Anyone Try Songframe?

[indieshoegazer]

What is SongFrame?

SongFrame is the song development toolkit designed to provide songwriters and recording musicians an integrated and comprehensive set of tools for writing and refining songs. In addition to serving as an overall notebook for a songwriter's ideas, SongFrame allows the user to construct songs using drag & drop icons representing song structure elements and then fully develop every aspect of the song within these. SongFrame is used before the songwriter ever fires up his or her Digital Audio Workstation (DAW) recording or sequencing software. As the name implies - SongFrame creates the framework, foundation and superstructure of a song prior to the recording, arrangement and production process. Think of SongFrame as a "pre-DAW" or a songwriting front-end to your existing recording or sequencing setup.

http://www.tanageraudioworks.com/Products/SongFrame

looks interesting, was wondering if anyone has tried it.

[FinnArild]

Looks interesting - however - my songwriting workflow in Cubase is so good now I doubt I'll try something else.

[FinnArild]

Now that I have got my UAD 2 card they get all my $ anyway - man - those things are addictive ..

[indieshoegazer]

What? There's no sample library other than some drum loops.

[Jeanie]

This is not something that would ever interest me. How can a song evolve when it's already been put into a box?

Just sayin'

[indieshoegazer]

Put into a box? This software allows for free form composition.

[indieshoegazer]

Those chord progressions aren't sample libraries or loops, they're more like suggestions and can be customized or ignored.

[john]

Hey

I think it looks interesting. Like indie it looks aimed at short cutting the process, but still leaves all the control with the writer. I didn't notice sample libraries either, more like a midi library of standard chord progressions and drum patterns, the latter of which you usually get with a DAW anyway. There are lots of standard chord progressions, and here I think is the true aid, in that it simply shortcuts that element of theory to make it easier for the writer. All useful stuff. A few features looked interesting and a few not so interesting.

I don't know if the drum patterns can be edited after inserting them, that would certainly make it less rigid. I see this as being a step between playing your guitar and singing and a full recording. It doesn't look like it has the versatility to turn out a full, polished song, but that's not the point... it's for creating drafts.

I can see this being a real value add for new songwriters as yet unaware of possibilities and lacking experience, in terms of a short cut... what is not clear is if there is a theoretical back drop of any sort, my guess is no... because then it would also be and educational aid. For more experienced writers I doubt it offers much more than a pad, pencil and a handy recorder... the obvious exception being that the output of the process can be imported into a DAW. Question is, how effective is it? Does it add to the process by adding another iteration or not? Is it in the end useful or wasted time?

I've not used it, but would be interested in exploring it to see it's true value, but it at least looks interesting to me.

Cheers

John

[indieshoegazer]

Hey

I think it looks interesting. Like indie it looks aimed at short cutting the process, but still leaves all the control with the writer. I didn't notice sample libraries either, more like a midi library of standard chord progressions and drum patterns, the latter of which you usually get with a DAW anyway. There are lots of standard chord progressions, and here I think is the true aid, in that it simply shortcuts that element of theory to make it easier for the writer. All useful stuff. A few features looked interesting and a few not so interesting.

I don't know if the drum patterns can be edited after inserting them, that would certainly make it less rigid. I see this as being a step between playing your guitar and singing and a full recording. It doesn't look like it has the versatility to turn out a full, polished song, but that's not the point... it's for creating drafts.

I can see this being a real value add for new songwriters as yet unaware of possibilities and lacking experience, in terms of a short cut... what is not clear is if there is a theoretical back drop of any sort, my guess is no... because then it would also be and educational aid. For more experienced writers I doubt it offers much more than a pad, pencil and a handy recorder... the obvious exception being that the output of the process can be imported into a DAW. Question is, how effective is it? Does it add to the process by adding another iteration or not? Is it in the end useful or wasted time?

I've not used it, but would be interested in exploring it to see it's true value, but it at least looks interesting to me.

Cheers

John

They give you a copy of EZDrummer lite with the software, which I think allows for greater control of drum patterns, possibly editing - not sure, never used. They say other VST and AU's can appear natively in Songframe. Those patterns are just to have a rhythmic frame to do your composition with anyways - they're meant as a rough guide until you export your song to your DAW, where you can put a real rhythm track on it.

The other thing that looks interesting is the Songframe song is exported to the DAW with markers to denote the various 'songbits'. I like how everything - even lyrics - is in one place. I never liked having to keep lyrics and notes in another application or a notebook apart from musical stems.

[musicthom]

I have to say i really struggle with the techy side of things so i don't own a copy of any recording software

[john]

awww

I'm just as happy to talk the older stuff too Tom. Fact is that there are plenty of people who use analog tape/effects/consoles, or who have an older usage of PC software... I myself tend to be in the latter category although I spent years with analog, both studio and home gear. Fact is no matter what way we turn we can easily be confronted by unknowns no matter who we are.

PS "sample" is a term that in the 80s came to mean those dropped in song segments that were complete loops, but that was just the application of the technology, not the technology itself. At that time many synths were FM based. With the introduction of the PC, early PC sound cards used Am and FM synthesis, then eventually synthesis was done using sampled sounds... for example, record each note on a piano (just a single note strike), then assign that sampled sound to be played back when the note is struck by a midi keyboard. It's the same process effectively as using a sampler for playing back a loop except instead of sampling a 4 bar loop it samples individual note strikes.

Those samples were used as a basis for creating instruments, for example you want a realistic sounding violin, then why use Am synthesis or FM when you could use a sampled violin? (traditional musicians feel free to butt in with "why not use a real violin") Record some key notes being played and then trigger them from a keyboard. The same synthesis controls can then be applied to these realistic base sound waves (more or less replacing the sine, saw and triangle with far more complex waveforms). Early forms of this would sample 1 or 2 notes per octave and use time stretching to get the notes in between.

Nowadays sampled instruments are rendered in high detail. MultiGigabyte piano samples are now the norm with each note being sampled in different ways with different types of note strikes, each note being sampled in say 12 ways or more, the individual samples being used together to create single note strikes. True you do still get sample loops but that is not the most common usage for samples.

I guess I'm saying dip into what you feel you can talk about or want to talk about, no harm done lol

Ok, not wanting to hijack a perfectly good topic....

[john]

Hey Tom

I guess there are some nuances in there.

A sample is a snippet of audio, be that a couple of milliseconds or a few bars.

"Samples" tend to refer to smaller snippets used by sound cards to recreate an instrument (though not exclusvely)

"Loops" tend to be used to refer to larger segments such as drum beats, usually of a bar or more.... but technically loops are just longer samples

This tool says it uses Midi and the sounds on your sound card... so exactly how the sound is produced depends on your sound card, could be AM, FM, sample based etc. So strictly speaking this is midi snippet based... You have the ability to add your own audio too.

So, they have beats stored as midi note information. You can select a pre-made beat to use with your fledgeling song, but the idea here is not to create the finished piece, it is as a writing/arrangement aid.

The premise here is that most songwriters are not expert drummers, but they want to get an idea of how their song will hang together as they step towards a final recording. The chord progressions part is a similar concept.. it extends your knowledge, helping with the process of ideas and creation by letting you know that something is possibility... Lets face it, there are a lot of standard chord progressions and the information this tool would provide you could find in any decent music theory book. The difference being that in one case you open a book and read, in the other you use a drop down list to chose different chord sequences to hear them. In both cases you somehow render the chord progression and the song creation process continues. There is little difference between sitting playing chords on a guitar hearing them and thinking "that sequence works" and selecting from a drop down.... it isn't writing the song for you, just letting you audition options.

Anyways, on your question, a lot of terms overlap which doesn't make things easy. In terms of application, it is always harder when you are not sure of the nature of something. Honestly, it's not hard to get your head around... when you try to use the technology it becomes apparent. You are not a midi using musician.... do you understand what midi is?

Cheers

john

[john]

indie,

I have contacted the makers and I will be getting the latest version to review in a couple of weeks. I'll post the review asap.

cheers

john

[john]

......only in very general terms. I've searched for a ground level overview explaination of the technology somewhere, but have yet to come across it. Like you said though, I'm fairly sure that if I ever have the opportunity to sit down & play with a working system someday, it would become understandable quickly.

Thanks again.

Tom

Tom

i had a look at the midi article on Songstuff and you're right there is a bit of a gap, although many points are covered across articles. I'll see what I can do.

Cheers

John

[MikeRobinson]

I like the idea of using computer software as a tool for composition, and I do so. As such, yes, I am interested in a tool that might be "more aware of the over-arching structure of" a song ... and that might therefore usefully assist me at that level.

If we simply look at "a song score," well, we know that the song is composed of phrases and sections and so-on, but a computer program that is perfectly good at scoring (or what have you) might well benefit from having some representation of the "higher" song structure. Sort of like the "outline" feature of, say, Microsoft Word, that can help reorganize a piece of text-writing "structurally."

I don't ask the computer to write for me, but I do like to have a willing galley-slave to clean up the kitchen and to do other rote tasks. Computers are real good for that.

Thanks for the heads-up.

[john]

hey Mike

I'm expecting a review copy any day now.

[MikeRobinson]

Good!

I'd definitely like to put this software through its paces (on my Mac), after I've had a chance to watch the various demos. I definitely like the notion of a "song frame," if they have managed to put together a well-rounded treatment of that concept. Briefly looking at their user manual (and understanding it, as I do, "as a computer programmer"), I am intrigued by what they seem to be trying to do and by how they seem to be trying to do it. "Yes, technically speaking, it is clear that they know what they are about. They are not tyros."

But I would want to kick the tires thoroughly with such a tool. "It's ambitious. Is it solid?" Is it genuinely useful, "to the serious amateur or better?"

They make various references to "a large open database of song-fragments." Also to linking to (online?) rhyming dictionary resources. And chord progressions. Okay, all of these are indeed ways that "a song writer might choose to approach a song," and if the computer can actually do the leg-work (which is sometimes laborious), they might well be onto something good.

Dunno: I have never feared that a digital computer will ever replace me. (Since I make my living by bossing them around all day, I know better.) But when a task can be reduced to well-defined components, yes, the computer can be very helpful. "The perfect digital assistant," if you will.

This is probably the kind of tool that, "the better at this you are, the better it will help you."

We shall see . . . we shall see . . .

Edited February 11, 2010 by MikeRobinson