john

I will however get the rules and registration terms reviewed (as we periodically do) to ensure that Songstuff is adequately protected and that our members are protected to the fullest extent that we can offer. Lastly, Songstuff is hosted in Germany, and the entity "Songstuff" is based in Scotland, UK. As such Scottish and UK laws apply (the same as US law applying to US based websites). Publication is as I understand it, constituted by public display or performance. Either way our terms and conditions / rules cover the site and members in this regard be it US laws or UK laws, EU law etc. I am not a lawyer or entertainment law expert so I can only act on the legal advice I receive. The advice I offer to members comes from my own experience as a publisher for 12 years and from many years as a songwriter and musician. I understand you need to feel protected, as do I, so I want the terms and rules to reflect that. Hence getting them checked I will draft an even more clearly expressed copyright section and get it checked over / edited by a legal eagle

To the contrary, by our forum rules (and any forum for that matter) Songstuff is given rights to distribute what you post... otherwise i could potentially have been in deep Kaka. From the Privacy Statement: Songstuff reserves the right to contact members (site or forum or newsletter) about their membership, and provide information on services they have signed up for. This includes information about the forum, for forum users, about member services and artist pages for site members, and newsletters for newsletter subscribers. Songstuff reserves the right to use submitted material to promote Songstuff and it's members. Songstuff reserves the right to edit any submitted material. By accepting this privacy statement, applying members or article and news authors grant Songstuff the right to edit their submissions. Extract from the "Registration Terms and Rules" (displayed on sign up): Copyright By posting your writings here, you consent to allow Songstuff to display your posted work on Songstuff without limitation or financial compensation, now or in the future.Do not to post any copyrighted material unless the copyright is owned by you or by this bulletin board. Exrtact from the "Board Rules" (link bottom right of board listing above the footer showing links to different sections of the site): Copyright By posting your writings here, you consent to allow Songstuff to display your posted work on Songstuff without limitation or financial compensation, now or in the future.Do not to post any copyrighted material unless the copyright is owned by you or by this bulletin board. It also states that by completing sign up that you accept these conditions. These conditions have been in place since this forum was created. We have never once abused the privilege we are given by our members. Quite simply, if I or any other forum did not have such a clause we would not be able to display what you write anywhere without potentially infringing copyright . Personally, I like my house! lol Cheers John

Songs From The Wood - Jethro Tull

yes to the first part. the second question is less certain. if they made money from it then you can sue for lost earnings and damage to your reputation, personal damages etc. If they didn't make a commercial release then you cannot sue for loss of earnings. As loss of earnings tends to be the larger part of any financial settlement and with damage to your reputation and personal damages being harder to prove, it is rarely financially effective for you to pursue someone who has not made a commercial release. That said, unless they acted as a limited company, if found liable then they can lose all their assets. Car, home etc. The trouble is that it costs a lot to fight effectively (although if you are a member of a musician's union or songwriter's union they often offer legal advice), and it can last a long time (they refuse to pay, they appeal etc.) But... the damage done to their reputation (personal and professional) can be very far reaching. Should it become known that an infringement has occurred and people are invited to compare the two works, and the dates the works were created etc. then very quickly they will find themselves shunned. People have long memories. Quite soon they find themselves hounded from any community online, comments show up on their band/music pages, they have their songs removed from audio hosts (they don't want to be supporting songs that are in contention unless they have to), their posts on other forums are removed and pretty soon they realise it was NOT worth their while in stealing the song. The result being that any remaining locations where that work can be found they themselves remove it. Songwriters do not like or trust people who misrepresent work. As a result the offender will find it hard to find people to work with, or collaborate with them. The effects last years. I've even seen occasions where a collaboration that went wrong and one of the authors decided to publish under their own name (removing the other's name) (happened on another forum originally) well that one moment in time followed them for years, across forums, site to site, new boards and communities, each time resulting in that member having their posts removed and their reputation damaged, even in some cases being banned. Forum owners in particular must trust members not to infringe on copyright (along with lots of other things like not posting hate topics etc). If they find that they cannot trust the member, they do not believe them to be honest, well simply they do not have time to check all that member's posts, so they realistically cannot allow them to remain an active member. Similarly they cannot trust any of the previous posts by that person so those have to be removed too. Now a work in progress lyric that shows how and when it was developed will help those other webmasters decide to take this action. It's not just on the internet. Even bands who have a writer who is accused of such things (and yes in this day and age if it is on the net it will leak back to their real world, aint social networking great?) the band can no longer trust the songs that person has written, wondering when they will collectively get hit with a lawsuit... so it threatens their ability to write for that band... or publisher etc. As I said, the possible implications are huge. Make sense?

Hi Lil Orange If you read this topic it explains a lot of the issues involved: In essence it discusses posting lyrics (could be music or full song) on your own site, any forum (including Songstuff) and registering your songs with the US copyright office. In simple terms, there is nothing to stop anyone using your lyrics be it on Songstuff, any forum, inside a book, on an album cover... what posting it on a forum does do: it PUBLISHES it. The post is date and time stamped and constitutes a basic level of protection under international copyright law. It is not as strong within the US as it would be if you register your finished work with the US copyright office. We are considering a completely members only board for work under development with a public board for finished works. This might seem ideal in that it reduces the number of people who will see / hear your work, however there may be legal implications in the fact that it is not published publicly. We are seeking advice about this before going either way. Our forums have been running for 11 years (this location since 2004). Over that time there have been less than 10 reported copyright infringements. Several of those were down to one individual who repeatedly joined using different email addresses and then posted Mariah Carey lyrics professing they were his lyrics. Oh and one Britney Spears song. If someone does steal your work our site takes it very seriously. We ban that individual, report them to other forums and songwriting communities. This would result in them being banned on those sites too. Other people then come to see where the original was posted. If they agree the work was listed in part or in total the offending songwriter's name would rapidly be mud. Forums that sow your work developing are very useful in defending copyright claims as they can show the history of the development of the work which is a very useful thing when it comes to proving it was your work! Registering copyright ANYWHERE does not stop anyone stealing anything. That includes the US copyright office. What copyright does do is say that at this specified date, this specified person or persons, or entity, claimed authorship and so established copyright by means of publication or publication and registration. This proof is then used in a civil court to aid proof of copyright infringement. If a songwriter was found to have done this in the modern day no one would touch them with a barge pole. A quick way to trash your own career. A quick way to trash your reputation and any street cred they might think they have derived from publishing another's work and claiming it as their own (the latter being the most common type of copyright infringement I have seen on this board or any other). It can also cost them any assets they own if they have made money from it. Lastly, to my knowledge, there have been ZERO reported cases on Songstuff, in all those years, of anyone financially benefiting from stealing anothers work. No reported court cases. On all occasions any offending work has been removed from wherever it is posted, on Songstuff or elsewhere. We try to aid our members whenever possible and that includes contacting other webmasters or being available to answer questions to other webmasters regarding any posted work and it's timeline. I hope that answers your questions and puts your mind at rest. If you have any further questions please don't hesitate to ask.

Hey Lil Orange... welcome to Songstuff!

Hi jthompson, welcome to Songstuff It sounds like you have plenty iof useful skills. No need to say sorry lol Believe me, I have seen much longer posts! I look forward to getting to know you and if I can help just give me a shout. Cheers John

Hey maxaugust10, welcome to Songstuff! A good and detailed intro. I hope you added all that info and more to your profile About Me page

Oo I just realised that I hadn't welcomed you to Songstuff... so Welcome to Songstuff!

Thanks both for your comments and endorsements. I really should get around to gathering testimonials from members! @pskains no worries... I just wanted to state the case in case anyone else took it that way

Hey pskains Out of interest that is the community we try to have here. We don't host audio or run charts. Still some people want reviews but can't be bothered giving one or simply giving a one line review. That said there are plenty of members who do listen, consider and offer genuine comments. The sad fact is that obvious, or obscured, people in general are transactional. To many, so it seems, it's more important to feel you are getting something for free than it to feel you are contributing positively to something such as another's well being or even in the running of a community site such as Songstuff. Songstuff has been running for more than 11 years, trying to build a true community of the form you describe. Such communities rely upon members "taking part", being as interested in the community as each other's music. One needs the other. Just my two cents!

A great first article for Songstuff by vocal coach Ken Taylor discusses three simple and effective ways to improve your singing range while at the same time addressing some common vocal issues. To read the full article just click on the link... 3 Ways To Improve Your Singing Range Please leave Ken some comments and suggestions by replying to this topic.