What Makes A Song "good" For You?

[john]

Hey

Taste is an interesting subject. One of the many ways we measure the world. What makes a song good for me, might make it terrible for you, however there is common ground. In essence songwriting guidelines are there tp serve as a prompt, a reminder to songwriters of some of those common aspects of like-ability, aesthetic appeal..

So, I'm interested to see what answers you come up with in describing what exactly it is that gets your attention, what keeps it and makes you want to come back for more...

Cheers

John

[Venus]

It's like physical attraction. It just does it for me.

[john]

you can't quantify it? For example you might tend to like athletic red heads with big ears... or shortish men with big brains, lots of creativity, drive etc...

of course we can only speak in general terms, and there is always that unknown or unexpected quality that is hard to put a finger on

[connelly73]

I like a simple song (for a simple guy) For some reason at the moment I'm really into Snow Patrol. I know not everyones cup of tea but its just a few of their album tracks. They are so simple with only two or three chords. I find that the lyrics that keep my attention.

[bluage]

Hey

Taste is an interesting subject. One of the many ways we measure the world. What makes a song good for me, might make it terrible for you, however there is common ground. In essence songwriting guidelines are there tp serve as a prompt, a reminder to songwriters of some of those common aspects of like-ability, aesthetic appeal..

So, I'm interested to see what answers you come up with in describing what exactly it is that gets your attention, what keeps it and makes you want to come back for more...

Cheers

John

Hello, John...

It's almost always been the music that makes a song "good" for me, from the intro to the ending. In fact, when someone asks me to help them recall a favorite song, I usually only recall the melody, because most often the lyrics are an afterthought that I rarely remember, unless they stood out in some unique way, It's only been since I started writing songs a few years ago that I purposely began listening to song lyrics.

It's like, the melody is the words, and if the melody evokes really strong feelings, then and only then do the lyrics come...

bluage

[musicthom]

I thought venus had it right its a physical attraction

and i think it is a very personal thing, again for me it can depend on lots of things, my mood at the time, the situation i am in, there can also be outside influences that can draw me to some songs

like an event or a situation, like a song being there at an event in my life and it seems to attach it's self

i can say without a doubt that my taste in songs has changed over the year, as it has been said on here many imes there are no rules when writing so i guess there are no rules when listening

some gandre i just dont get but hey thats not to say it's not good it just means i don't get it

[ShawnDavid]

A great lyric wows me. Though I dig hooks in the melody, you can have a dry sounding piece, but still knock me out lyrically. Early Dylan is a great example, his harmonica squeaks, his voice can sound like an alley cats howl. Sometime the timing is off and he misses a note.... and there's a charm in that... but what brings me back are those words.

Course I do love a catchy rock number with a steady back beat. When I bought the Beatles Mono and Stereo box set I spent 4 months straight listening to nothing else, and it was just as fresh and exciting as the first time I heard them. But the Beatles were special, they found a way to be both commercially and artistically viable. Great hooks, great lyrics, great production and arrangement.

I also like psychedelic stuff, because it's like listening to painting. The music and lyrics are both colorful illustration that meld to perfection... and often go off on some skewed path that I find appealing (The Red Krayola's "Hurricane Fighter Plane" kind of disturbs me, but I also am drawn to it).

All of this has found its way into my own music.

[MikeRobinson]

As we all know, everyone listens differently, but for me it's always been everything except the lyric that sells a song to me first.....melody, music, arrangement, overall texture, rhytm structure & the vocal performance itself.......just not the lyric.

Agree. A really good piece of music (and they are few...) requires no lyrics at all. If it is "musically outstanding" ... well-composed, well-arranged, well-performed and well-mixed ... they could be reading the dictionary and it would still be a good song. Or, you can have a stellar musical performer who is so good at his or her craft that you simply want to sit back and listen to them singing whatever they might be singing. These, too, are few. The times when the two come together I could count on one hand. (No, I won't list them.)

"When you hear it, you will Know."

Edited February 7, 2010 by MikeRobinson

[john]

Hey

So do you think there is value in working out why something is good? I understand the "You'll know" perspective, but that doesn't overly help with creation of new songs. Don't get me wrong, I ask this question from a discussion perspective... it just seems that if we cannot work out why something ticks all the boxes for us, it does make it a LOT harder to write something that ticks all the boxes.

After all some of you at least will have studied music theory to some extent, and the musicians among us will have learned formally or informally what goes together, the non musicians perhaps similar but with a looser idea based purely on listening...

If for no other reason, being able to answer "What makes it good", although there are many answers as we each have our own measure, certainly means that we can get closer to ticking those boxes when we write something new. Writing is not simply hit and miss, we guide it consciously or unconsciously.

Cheers

John

[Nick]

I practised with an Irish lady as a second guitarist a couple of years ago with the intention of playing some gigs and so the first thing that I did was start to learn her repertoire. One of the things that I noticed was how similar in chord structure a lot of her favourites were - in her particular case a lot of the songs followed a chord structure of I - V - VIm - IV and an even more significant number started with a I - V change rather than a I - IV change or any other.

My wife is very partial to songs that start with a I - IIIm - IV chord structure (but not 'Where Do You Go To My Lovely' thankfully). Often she'll hear a song that she likes and wants to do and it's surprising the number of times that it has that structure.

Perhaps that's one of the things that makes songs work quickly for people, who knows.

Sometimes one just hears something that immediately strikes the ear and I have no idea why. In most cases I then shamelessly nick of for my/or bands repertoire.

Some examples - very different each. 'Karma Chameleon' - 'Caledonia' Dougie Maclean - 'Always With Me' Joe Satriani - 'Strong Winds for Autumn' Bob McNeill - 'Waste The Paint' Jim Hunter

Most of them you won't even have heard of but each hit me the same way

[john]

Hey Nick

From a chord structure perspective I think you are bang on. People do that quite a lot... identifying with particular progressions... couple that with stressed noted in the melody at the right point with the right interval in relation to the chord.

People do like surprise, but they like them a degree of familiarity. Too different and they can be put off, too similar and it sounds like a rip off from another song. In other words they like the new ideas in digestible chunks. If you think about it that makes complete sense... there are very few songs with more than one unique or different idea, most are simple tweaks of an existing idea, even if that is in the arrangement or production rather than the song itself.

Cheers

John

[MikeRobinson]

John, I think that we should always seriously bear in mind the fact that a really good piece of work (in any discipline) rarely gives us any clues as to just how it was made.

To be fair, the vast majority of a song's listening audience never gives the slightest amount of conscious thought as to just why they think that a particular song is "a great song." (That is, if they happen by chance to actually hear one.) If you're stuck in one of those wretched "music for your ..." workplaces, all you really want is a distraction. Lots of Music Row makes their living by selling them exactly that. (And that's valid, I suppose.)

But to folks like us, we're students because we want to repeat that success. That may well be easier said than done.

You can "look upon" a great song, but you're inevitably looking at au fait accompli. You're not looking at the process that led up to it. All of the rough spots have been removed. None of the essential decisions that led to "this particular collection of notes" being arranged in "this particular way" remain visible. (It's not that these things are "out of sight," but merely that they do not call attention to themselves.) So, if we merely look upon "the finished product," the how of it might well be ... and might well remain ... a complete mystery.

But, yes, I think that we can "study it." I think that we can, indeed, prize out the secrets of any "great song." It may well not give us any meaningful clues about how the creative process for that particular song was carried out. Study can point out characteristics of the song that contribute to its success, even characteristics that would never be noticed unless looked-for. It will never tell us just how to repeat them, but maybe that's okay.

Odds are, we'll come up with yet-another tune idea that is "good, but not great." And, maybe, while we're out there on the street corner waiting for The Magic Bus, we ought to consider that perhaps the fellow who wrote "That Amazing Song" started in the very same place. What this person knew how to do, though, was to take a "so-so" idea (they're a dime a dozen...) and consciously transform it into something truly memorable. We come to the same street-corner and, yep, there's still no street-sign there pointing the way. But we still might be able to find our way to "platform nine and three-quarters."

[john]

hey Mike

I didn't intend to give the impression that studying music somehow meant that you could suddenly write hit songs. Apart from anything else many writers are not interested in writing hit songs, they seek only to write good songs, and others again to venting personal emotions in a kind of public psychotherapy... there are all sorts of writers and of purposes for writing. I was only intending to draw attention to the fact that studying what has worked aids our insight regarding our own work, and that that can be of benefit.

There are plenty of formula written songs (not that I advocate that). When we break things down we see mechanisms, we see layers. Can we reproduce a whole that has the same sparkle and allure? No. The work is already made, why would we want to reproduce that? Can we learn from it? Yes, if we are interested to do so.

We do already study this stuff informally... we absorb it in fashion, through exposure, through hearing what people like and what they don't... taste is related to the environment we are in and to the people we share our lives with. I completely agree that we can study, learn, even recreate circumstance or be presented with a similar writing inspiration and still mange to produce something quite forgettable. We are human, each individual. Inspiration can be a fleeting moment never to revisit an individual... who knows?

What I do know is that for me I do try to improve actively. that involves a lot of writing, a lot of experimenting (most of it torturous for those with the misfortune to be within ear shot), a lot of critique and a lot of listening. It doesn't guarantee me anything except time passing. Does it improve me as a songwriter? I hope so. For me at least it gives me something to aim for, because knowing me, without aiming I simply wander aimlessly! lol

I write because I have to, because I love it, but I'm not willing to sit back and see where the ride takes me... if I see something interesting on the horizon I like to find out what it is, and if it's nice I'll stay a while, take some photos and probably move on.

Anyways, I digress (as usual). Basically I more or less agree with what you are saying, and I'm sorry if i gave a misleading impression

Cheers

John

[MikeRobinson]

? ! How could any "negative impression" of what you said possibly be taken? No "thin skins" here!

Oh, heck ... it's all relative. Songs are good. Music is good. I just love to listen to original music. Sometimes the music "sends" me, and sometimes it is an absolute turkey (which is just to say, it doesn't "send" me). But I admire and respect craftsmanship, regardless. And, when a song or an arrangement does transport me into the stratosphere, it is my nature to want to know why and how. It actually thrills me to discover something about the way a thing was made.

Like you, I take pleasure in the act of trying to "go and do likewise" even if by my own judgment I haven't succeeded ... yet. Song writing helps you to be, perhaps in just a tiny way, a participant in the art-form that you enjoy so much. And as for the process, well, "that is why God Himself invented headphones!"

All of the art forms have a "surface layer" and a separate "layer in depth" that is not always obvious. You aren't supposed to have to "understand" the whys and wherefores of the underlying craft in order to encounter the art form ... nor, strictly speaking, must you possess it in order to execute a good piece of work. But it certainly helps. You can definitely recognize the work of a person who is seriously invested in his or her work, regardless of the craft. You can just ... tell.

Edited February 8, 2010 by MikeRobinson

[john]

nah just misunderstood and then beat you around the head with it lol

Onwards and upwards

[imahollywoodstar]

Songs with some meaningful lyrics,......

[blindcommissioner]

i'll add my twopenneth to this!!

for me its emotional feel. that can be from the lyrics, their poetry and how i interpret them. it could be the rythm or melody of a track. the energy the song has but its all down to the feel for me. I like songs from many different genres but thats the common theme for me.

andy