Song Writing Challenge/competition (Closed)

[JamTimeMusic]

Hey,

I agree with Lazz. Burned works better. I’ve been singing it without the T e.g. Burn... So Burned works better for sure.

Tom, I hope that you are still enjoying this collab as much as me. I see you writing many lyric options so hopefully you aren’t growing despondent. It’s harder to write when we can’t bounce ideas off each other in person but we’ll have to be patient.

Something that strikes me about this song is it seems a little confused, perhaps as you say the tense’s flip flopping . I was critiqued recently on another song on another site and the critique said my piece was too vague in that I stated that “Someone was the special one” but I never specifically said why she was the special one. E.g. You are everything to me. Well why? You have the cutest blue eyes, you smell so sweet when you walk past me, your lips are so soft to touch. I could say all that rather than say she is Pretty. Perhaps we are lacking a clear story? I’m reading what seems like it will be a good story but it confuses me a little when reading it. I’m not sure if the singer has been betrayed, been loved and lost, hating the person or missing the person.

I really here this in a female perspective and oh yes it works very nicely on Piano.

I like where the Middle 8 takes the song. From that middle 8 it appears to me that our singer has been cheated on which works really well with the burned subject.

Are you confused when reading the story? Is it clear what has happened?

I’m gonna keep reading it and thinking of ideas.

Oh and perhaps we should decide on the story line. It will help write it. So shall we say man cheated on woman as ever and then she either left him, he left her, or they made up. Which one or any other alternative floats your boat?

JD

Edited March 21, 2011 by JamTimeMusic

[McnaughtonPark]

Are you confused when reading the story?

I think I might be able to answer a lot of your questions by starting with this. Nope, I'm not confused at all with what the song is about. I have seen how every line I've written fits. I do have a habbit of going too far sometimes however. So, I ask others if it makes sense to them.

Honestly, one aspect I am struggling with is the pre-chorus. I haven't written any lyric with this structure. What is called the pre-chorus, to me, is just the end of the verse section, or A section. I normally write the end of those with a rise to the chorus anyway, so little is the difference in reality that I shouldn't even notice but this time, I'm treating the pre as an entirely different section which gives me the opportunity to use it seperately. In Burned, I'm using it so the singer can say everyting he liked about his failed relationship. Problem I'm having is it's 14 syllables long. Not a lot you can say, but the meaning of the section needs to be clear, and I''ve chosen to have it rhyme. It's a sticky little bit of business.

I'm cool with the chorus, and the verses for the most part are coming together. I agree the M8 tells exactly what the conflict is.

I do a lot of rewrites. Some of my lyrics on Songstuff have five different rewrites in the same post, some have a 32 bar version AABA, along with a VCVCBC version. Needless to say, I search by writing.

I'll rewrite for rhyme and reason, but sometimes just to find a better sounding noun. Bad thing is, that usually changes the whole line, couplet, or verse. I end up with scraps of the original lyric.

One tool I use is time and distance. I'll put it down for a day or two, then come back at it. I'm ready to do that here.

Oh, the story line. Yep, they had a beautiful love, entirely intertwined mind, body and soul. His thoughtless, careless, self centered action completely blew the bottom out of her love for him. All she has now are the loving memories (pre-chorus) and the pain. She is leaving him because she could never love him the same again.

Edited March 22, 2011 by McnaughtonPark

[JamTimeMusic]

Ok,

Having been reading the words this morning the only things that were a little confusing were the Pre Choruses but they are ok. I'm cool with everything you said and now I know the story it all makes sense to me and I can see more clearly.

I've had a play with some lyrics/changes. Let me know what you think:

Just to also comment. Verse 1 and the Middle 8 are spot on. I've made some suggestions for the rest

Verse 2

I believed you and I were made one (I believed you and I were faultless)

I wondered where I stopped and you began

But how in the heat of a moment

Does that end

Pre options/inspiration:

We were (I was)

So happy

Now I’m lost

and empty (Now I’m lost, running empty)

We were

Just pretending

That our love

Was never ending

Time was

We were happy

With our lives

Now its ending

Time was

We were happy

With our lives

Not ordinary

Time was

We were so good

Living life

Best that we could

Time was

We were splendid

Our good nights

Never ended

Chorus - Some new ideas to think about:

Options for the first part:

You were led by desire (I changed this to YOU because it works better with the middle

You held me to the fire

And now I’m burned

I’m burned

You were lead by desire

I fell into the fire

And now I’m burned

Burned

You were lead by desire

You fell into the fire

But now i’m burned

I’m burned

Chorus 2nd part

You led me to the wire

Then drove me even higher (This line works really well but I don't get it

And Now I’m burnt

I’m burnt

You had me by a wire

(You’ve left me on a wire)

(You left me by a wire)

(You’ve pushed me to the wire)

And pulled it even tighter

You say that you still need me

But I cannot believe you

Now I'm burned

I'm burned

Are you are still believing

There’s something you can give me

(There's some way you can heal me)

Now I’m burned

I’m burned

But I'm just pretending

That this is not the ending

Now I'm burned

I'm Burned

JD

Edited March 22, 2011 by JamTimeMusic

[Dee]

Hello

Some great ideas you've both come up with. The melody is definately suited to a woman. With so many re-writes, it would be useful to hear what point you're up to but here's how I interpret it:

In the first verse, she's wondering why he's so distant, what could she have done to bring him back, then in the chorus she realises he was tempted and indeed indulged in the flames of another, which resulted in her getting burned. (Obviously it's always the innocent party who get hurt). So for that - the option where HE was led to the fire and HE fell in would work

2nd verse - now she realises what a b*****d he is, she doesn't want him back, even though he's pleading with her and offering her promises, because he's scarred her - he's the one who played with fire and she's got burned.

I have go back to find the m8 and re-read that but all in all, good story telling (not at all abstract JD ha ha! Just the way I like it).

Hope I've been helpful.

M8 - yes.

Edited March 22, 2011 by Dee

[Lazz]

There is a flip-flop of tense throughout this piece isn't there.

Don't worry about that.

We mix tenses all the time.

It's not graded

I'ts good to see you Lazz. Sorry to hear about all the hardships, but knowing your experience with the verb in question, i won't argue.

At least I escaped.

What is called the pre-chorus, to me, is just the end of the verse section, or A section.

I have exactly the same problems, Tom.

To me, it's merely the second ending in conventional terms.

I have loads of issues around the 'pre-chorus' concept - but later for that - it's the result that counts.

I don't see any story - just a lot of whining.

But, like grammatical consistency, that's not really an absolute requirement to me.

Unless it's a folk ballad or country song - then it seems de rigeur.

.

.

[McnaughtonPark]

I don't see any story - just a lot of whining.

sorry about that, really I am. I hoped the pre-chorus, I know, section would help diffuse that. I wanted the melyric build (I'm free to invent terms you know)to sharply contrast the chorus or refrain section. Some of that, well most of that involves the break in music, the pause, followed by the melody driving back in. I liked how JD set that up and wanted the lyric to complement it. Technically, the verses are where I should have developed the story more.

Here, the lyric is presented more traditionally, well, almost:

Burned

I imagine every time you are silent

You're hiding behind a wall, and I pretend

Somehow if I ask the questions

You'll break down

Time was

I was enough

Everything

You said you loved

I imagined you and I were made of

The finest kind of steel that never bends

Somehow in a heated moment

You break down

Time was

We were happy

True my heart

Drove me crazy

But you were led by desire

Trying to get higher

Now I’m burned

I’m burned

While walking the high wire

You fell into the fire

Now I’m burned

I’m burned

You say that it was meaningless

I say I must mean even less

You still want the love that we’re in

Babe, you’re not the one that’s burnin’

And when I see it in the AABA structure, I begin to like it more. I feel it's easier to construct it this way, then present it like this:

Burned

I imagine every time you are silent

You're hiding behind a wall, and I pretend

Somehow if I ask the questions

You'll break down

Time was

I was enough

Everything

You said you loved

But you were led by desire

Trying to get higher

Now I’m burned

I’m burned

While walking the high wire

You fell into the fire

Now I’m burned

I’m burned

I imagined you and I were made of

The finest kind of steel that never bends

Somehow in a heated moment

You break down

Time was

We were happy

True my heart

Drove me crazy

But you were led by desire

Trying to get higher

Now I’m burned

I’m burned

While walking the high wire

You fell into the fire

Now I’m burned

I’m burned

You say that it was meaningless

I say I must mean even less

You still want the love that we’re in

Babe, you’re not the one that’s burnin’

You were led by desire

Trying to get higher

Now I’m burned

I’m burned

While walking the high wire

You fell into the fire

Now I’m burned

I’m burned

Edited March 23, 2011 by McnaughtonPark

[Lazz]

sorry about that, really I am.

And I am sorry that you are sorry.

Mine was merely a flippant drive-by - observational not judgemental.

Meant to underline the sense that 'story' isn't an essential requirement at all.

Maybe in a ballad form its omission would glare - but this is more of a pop-snapshot, I think.

Not to be viewed as a negative quality.

I'm looking forward to hearing Jim's recording of it.

.

[McnaughtonPark]

OK Jim, here is the lyric. http://dl.dropbox.com/u/13524799/Burnt.wav

Burned

I imagine every time you are silent

You're hiding behind a wall, and I pretend

Somehow if I ask the questions

You'll break down

Time was

I was enough

Everything

You said you loved

But you were led by desire

Trying to get higher

Now Im burned

Im burned

While walking the high wire

You fell into the fire

Now Im burned

Im burned

I imagined you and I were made of

The finest kind of steel that never bends

Somehow in a heated moment

You break down

Time was

We were happy

True my heart

Love is crazy

But you were led by desire

Trying to get higher

Now Im burned

Im burned

While walking the high wire

You fell into the fire

Now Im burned

Im burned

You say that it was meaningless

I say I must mean even less

You still want the love that were in

Babe, youre not the one thats burnin

You were led by desire

Trying to get higher

Now Im burned

Im burned

While walking the high wire

You fell into the fire

Now Im burned

Im burned

Edited March 23, 2011 by McnaughtonPark

[JamTimeMusic]

Good stuff MP,

Because we have had so many lyric revisions as soon as I get a chance I will do a few vocal takes with a few of the lyrics to see how they flow and sound. I've got a few busy days at work but i'll get round to it next week.

JD

[McnaughtonPark]

Sounds good, yea, work sucks.

[McnaughtonPark]

Been thinking...

You were led by desire

Trying to get higher

Now I’m burned

I’m burned

I did everything required

You reached into the fire

Now I’m burned

I’m burned

[Dee]

I like it. I'm looking forward to hearing what you've got so far. In fact I would go as far as to say I'm excited! woo hoo - and it's not even my song!

I would also like to say that:

Abstract works for some

and

Storytelling works for others

A bit of abstract's okay with me. But deep down I'm a storytelling kind of gal

[JamTimeMusic]

Dee being honest do you then feel that the words are more abstract than story telling? Do you think it should be?

I kinda see where MP is taking the lyric at the moment. I haven't been totally sure about some aspects but I want to sing it again to see how the current lyric flows.

My objective for this song as that if it were good enough it would be able to compete against the thousands of other songs being pitched to artists across the world. In my experience a song pitched to another artist needs to have the full package.

So, as this started as a challenging critique process, can you and others kindly comment on the lyric and melody and tell us where you think we can do better.

MP I've got some time Thurs evening so ill try and put together a piano and vocal piece.

JD

[McnaughtonPark]

OK. Can't wait to hear it.

[Dee]

JD, I can't tell you how I think you should do better but I shall offer one or two observations and suggestions, but it would be my point of view only.

I love the bit where it starts:

I imagined you and I were made of

The finest kind of steel that never bends

Somehow in a heated moment

You break down

Instead of "You break down", if it were me, I would consider "you melted" or something to keep within the burning theme. I can see that it's similar to the last line of the 1st verse so you may not want to change it.

I think it's been mentioned before about the changes in tense. I would keep it consistent, but again that's just me.

I like MP's new bit about doing everything that was required.

It's good story telling with a hint of listener/reader interpretation. This might be an obvious thing to point out but I interpret walking the highwire as full on flirting/teetering on the edge of having an affair. It's good, it's not being spelled out exactly for the listener/reader.

As for abstract... Put it this way, if I was offered one of two pieces of art. One by John Constable and the other by Kandinsky, I would choose the Constable. I simply like to be told what's going on, or a least get the gist of it.

Edited March 30, 2011 by Dee

[McnaughtonPark]

JD, this is what I'm going with for your attempt. I'm too close to it to lend the objective eye obviously because I don't see anything hidden or cryptic in it. So, let's hear how it comes off and perhaps I'll hear something I can't see. The word crazy will be difficult to sing against the word happy, but the "a" will bend just a bit in each word and it'll come close. When I'm singing "crazy" my chin is dropping toward my chest quite a bit more than it would normally, just like a crazy person would say the word "crAzee". But, I've been listening to a lot of Southern Rock, Allman Brothers, Lynyrd Skynyrd, April Wine, and such so that may just be me becoming a Red Neck, I don't know.

Anyway, good luck with it.

Burned

I imagined every time you were silent

You were hiding behind a wall, so I'd pretend

Somehow if I asked the questions

You'd break down

Time was

I was enough

Everything

You said you loved

You were led by desire

Trying to get higher

Now I’m burned

I’m burned

I did everything required

You reached into the fire

But I’m burned

I’m burned

I imagined you and I were made of

The finest kind of steel that never bends

Somehow in a heated moment

You break down

Time was

We were happy

True my heart

Love is crazy

You were led by desire

Trying to get higher

Now I’m burned

I’m burned

I did everything required

You reached into the fire

But I’m burned

I’m burned

You say that it was meaningless

I say I must mean even less

You still want the love that we’re in

Babe, you’re not the one that’s burnin’

You were led by desire

Trying to get higher

Now I’m burned

I’m burned

While walking the high wire

You fell into the fire

But I’m burned

I’m burned

[Dee]

Just muttering to myself here... do I mean analogy rather than interpretation?

Whatever the correct term is, I see the story in MP's words.

[McnaughtonPark]

JD, how did this turn out?

[JamTimeMusic]

Hey,

Sorry. I got home late from work that night so didnt get to finish it. I'm doing just piano and vocal at the moment. Will post it up as soon as I have the vocal done.

[McnaughtonPark]

I recently posted a vocal that took me 12 hours to do. Recorded it on my phone and had to reformat it and play around, took forever. So, no biggie, just curios.