The Blues

[Lazz]

Hi guys.

What does ‘the blues’, as a song structure, mean to you?

I posed the question on a recent song thread and was ignored into oblivion.

But I am still keen to know and very curious to hear your answers.

[Jules]

To me, the blues always has lines repeated, generally through the verse, or at the start. It's always about sad topics. And sometimes it will be the same line repeated but slightly altered.

And the chorus always sounds similiar to the verse, so much so that you can't tell that it's the chorus until you hear it the second time. And because the verses are repeated, it's hard to tell which is which.

The above may be a load of nonsense, but when I think "blues" that's the kind of thing I think. If I was made to write a blues song, it would probably follow the above.

[Lazz]

Thanks, Jules.

...It's always about sad topics.

How about the Beatles' "Why Don't We Do It In The Road" ?

That's a blues.

So is "Hound Dog" (by Jerry Leiber and Mike Stoller, not Elvis).

Neither of which strike me as 'sad'.

And the chorus always sounds similiar to the verse, so much so that you can't tell that it's the chorus until you hear it the second time. And because the verses are repeated, it's hard to tell which is which.

Do you have a couple of illustrative examples to help me follow your thinking ?

Anyone else ?

[Lazz]

Ah.

Satire.

My favourite.

[john]

Hey Lazz

There's lot of different flavours of blues. 12 bar being one of the standards but the song forms vary.

Musically it is characterised by evoking a "blue" mood using flattened 3rd notes of the scale, and/or flattened 5ths or 7ths.

Thematically, yes blues does tend to dabble in the darker side of human nature, but it is also evocative and emotional and sometimes pretty cheeky.

As I said blues has many flavours and derivatives. Blues Rock, and more generally rock music is blues based. It's influences are far reaching and permeate much of modern popular music.

I love playing delta blues on the geetar, and much of my lead style is blues based, though my chord choices and song structures owe as much to folk music or pop music.

Cheers

John

[Lazz]

Crikey, you're up late again !!

There's lot of different flavours of blues. 12 bar being one of the standards but the song forms vary.

Well - I only have 3 blues forms rattling in my pocket: 12-bar, 8-bar, and 16-bar (same as 8-bar only double feel, so maybe it doesn't really count as a separate animal). And the variations outside of structure are the changes - either more or less sophisticated.

My curiosity was piqued by a recent lyric by our Sam (Newman, that is) which he was conceiving as a blues - but I was having trouble making it stand up inside blues structure - a challenge I have experience before with the odd and occasional submission here that has been labelled 'blues'. So I am just interested in what others think it means in terms of form.

(I'm sure Nick knows perfectly well what's going on - it's just hard to hold his impish smile back sometimes.)

[roxhythe]

You may be right about those flatted whatses. Though when I wrote "Blood on the Floor Blues," I deliberately did a country lead, without those flatted whatses, and it came out pretty okay, and nobody said, "Hey, that ain't no blues!"

I'm not sure there's a stock format--at least, not any more. There are plenty of variations. I have a couple of blues songs that don't follow any of the format things abovedescribed, but are still recognizably blues.

Lyrically, the best description I've seen of the blues is "It's about waking up in the morning." Not necessarily sad stuff, but more determination--no matter what curve ball you just got thrown, you're going to deal with it somehow, because, well, you did wake up this morning.

Interesting thread, guys.

Joe

[neoism]

hey sorry to intrupt you old guys...

but i just wanna know what is this 3 bars, 8 bars....and all those...

please some-one explain...i wanna know more....

Regards, Prayag

[thelevellers]

I believe that in reference to the Blues it is the number of baers before the music repeats and loops. So basically the length of the main chord progression....

I could be wrong though.

And just to make sure, you know what a 'bar' is in musical terms, right? (don;t worry if you don't, we'll learn yeh! )

[roxhythe]

I thought it was because most blues is played in bars. <g>

Joe

[Jules]

Thanks, Jules.

How about the Beatles' "Why Don't We Do It In The Road" ?

That's a blues.

So is "Hound Dog" (by Jerry Leiber and Mike Stoller, not Elvis).

Neither of which strike me as 'sad'.

Do you have a couple of illustrative examples to help me follow your thinking ?

Anyone else ?

Oh no, I know, as I said, it's probably just a misconception, but for some reason that's what I think when I think Blues. I don't have any specific examples, just blues songs that I can remember hearing. It's quite bizzare.

[Jules]

Thanks, Jules.

How about the Beatles' "Why Don't We Do It In The Road" ?

That's a blues.

Isn't "Yer Blues" - also by The Beatles, also on The White Album - supposed to be The Beatles attempt at a full-on blues song? For me, growing up listening to The Beatles, Yer Blues was always the eptiome of the blues song. If someone said to me blues, that's the song I would think of. Which is where all my misconceptions about the exact definiton of the phrase may have sprang from. The suicidal lyrics etc. It made me think that's what a blues song is meant to be.

But, in all honesty I don't really have a clue. Does it have to do with lyrical content, musical content or both?

[Lazz]

Isn't "Yer Blues" ... ? If someone said to me blues, that's the song I would think of..... Does it have to do with lyrical content, musical content or both?

Not familiar with 'Yer Blues', Jules - but it sounds like it would be likely to pass muster.

Nothing essentially to do with lyrical content (though there is a lot can be learned from the poetry of the blues).

No need to be sad at all - in those old early roadhouse dives, people liked to get up and dance and have a good time, remember, just like today.

Blues is a simple repeated 12-bar structure that follows a strict basic harmonic progression built, as Tom Tunesmith observes, from the I, IV, and V of whatever key you're playing in - and if that sounds confusing, just remember the first three chords you learned how to grip on a guitar - you can render some workable semblence of the blues just from E (the I chord) and A (the IV) and B7 (the V).

Here goes:

First 4-bars are E7

Bars 5 & 6 are A7, then bars 7 & 8 are back to E7

Bar 10 is B7, bar 11 is A7, and the last 2 bars are E7 again.

Repeat until neighbours complain.

Basically - that's blues.

And I'll bet it already sounds familiar.

Some cool things about the blues:

1. It's so simple and falls so natural on the ear that everybody already knows it.

2. It's so easy that you can already play it and use it.

3. It's so simple that, paradoxically, it allows enormous flexibility in harmonic variations and embellishments.

4. It's so fundamental to popular music that, if you take time to get familiar with those variants (and use the cycle of fifths to examine the patterns involved), then it's a gold mine of learning and discovery.

5. Those variants can give you a big vocabulary of song-writing devices to borrow and fool around with and bend to your own purposes.

I've sketched out a small handful of some of these variations and developments already.

A small span of examples from the play-in-a-day basic model up to some typical Charlie Parker changes.

Over the weekend sometime, I'll scan them ready to post.

Something for everybody.

And all blues.

[Lazz]

Sometimes repeating but that twelve bar is but one of many surely?

Hey - steady on, Nick.

We gotta start somewhere.

Innit ?

Don't rush so quickly.

We ain't on to eight bar blues yet.

And it is seriously hard for me to believe your previous post was anything but tongue in cheek.

If true it seems pretty narrow to me - either that or we're talking about wildly different things here.

Kinda crushed porpoises.

"115 verses" must have been a joke - no?

And what's this about the key of Bb ?

Usually it's in E or A or C - because they are the only keys the guitar-player can fumble with - bass-players, too, as a rule.

As for 'play the blues, man' or 'blow your horn'.... are you serious ?

Have you just recently had some disturbing experiences with incompetent w*nkers ?

Boring players are always going to play boring shit - how can they do anything else, right?

Nothing shocking to me at all about a diminished chord, either.

What's your point with that - exactly ?

Some of the variants I was about to post (because I thought it might actually be helpful) also contain good old altered chords.

So what's your take on the old alt. chord then, Nick ?

You don't think Charlie Parker played blues ?

You don't think Ornette's 'Turnaround' is a vary cool minor blues playground ?

You don't see Herbie's 'Watermelon Man' as a development out of blues form ?

You want to tell me that's 'boring in Bb' ?

And nary a 'woke up this morning' amongst 'em.

But - as I said - we gotta start somewhere.

[Steve]

To me, the 'Blues' is not what you play, but how you play it! And if there was nobody to say 'Blow your Horn' in the band! I'd be mighty disapointed...

[Nick]

You carry on Lazz I'll leave off posting on threads where you're in teaching mode. Bit like on the Chords thread I've removed the posts so they don't get in your way.

Guitarists and bassists only play in E A or C? Very amusing. As I used to play with a keyboard player I learned to play in Eb, Bb etc very early on (without a capo). In the two gigs I play today we play tunes in C, C#, D, Eb, E, F, G, Abm, A, Bb and Bm - must find one to play in F#* just for the hell of it. No mention of Bb being boring in my post if you'd read it.

Never been fond of Ornette Coleman; Herbie Hancock is a huge favourite of mine - though Watermelon Man not; Kind of Blue is wonderful; Charlie Parker I like too

I'll keep well away in future.

*Actually thinking about it Alistair's Falling Off the Edge of the World is in F# so it's close to a full set. On a bass playing in any key is very little problem.

Edited June 14, 2008 by Nick

[Lazz]

You carry on Lazz I'll leave off posting on threads where you're in teaching mode. Bit like on the Chords thread I've removed the posts so they don't get in your way.

Guitarists and bassists only play in E A or C? Very amusing. As I used to play with a keyboard player I learned to play in Eb, Bb etc very early on (without a capo). In the two gigs I play today we play tunes in C, C#, D, Eb, E, F, G, Abm, A, Bb and Bm - must find one to play in F#* just for the hell of it. No mention of Bb being boring in my post if you'd read it.

Never been fond of Ornette Coleman; Herbie Hancock is a huge favourite of mine - though Watermelon Man not; Kind of Blue is wonderful; Charlie Parker I like too

I'll keep well away in future.

*Actually thinking about it Alistair's Falling Off the Edge of the World is in F# so it's close to a full set. On a bass playing in any key is very little problem.

I used to have Ornette on my shelves back when he hit new and controversial. Latterly for me he became less relevant. Though I am still interested in the live shows. I did attempt exploration of his concept of ‘harmolidics’ and eventually concluded it to be witch-doctor jive that meant basically whatever note he played was alright.

Apart from that intentionally enigmatic nonsense, I still find him to be a very urbane and personable conversational companion as well as an admirably heroic individualist artist . And he wrote some very good tunes. ‘Lonely Woman’ is one, for example, and ‘Turnaround’ is another – co-incidentally also on that old Pat Metheny 80/81 cassette you said you have somewhere. Here he is playing it at a Berklee masterclass: Turnaround.

But whether you like Herbie or Bird or Ornette wasn’t the question: I was actually more interested in your personal conception of blues and whether you truly restricted it to those sad musical situations you described.

And I was certainly not disparaging your own musicianship in my response but merely reciprocating your interjection in what I thought was the same currency. You’re a lucky guy to have the sort of experience you do, and I have always presumed from your posts (and my ears) that you know what you’re doing. Still and all, it is a commonplace of my experience for horn players especially to complain of guitar-based rhythm-section limitations restricting repertoire to those three keys. Yet I have never ever heard before of your Bb complaint being lobbed in the direction of horn-players. It also has to be said though that I personally don’t know any guitar-players with those disabilities. Apart from myself, of course.

One of my other disablities is an allergy to sharp keys.

Personally, I would have junked C# and F# in favour of the more civilised Db and Gb.

Guess I just have a flat brain.

I regret that ‘boring in Bb’ offended you as a misrepresentation: it appealed to me as alliteration.

I did read your post, of course, but in turn wasn’t sure you’d completely read mine.

[Lazz]

I actually lost heart with my intention for a while because it appeared to become too wearily contentious.

Wrote out lots of alternative changes as examples in preparation and then thought 'f*ck this - why am I bothering?'.

Luckily, the estimable Joe Finn has posted a neat chart on his web-site that I can happily pass along.

But first - blue is a colour - it is also used to describe an emotion, a feeling of sadness.

But that ain't it.

Musicologists rattle on about 'blue-notes' as though they are all-defining.

But that ain't it either.

Musically, blues defines a basic form and structure.

The fundamentals are that 12 bar shape and the use of the I IV and V chords as already described.

This beautiful simplicity paradoxically allows incredible variation and sophistication.

But all those varieties are still expressions of that same core harmonic function and movement using I, IV and V.

Joe Finn's chart illustrates some of the rich variety that has developed.

What I suggest, for anyone who is interested, is that you have the cycle of fifths close at hand to help you make sense of the how and why.

Anoter helpful thing to be aware of is the flat-five substitution: - you can substitute any dominant seventh chord with another dominant seventh chord built on a root a flat-fifth away - e.g Db7 will sub for G7 - which means for example that a variant of the II-V-I in C, instead of Dm7-G7-CMaj7, can be Dm7-Db7-CMaj7 - giving lovely smooth step-wise motion as a sweet alternative to the normal fourths and fifths.

So that's two things:

1. Circle of fifths.

2. Flat-five substitution.

Now use them to check out Joe's Blues Substitutions.

Lots to make sense of and steal and borrow.

Progressions are not copyright.

[JHubbard]

Heh...here's an edge I might have in explaining some parts of blues....I'm from Mississippi, where it all started. In fact, Greenville is about 45 minutes away from my house. When someone writes a blues song, there pretty much telling a story in musical context. Listen to the lyrics of most blues songwriters and you'll see that there's almost always an underlying story. Sometimes they're fictional, sometimes they're based on part of the writer's life. I've got a blues song called "There Stands a Girl" that's written from the perspective of an older man watching a young girl throw her life away due to poverty and being an orphan. She turns to prostitution to make money and the old man tries to show her a better way to go about things, but she won't listen. Anyway....the theory behind blues music is so simple...yet so complex. It's because of the freedom the style offers as far as composing goes, thanks to using passing tones. You don't necessarily have to stick to everything that's ordered in the world of music theory to write a blues song or solo. If it's done tastefully, a blues player can throw in notes that may be completely out of key, but they fit because of the "soul" in the music and because they're used as passing tones from note to note. It's hard to explain, but easy to understand. It's also very easy to play blues solos, as they're based on pentatonics...just make sure you're playing with feeling if you ever play in front of a real bluesman or he'll frown upon your music . Watch the movie Crossroads if you've never seen it. It features Steve Vai and it explains blues in a fun way.

[Lazz]

Hi Justin.

That's all very interesting but I was attempting to move away from the notion of 'the blues' as a collection of stylistic devices and edge towards a consideration of 'blues' as an recognised musical form.

Did you take a look at the chart for Blues Substitutions ?

Did you find it useful ?