Writing Bass Over Guitar

[Jules]

Hey,

Whenever I write a song, I tend to write the guitar music first, (comes easier and helps me while writing) and then I'll write the bass in later.

Usually, the guitar would just be playing chords with the odd solo, so it was quite easy to write the bass in. I was extremely lazy most of the time, and if the guitar was playing an A chord, I would just have the bass play an A chord, (occasionaly I would write a long complicated bass line, but not very often)

However, recently, for some unknown reason, I've stepped my game up a bit with the guitar. Now a lot of my songs have numerous sections in different keys etc.

So my question is, is there a guideline to writing bass over guitar? Do the notes have to match? Is there any note that won't go with another note etc.

Sorry if it's a stupid question, I know I tend to have a lot of those, but I don't have many other people to ask and I trust the information I get here.

Thanks in advance.

[Nightwolf]

Playing Bass in a Rock Band by ME

may bee that will help a bit

[Jules]

Playing Bass in a Rock Band by ME

may bee that will help a bit

Thanks, I had forgotten about that article, I've actually read it through a few times, ever since I decided that I wasnted to go for bass over guitar.

Very informative, thanks.

[Jules]

Playing Bass in a Rock Band by ME

may bee that will help a bit

Thanks, I had forgotten about that article, I've actually read it through a few times, ever since I decided that I wasnted to go for bass over guitar.

Very informative, thanks.

[Roflcopter]

I'm a guitarplayer myself, not a bassist - but I do treat them as entirely different animals. Bass comes first in my book, accompanied with a basic drum pattern (this gets replaced in the end with a more 'humanized' or even drummed version (on my padKontrol).

But you have to lay the basic pattern first, drum and bass both, and layer guitar and vox over that, IMO.

[Nick]

Whenever I write a song, I tend to write the guitar music first, (comes easier and helps me while writing) and then I'll write the bass in later.

Usually, the guitar would just be playing chords with the odd solo, so it was quite easy to write the bass in. I was extremely lazy most of the time, and if the guitar was playing an A chord, I would just have the bass play an A chord, (occasionaly I would write a long complicated bass line, but not very often)

Can't see anything wrong or lazy about that. If you JUST play the root notes of chords though it may get a bit boring - apart from certain sorts of tunes where that works. I was playing at the weekend and played "I still haven't found what I'm looking for" by U2 for the first time and that feels to me as if it thrives on having one note bass lines played with drive and following the guitarists rhythm.

Some tunes - let's say Heartbreaker by Led Zeppelin or something similar is written as a guitar / bass riff and that's it.

Most tunes aren't perhaps that straightforward and the bass player has flexibility to play what he wants - WITHIN THE CONSTRAINTS OF FITTING IN WITH THE OTHER BAND MEMBERS. I play quite a lot of Irish music with one band and that tends to be three chord stuff with the traditional bass part being root-fifth root-fifth bass run joining chord to chord then root-fifth etc etc (eg chord sequence two bars of C, two bars of F, two bars of C - play on the bass C G C G | C G C D E| F C F C | F C F E D C etc etc) but there is still a lot of flexibility if I care to. The style of music though is rooted in that steady 1-2 1-2 1-2 1-2 beat bang on the beat and syncopated flowery lines don't fit the style of music.

However, recently, for some unknown reason, I've stepped my game up a bit with the guitar. Now a lot of my songs have numerous sections in different keys etc.

So my question is, is there a guideline to writing bass over guitar? Do the notes have to match? Is there any note that won't go with another note etc.

If you had a prgression that goes C /// Dm /// F /// G /// F/// G/// C//C7 F /// G /// F/// Fm/// C /// Dm / G C you could just play a bass note for each and play four Cs, 4 Ds etc etc Might sound a bit limited though. A second option is that you could play any of the notes of the chord you are playing so perhaps C C E E | D D A A | F F A A | G G B D etc A third option might be that you play root notes of the chords but create runs between the chord changes eg C C D E | D D F E | F A C A | G F D E | etc etc A fourth option might be that you double up the beats in the bar and play up to eight notes rather than four...

For the most part I have always used my ears and listened to the song and usually find something suggests itself in my head - if this has been any use I will give you a few more examples of how I personally approach a tune. I usually find bass lines write themselves from either something in the tune. I had great fun the other year putting a bass part to Donna's song that I liked and have done various things with Alistair over time - some of the tunes he has written have had a fairly obvious bass line or style of bass line and some haven't but hopefully I have added something to his music rather than getting to much in the way - and on some of them the bass part has become a part of the whole piece. Alistair's songs - as all good songs should - work fine without any of the extra bits but I have had a lot of fun adding those bits in so that we have different versions of what he has written.

He wrote a tune called 10 Things I Want to Do before I Die which you'll find somewhere on Songstuff - and I think there is the bass part that I created for that which I'm pleased with. That I worked out in my head and then worked it out on the bass and leanred to play it.

There is a tune called Inescapable Truth that he wrote also and that has a different sort of bass playing on it entirely. There were 6 or 8 repeats of the same chord sequence in the original acoustic version and I added quite a lot of bass fills to it to break it up and give it more variety - on that it was more like playing the bass as a lead instrument.

Another one he wrote is Rise Above and that has a guitar part that I originally shadowed on the bass. Once my son put a drum part on I changed what I played to lock in with the drums - more notes and harder to play but more effective.

I can point you to some links if you are interested. I am a competent bassist and play it live fairly regularly now I am back in to it and am learning all the time.

[Jules]

Thanks a lot for the interesting and relevant information. If you have anything else to add, it's greatly appreciated.

Thanks a lot.

[thelevellers]

Lol, it seems to be the only advice I ever give out, but I personally just look at the chord(s) I'm playing on the guitar, then play around with the same notes for a cool sounding bass riff, then (as I have no band to jam it with) I stick it all into guitar pro (or powertab editor) and see if it works together... This gets around my lack of music theory knowledge, and shows up if I've slipped out of key (usually), so I can fix it. I should add (as I have in at least one other thread) that I do expect that any bass player that I get to play my songs will have a play around and change what I've come up with, I just like to make an effort myself, at least to get the right feel across, and also help me feel I've got a more complete song, especially as I seem to write songs that really rely on the bass line to make it stand out...

I think trial and error are wonderful teachers

[JHubbard]

Hey,

Whenever I write a song, I tend to write the guitar music first, (comes easier and helps me while writing) and then I'll write the bass in later.

Usually, the guitar would just be playing chords with the odd solo, so it was quite easy to write the bass in. I was extremely lazy most of the time, and if the guitar was playing an A chord, I would just have the bass play an A chord, (occasionaly I would write a long complicated bass line, but not very often)

However, recently, for some unknown reason, I've stepped my game up a bit with the guitar. Now a lot of my songs have numerous sections in different keys etc.

So my question is, is there a guideline to writing bass over guitar? Do the notes have to match? Is there any note that won't go with another note etc.

Sorry if it's a stupid question, I know I tend to have a lot of those, but I don't have many other people to ask and I trust the information I get here.

Thanks in advance.

It's not a stupid question at all. It seems like you may not be changing keys, but tonal centers. There's a difference. You can stay in say, C Major, but play a lead over it starting on E, which would be the third scale degree...or phrygian. The theory behind music isn't quite as complicated as many make it out to be...at least basic theory isn't. You can buy a book called Pocket Music Theory at most major bookstores for about $5 and it's got the same information as the book I used in my freshman year in college. If you can get a basic grip on theory, many doors will open for you. Especially when it comes to adding other instruments or solos. You can try musictheory.net for some free info that's pretty comprehensive.

I'm a guitarplayer myself, not a bassist - but I do treat them as entirely different animals. Bass comes first in my book, accompanied with a basic drum pattern (this gets replaced in the end with a more 'humanized' or even drummed version (on my padKontrol).

But you have to lay the basic pattern first, drum and bass both, and layer guitar and vox over that, IMO.

It all depends on personal preference. Most drummers prefer to lay their tracks down after the guitarist. While the guitar part for a song may be unchanging but for the solo, most drummers play fills off the cuff and it's more comfortable to play to backing track than just a click track. I understand what you mean by using a basic pattern though...it's basically the same as guitarists using a click track while in the studio. Most bassists I've met (forgive the generalization) don't seem to have the absolute best sense of timing, so they tend to wait until the drummer has finished his/her tracks. It's all fine to record your own way when you're working alone, just don't expect the same thing when you're working with other people.

[Alistair]

Nick wrote

have done various things with Alistair over time - some of the tunes he has written have had a fairly obvious bass line or style of bass line and some haven't but hopefully I have added something to his music rather than getting to much in the way - and on some of them the bass part has become a part of the whole piece.

I couldn't disagree less! You have added an awful lot which I appreciate greatly.

[Jules]

Alright here's a question.

Right, say I've written a verse. It has the following four chords, played in 1/2 time./

F#m11

E

F#

G#

Now say that plays along, and the bass is playing this: (please don't steal my bass line! - I only wrote it today)

1--------------------|-----------------------|--------------------|--------------------------

2------------3--2---|----9--11--9----------|-----------3--2----|----------------------------

3-----3--5----------|---------------11--9---|---3--5------------|------2--3--0-------------

4--------------------|------------------------|--------------------|--3----------------------

So you got four chords and four bars of bass music.

I think it sound acceptable - is there something wrong with it? I don't see how the bass line relates to the guitar at all. In fact, they were written with each other only vaguely in mind.

This is what I don't understand. I think it sounds alright, but from a technical standpoint, is there something wrong here?

[FinnArild]

A lot of good bass tips here - I thought I'd share a couple of my own that is not so much about the structure, but the spice:

If you have a certain part of "hook" melody in the song, guitar or keys - go up to band 15 or so on your bass and play some real high matching notes on parts of it. I use this trick a lot - sometimes only using the bass as the hook - example: "Lantern waste" - listen to the swell guitar in there between the solos, or listen to when the high pitched bass comes in the "oohs".

Try using the bass as a seperate melody structure - I love to do this and probably do it way too much. Example - "Riding the nightmare" verse part or "Take two" on the "take two" part, the bass plays a different melody accented with cymbals (that was actually the original melody of the song before I did the voice part).

[thelevellers]

I stuck your tab and chords into powertab editor, and it doesn't sound right to me... Are you strumming the chords, or picking? Cause I'm not convinced that the F#m11 will ever sound very great the way I'm using it!! Lol...

I think that maybe changing the bass line a little could help too, the first and third sections (the repeated bits), and the fourth, START with the wrong note for sure, literally just changing those makes an instant improvement to my ears...

As has been mentioned elsewhere, posting stuff on here can help (to a degree) with copy right claims, as it works as a form of publishing, and has that all important date stamp...

Rohan

[Jules]

Hey,

Thanks for the reply. What note did you change it too? Any advice would be great.

I don't know about Powertab Editor, me and the guitarist for my band just play with each other. (He strums the chords btw) and I thought it sounded alright. Well, at the very least nothing seemed to clash.

Also, personally I don't feel that Powertab Editor really works the way it should. I play a lot of stuff in real life that doesn't sound good in there. Even already existing songs with flawless bass/guitar notes sound weird.

Any advice on that first note?

Thanks.

[Jules]

Right, I changed F#m11 simply to F.

Now I just need to tighten up the bass line I think.

[thelevellers]

Yeah, I think I only changed the first note to A# (making it one of the notes in the chord), so changing the chord to F makes the first note work now, however, the others still don't sound quite right... I'll Have a play and see what I can do...

As for powertab editor, things sound funny, but they do sound *right* if they're in key properly, as in it all sounds funny, but not *wrong*... Guitar Pro sounds vastly better (it uses a 'real' sound engine, blatantly NOT real sounding, but good enough to get ideas in order in my head), however it costs money...

EDIT: OK, a quick use of the 'tonality' tool suggests that this is in a weird key - it suggests C#minor, but then the F needs all it's notes 'adjusting'... This is probably why it's hard to get it sounding right for me... If it sounds good live then it may be fine, it's just hard to see that certain bits can ever sound good, as they just leap out as wrong as far as I can see...

Sadly I lost a lot of patience with this kind of thing after the bassast in my last band appeared to be both tone deaf AND rhythm deficient! Apparently he's got better now, but I now give up very quickly with problems that remind me of him... Lol.

[Jules]

Sadly I lost a lot of patience with this kind of thing after the bassast in my last band appeared to be both tone deaf AND rhythm deficient! Apparently he's got better now, but I now give up very quickly with problems that remind me of him... Lol.

lol...cheers.

[LittleJeff]

BASS

GUITAR

your right it's not as easy as it looks.

[thelevellers]

*facepalm*

[SongAndDanceMan]

Right, say I've written a verse. It has the following four chords, played in 1/2 time./

F#m11

E

F#

G#

Now say that plays along, and the bass is playing this: (please don't steal my bass line! - I only wrote it today)

1--------------------|-----------------------|--------------------|--------------------------

2------------3--2---|----9--11--9----------|-----------3--2----|----------------------------

3-----3--5----------|---------------11--9---|---3--5------------|------2--3--0-------------

4--------------------|------------------------|--------------------|--3----------------------

So you got four chords and four bars of bass music.

I think it sound acceptable - is there something wrong with it? I don't see how the bass line relates to the guitar at all. In fact, they were written with each other only vaguely in mind.

This is what I don't understand. I think it sounds alright, but from a technical standpoint, is there something wrong here?

***

If it sounds good then play it - on paper it looks a bit strange in that there are some very discordant things there - it may of course be your intention

The chords that you are playing suggest some variety of an E scale is at the root of what you are doing - major scale of E has E F# G# A B C# D# as notes.

The notes on your tab are C D F E B C# B G# F# C D F E G B C A - so most of the bass notes are outside of the key you seem to be playing in (in bold are the ones that are mostly where I think the key is but i could be wrong), so it either sounds pretty edgy or pretty odd and unresolved. If it's what you want then that's great but it might not be what a bass player might immediately come up with. The last note 'a' against a G# is quite discordant for the last bit of the sequence and leaves it VERY unresolved