlation, proveable, between the music we perform and reactions... such as murder, conception, dishonesty, assault, rape, happiness etc? The fact is... there is. We all know it. True, the strongest of reactions are rare, but they happen. Say it was a sure thing. Would we care then what our audience experience was?

Sorry for going off-topic Mahesh!

That makes sense, although I wouldn't have thought it egoless, it sounds more akin to self-indulgent or being self-absorbed, to be so unconcerned for the experience of your listeners. Interesting that it is about personal connection and personal journey, and limited communication with a small group, when my understanding of Krishna is that of love and the interconnectedness of all things. Rama is not alone in this approach to music. I find it weird, because to me, music is fundamentally about communication and connection. Meanwhile Rama seems to be doing the equivalent of putting up posters to tell you he is going to play beautiful, crafted music, for his own pleasure in a sealed room somewhere, so that you can turn up and hear a muffled version of what he is doing. There is a duality in such musicians. A mixed message. On one hand they do not care about you or your needs, yet they feel a burning desire to tell you that they don't care lol. If they really don't care, why not be content to keep playing alone in their bedroom? In my experience thus far in life, such approaches tend to come from arrogance. A strong, uncompromising need to be recognised and be accepted for who they are. To feel understood. That people get them. While at the same time saying, well if you don't get me, screw you. That does not negate the experience of working with such people, and Rama may not be that guy, but you perfectly describe the symptoms of such duality. People are strange. Artistes are stranger! Lol

It comes down to layers of meaning, and who Rama wants to communicate with. For example, is this music and the video solely for Indians and followers of Krishna? If the answer is yes, all well and good. If he would like it to go beyond those listeners, then perhaps accommodating a means of connection for them too might be helpful. As a general point, abstraction can be thought of as "represents" or "is representative of", also "is a type of". For example, a stool and a chair can both be abstracted as a seat, which in turn can be abstracted as furniture. There is still a connection. If the video narrative, such as it is, is a religious one, then yes, people from other religions and cultures may not see connections. I know a little about Krishna but I certainly am not familiar enough to have seen the connections. As you mentioned, it is similar to song writing. As a writer we have to have some mind towards who we are talking to, and being understood. Commonly, we talk to specific groups on one level, but accommodate a broader understanding. In this, from what you say, at a visual level, Rama has left messages for a specific group, while neglecting a broader listener. Musically, there is a far broader appeal. It is not simply traditional worship music. So for me, musically, Rama is reaching beyond that core listener who will automatically get these visual abstractions. Hell, you even suspect there are ones you are not aware of even though you are far more aware of the frames of reference. The risk of such hidden or obscured messages is that large numbers of viewers would be left cold, at best, or marginalised at worst.... a bit like knowing there are in jokes amongst friends. You hear the odd person laughing, while you feel excluded from the joke. You are never sure if they are laughing at you. A joke only for those in the know. Not exactly a huge issue for one video of one song... but if it were a trend? That would be concerning. It would seem crazy to create music with broad appeal, only to cater for a small core visually. I hope that makes sense. Just to be clear, I know it is not your main project, but at the same time you should feel rightfully proud. I really am not trying to take this apart, run it down or otherwise undermine it's value. Indeed, were it something with more limited appeal, I would probably not have bothered saying something... however, as a general point of interest and discussion, relevant to all of us music makers, it is only on having drilled down and talking about it, that had enable us all to put our finger on exactly what works and what doesn't work here, instead of being vaguely aware that the video, not the song, was leaving me disconnected. Cold. A little underwhelmed. Without really getting why that should be the case, when I enjoyed the song. On a purely musical note... while I enjoy this, and appreciate it's detail, it doesn't hold as much emotional pull as your own songs. With your own music the emotion is palpable, ever present, oozing and building to burst the banks like an over full river. Musically, both are very good. They are quite different entities. That said... I am looking forward to the rest of the Blushing Satellites album.

Abstract is one thing, but it is the connection between the music and what you are viewing in abstract. For example, a cartoon plumber is an abstraction of a real plumber. A Picasso portrait of a woman is an abstraction of a specific woman, and she in turn could be viewed as an abstraction of all women. Abstraction is a view of something from a step, or several steps away. A layer above. It is what makes the difference between an abstract portrait, and just some meaningless lines and pretty colours. High can be taken and interpreted many ways. Abstracted in many ways. The video has some loose connections, but for me it tends to fall on the "pretty images with coloured lines" end of the scale, whereas, it's impact could have been more meaningful with some thought of the abstraction. Success in music, as measured by the popularity of a song, is all about connection between the listener, the song and the performer. Images can either strengthen that connection, weaken that connection, compliment that connection, or be ambiguous. Something can be very abstract and yet be any of those. I don't mean to dwell on the negative point, for what is overall, very good. I am just clarifying the point based on your 'abstract' comment. If Rama is not an experienced visual artist, never mind someone who combines the two, the need for meaning and connection at all levels, in order to have strong meaning and connection for the listener or viewer, is easily overlooked.

There's a sound / feel, that reminds me of a slow Jamiroquai. My only real constructive comment would be to reinforce the connection between the music and the imagery. It could certainly be stronger, or more obvious. Other than that, the quality is all there in both image and music. Good job Blushing Satellite:)

hellooooooooooo Welcome to Songstuff

Hi and welcome to Songstuff!

You can post music videos for critique to the song and recording critique board

A big part of the cost is the studio itself. All that gear is expensive. So is acoustically treating and soundproofing the studio. All that gear also means a fairly large power draw. Then there is using studio downtime to learn new tech, the latest bit of gear. Buying new gear, planning stydio changes etc. Just like rehearsal time, gear, transport and a bunch of other costs are hidden costs to fans, bands still have to pay them. Dek is right about costs not going up. High end studios are more expensive... and the further up the ladder you go the more people sit in the control room. One of the studios I worked with would sometimes see 3 or 4 people (Head Sound Engineer, Assistant Sound Engineer, GoFer, and a Producer, though the GoFer was usually free, working for experience) in demo studios it is more common to have a single sound engineer who is often the studio owner. Changing tech has made the assistant sound engineer role almost redundant in many studios. Even more so in this period of lower musical income. Pre-automation, in large desk studios, more hands were needed to manage faders and mutes on the desk, during mix down, with the engineers and even producer having to rehearse a mix, just like another performance. Not needed in 99.9% of studios now.. As a sound engineer, there is a more steady income from television and film. Freelancing Engineers (not bound to a specific studio) often get a mix of live, studio and film and TV? Whatever is the paying gig. Touring gives good rates, but there are periods without work and of course the inconvenience of touring. Many studios have closed their doors and many sound engineers and producers have left the industry. Piracy and the Google and streaming/sharing site's war on the music industry has resulted in the loss of so much talent, and a lot of full-time people going part-time. Sad. It has had an impact right across all aspects of the music industry. @richard you know I am very cautious about you using a producer, especially before choosing your songs for the project. Afterall, you have the technical and creative capability to finish songs, but you lack focus. You are too easily distracted by what is new. That new patch. Effect. Chord change or discovered melody.. You are always impatient to move forward, and possibly find the detail stage of editing less engaging and less stimulating than the exciting brainstorming stage. Combine that with not being sufficiently motivated to get across the finishing line. Largely I think you lack confidence in what you do. You question it (which is healthy) but your lack of confidence means you are plagued by self-doubt. I think it is for this more than anything that you are looking for someone else to contribute, yes, but equally important I think you need the verification and validation that someone you believe in can give you. Very I mportantly, it not an issue with your music. You have strong opinions about music, but when it comes to your own music, doubt robs you of self-belief. I am sure you know all this. Part of this, in my experience, is often a degree of fear. Fear of making a statement and being judged. Fear of settling for what you have when 5 minutes more experimenting might yield that one bit that really makes that song work. Fear of carving it in stone. Sadly, in experimenting, shiny paper syndrome gets you as you discover something new and exciting and... off you go, a new song evolves, while the current song languishes, unfinished, pushed aside, cast off. After all, if you never finish, your music cannot be judged, because whatever people hear, it is not the finished article. It is a very, very common issue for songwriters. For creatives in general. Carved in stone? We'll sort of. Songs are re-written, rearranged, re-recorded, remixed, all the time! Mistakes? So what. As long as you learn from them, all will be well. You share songs here, where it is safe to make mistakes and learn, where issues are not perceived as "permanent". That threshold you cope with well. That said, if you have budget and view it as chance to learn, asking for explanations, watching what is done, it could be a great (though expensive) way to learn. That will only work if you are open to learning, and can gain enough confidence from the process, the producer and the result, to overcome your fear of possibly missing that vital ingredient that will make your song perfect. Still, it remains, that for you, working with a producer might just be enough to help boost your confidence that your music, that your song, really is good enough. Certainly a good producer will help you cross that finishing line. If nothing else, it is a huge part of their job! So for you, perhaps it is the answer. At least for one song. You seem willing to learn from others on the boards and elsewhere, and your songs do evolve and improve. However, I can't help thinking that if you could only complete a couple of songs largely on your own, even with bits of guidance on specific issues from people you respect, the confidence you would gain would be massive. There would be no stopping you. You work at your music. You grow. You enjoy hat you do. Completing a song is an important psychological step. Whatever you do, I am sure you will create some great finished songs (unless you choose not to finish them!) and some day soon, this dilemma will be in the rear view mirror. We will still support you and cheer you on.