Which Chords Should I Use Around This Riff?

[gemmacide]

Hi all, I wonder if you guys can help any...

So I have a riff which Im really liking which is based on an ascending B minor pentatonic scale (actually I think its more of a blues scale but it sounds good either way!) and Im wondering which chords I should be using. Im getting really bogged down in whether it should be used in the chorus or as the intro, and I've laid down a bass line which uses B, G and E, which sounds nice but Im looking to expand on it.

My issue is not really knowing enough music theory yet - do I take this riff to be in the relative minor of the key that I should be writing in (therefore needing to find out which key Im in, then drawing the chords from that), or am I writing in the key of B minor and therefore derive all my chords from that key?

I know many will say I should just go with what sounds good, which is what I do usually when writing songs, but I'm starting to try a mixture of that method and including some theory as well as I think I could save a lot of time when writing if I know the basic rules!

Thanks!

Gem

[gemmacide]

Hey Tune-Smith,

Yeah I realise Im not being too helpful without having anything for people to hear. Good advice though, I've progressed slightly with it and have come up with a little chord progression which Im playing around with, which uses a minor barre chord structure but Im only strumming the 3rd, 4th and 5th string, which is sounding pretty sweet.

Im basically enquiring about the chords I should include - here is my thinking:

My guitar teacher has just taught me how to harmonise the major scale, so for any given key you can work out the Major-minor-minor-Major-Major-minor-diminished chord pattern that you could safely utilise in that key. So my thinking is that my starting riff and chord is in B (the blues scale used for the riff and the first note on the bass/rhythm guitar), so do I take that as my I chord and work the scale around that, or do I use it as my relative minor (Im thinking this because my riff is in B, and Ill most likely write a solo/some kind of hooky extra riff around that) and therefore my root chord will be D, and I will harmonise using that as my starting point?

Does this even make any sense haha? Im halfway through this sort of chord theory with my teacher and racing ahead to try to use it in songs, so I may be barking right up the wrong tree. Sorry if anyone reading this is crosseyed by now

[john]

Hey

Welcome to Songstuff Drop an intro post in the Introductions board when you get a chance.

What Tunesmith said except I would add - use your melody as your guide.

Can you post up your actual melody? it's hard to tell without knowing what notes you use, the order and emphasis. In terms of key it depends on what you view as the tonic of the scale of notes. For example, if you played D major pentatonic, would that sound ok?

Where this gets complicated is where accidentals are included as passing notes in a scale. However if all the melody notes are in B minor pentatonic, it resolves to B then chances are the key is B Minor. If it resolves as D as the tonic then D major is the key. Make sense? If you post up your melody and chords then I could say more definitely.

Cheers

John

[Steve]

Change it to Am. It'll be a lot easier in the long run!

[MikeRobinson]

Good rule of thumb is to try to write a counter-melody to it. Made of single notes against a one-line melody.

Ideally using a keyboard (attached to a computer so you can do the "musical word-processor thing").

Put down the basic riff as notes, try to put the chords out of your head and see what other single lines of notes played alongside of it sound good (or don't sound good...) to you. The lines of counter-melodies of course are also the basis of chords.

The "trick" is that a chord is "a big thing that tends to go splat" anywhere it lands. It's so big and powerful that it pulls the next chord to it, more than the melody or the "riff" does. Pretty soon it's the thousand pound elephant throwing its weight around. But a single note doesn't do that nearly so much. It helps you feel the "tension and release" in your idea because it is so minimal. But pairs of notes are intervals, and intervals are the essence of a chord.

A computer comes in handy here too because you can put the melody on one "track," a proposed counter on a second and another on a third track, and then you can use the mute buttons to listen to different combinations. (The bad ones just stay muted forever.) Listen to: melody, melody + #1, melody + #2, melody + #1 + #2. Maybe just #1 and #2 together. (Do they "clash?")

You don't need to worry so much about the intervals that you know will be "inside" the chord, e.g. the fifth, because those are just meat and potatoes and you can just take those for granted; add 'em later just for the protein and starch. The spice comes from: (1) the "other" intervals, and (2) the interplay of timing between the various parts, as one seems to "anticipate" the other and so-on; and (3) rests... silence.

Think: "would this look great on a lead sheet?"

Sometimes what finally works feels like a surprise. (It also, unfortunately, feels obvious: "what took me so long?")

Edited February 7, 2010 by MikeRobinson

[Nick]

Hey Tune-Smith,

Yeah I realise Im not being too helpful without having anything for people to hear. Good advice though, I've progressed slightly with it and have come up with a little chord progression which Im playing around with, which uses a minor barre chord structure but Im only strumming the 3rd, 4th and 5th string, which is sounding pretty sweet.

Im basically enquiring about the chords I should include - here is my thinking:

My guitar teacher has just taught me how to harmonise the major scale, so for any given key you can work out the Major-minor-minor-Major-Major-minor-diminished chord pattern that you could safely utilise in that key. So my thinking is that my starting riff and chord is in B (the blues scale used for the riff and the first note on the bass/rhythm guitar), so do I take that as my I chord and work the scale around that, or do I use it as my relative minor (Im thinking this because my riff is in B, and Ill most likely write a solo/some kind of hooky extra riff around that) and therefore my root chord will be D, and I will harmonise using that as my starting point?

Does this even make any sense haha? Im halfway through this sort of chord theory with my teacher and racing ahead to try to use it in songs, so I may be barking right up the wrong tree. Sorry if anyone reading this is crosseyed by now

The ones that would most come to mind are first off - Bm D Em F# (either major or minor) - with the F# or F#m one or the other will probably feel 'right'

You might also find that A and G also fit here and there

Bm C#m D Em F#m (or F#) G A Bm

If you know the old Fleetwood Mac song 'Black Magic Woman' - that is based on a pentatonic and goes (in Bm) -

Bm F#m Bm Em (sometimes then moved to Emajor) and then either i) Bm F#m Bm or ii) Bm A G F#m Bm - both fit the melody quite well. That sort of change would give it a blues minory feeling.

A lot of folk and acoustic songs will have the verse harmonised with the minor chords and then move to the connected major key in the chorus or bridge; utilising D G A and Bm and then returning to the minor.

Not sure if that's much help at all.

In fact having reread your first post try playing Bm G E against your melody and then try Bm G Em against it and you'll get quite a different effect and one will probably feel 'right' for your melody. Picking up my guitar and playing the two take my ear and fingers in different directions!

One of the things is that given a melody there are potentially a huge number of different ways to harmonise them. If you ever come across a book called Acoustic Guitar by Eric Roche there is a wonderful section where he takes Twinkle Twinkle Little Star and then harmonises it about 8 different ways starting from the 'right' one that we know and ending very very differently though the melody is still recognisable.

It's difficult without a tune though!

I play with some fiddle players once a week and they are forever turning up with the notes of tunes which they then play to their hearts content. The fun part from my end is finding a working harmony as we go. Sometimes the melody so powerfully moves you to the next chord that it is almost unavoidable to play it - sometimes there are many options each slightly changing the effect. Sometimes of course I cock it up totally but less so than I used to! Keeps me amused anyway.

Edited February 7, 2010 by Nick

[BlackhawkFan]

Others have already addressed this, but I'll try my hand at phrasing it in a meaningful way in the spirit of helping.

Concerning the riff, which are long notes and which are short? Also, what beats do each fall on? This will suggest which chords go where.

I had a bass player once who didn't read music and had never held a bass before in his life. What he had was a deep desire to play and learned the first five frets of the neck. I showed him a lead sheet and told him to play the letters of the chord names as they appeared, 4 beats to a measure in 4/4 while listening to what the drummer was doing. After a while, he began to do little fills and stuff and became a decent player.

[James Anderson]

when i compose a melody i can hear the chords in my head my bigest trouble is until i play the exact inversion of the chord i hear the other inversions sound wrong

i also find my music relies heavily on minor chords and more so on minor 7

[MikeRobinson]

A big thought that comes to my mind right now is that ... when we listen to anything-at-all "on the radio," then we are merely hearing someone's final choices. Certainly not(!) the only ones that could have been made.

When you are composing something that is entirely new, and no matter how you go about actually doing it, one thing that really hits you squarely in the face is that there are, in fact, no "right" answers. There is no judging-committee sitting just off stage that's going to ring a celebratory bell if you "get it right," nor a gong if you "get it wrong," or anything else in-between. You are simply going to wind up making a fairly arbitrary choice.

But here's what's really cool: you can always change your mind. Try something different. See what (else) works. See what you like best. Especially if you've got a computer involved. How many ways can you think of to re-harmonize a tune like, "Merrily We Roll Along?" Google that sometime. And the more interesting the melody is (e.g. a "pentatonic" scale vs. the 3-2-1-2-3-3-3 of "Merrily"), the more possibilities there are to explore. With no "right" answers! (Fair warning: it's addictive. )

Edited May 22, 2012 by MikeRobinson

[uncle808us]

Interesting thread, I use the counter melody method mentioned previously.

[krakadoros]

Hi all, I wonder if you guys can help any...

So I have a riff which Im really liking which is based on an ascending B minor pentatonic scale (actually I think its more of a blues scale but it sounds good either way!) and Im wondering which chords I should be using. Im getting really bogged down in whether it should be used in the chorus or as the intro, and I've laid down a bass line which uses B, G and E, which sounds nice but Im looking to expand on it.

My issue is not really knowing enough music theory yet - do I take this riff to be in the relative minor of the key that I should be writing in (therefore needing to find out which key Im in, then drawing the chords from that), or am I writing in the key of B minor and therefore derive all my chords from that key?

I know many will say I should just go with what sounds good, which is what I do usually when writing songs, but I'm starting to try a mixture of that method and including some theory as well as I think I could save a lot of time when writing if I know the basic rules!

Thanks!

 

  First of all what do you mean B minor pentatonic ? Are you sure it is pentatonic ? (5 tones from one note, to the next?) B C# D# F G H ?. I think you refer to pentaphoneme scale, 5 musical phonemes (notes) regardless of the interval between them. Υοu talk aboute  B  D  E  F#  A   (including E# as passing to give the blues feeling) ?  Then you are in B minor and you can use the three basic chords Bminor E and F# (On Bminor scale the gener of E and F depends on what scale you use. Melodic minor (go up) ? Then you areusing  G# note, which means E major chord, and A# note which mean F major chord. But i think you can also use the 3 chords from Dmajor scale (B minor is the relative minor of D major) : Dmajor Gmajor and Amajor(7).  Looke one by one :B,D,E,F#,A  . B belongs to Bminor, E(+and-), Gmajor.  D belongs to Bminor, Dmajor, Gmajor.  E belongs to E(+and-) , Amajor.  F# belongs to Bminor , F#(+and-),  Dmajor ,   A belongs to F#minor, Dmajor  and Amajor.  If you want more help you can see this site www.arrangemymelody.com

[krakadoros]

i mean http//:www.arrangemymelody.com

Edited December 2, 2013 by krakadoros