Need Advice For Music

[JohnMichaels]

Yep, dead on Retro.

Here's another great T-Swift example...at 2:45 the music dies down with "I got tired of waiting..." this is where the bridge starts. Then at 3:02 she comes back in with the chorus melody, but it's really low-key...I would consider this also to be part of the bridge, since it's so different from her other choruses. Then at 3:19 the last chorus comes in full swing and ends the bridge.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8xg3vE8Ie_E&ob=av2e

[Retrosaurus Rex]

... at 2:45 the music dies down with "I got tired of waiting..." this is where the bridge starts. Then at 3:02 she comes back in with the chorus melody, but it's really low-key...I would consider this also to be part of the bridge, since it's so different from her other choruses.

[Retrosaurus Rex]

Here's a great article about song form and terminology from one of our own SongStuff authors...

[Sakura]

I would disagree (not too vehemently) about considering the return of the chorus melody part of the bridge, but it brings up a good point... arrangement and performance choices can transform a piece that might be very simple lyrically and musically, and create a structure out of that. The best example that pops to mind is One by U2... the same 4 chords, over and over... the melody is very simple... the lyrics in the "chorus" don't repeat, it's almost like a series of verses. The arrangement and dynamics, however, create the impression of the familiar Verse/Chorus/Bridge type of song structure...

So the bridge in 'Love Story' is the part at 2:45? Why would the chorus melody not be part of the bridge?

Edited August 5, 2011 by Sakura

[Retrosaurus Rex]

So the bridge in 'Love Story' is the part at 2:45? Why would the chorus melody not be part of the bridge?

That's something we could argue about... I would say that since there's a distinct bridge, when the chorus melody & lyric returns that it's just the chorus. I prefer to think of each section discretely. However, I certainly acknowledge that arrangement & dynamics can make one section functionally something else, which was the point of the U2 example...

[Sakura]

Oh, ok so then it was just an arrangement choice to make that chorus sound different?

[Retrosaurus Rex]

Oh, ok so then it was just an arrangement choice to make that chorus sound different?

In my opinion, yes...

The way I see it, there are three layers of things that can define structure in a song: the lyrics; the basic music, that is, rhythm, melody & harmony; and finally the performance and arrangement aspects.

Since you said you've been writing lyrics for a while I presume that means you've started to collect some lyrics that work for you, and based on that I further presume that you've started to write lyrics with some identifiable structure, even if you don't yet have the terminology for it. Likewise, the other layers can also define structure independently, and they can mix & match in different ways. I offer this not as the only way to think about things, or even the best way, but I find it useful and hope you can take something from it that you can use.

To give an example, you could sing any of these songs straight thru without accompaniment, or self-accompanied on an instrument, singing at one level, basically a monotone, but keeping the melody and lyrics intact. That would make for a really boring performance, probably, but it could be done. In the case of Taylor Swift's songs, if she were performing solo she would probably still observe the dynamics heard on the recording, so maybe it's better to say it's a performance decision, and the arrangement follows from that. I work with a lot of electronic music where performance and arrangement is not so easily separable, and I tend to think of them as one thing.

Anyway, I felt some additional explanation was in order, obviously, I hope it's helpful.

[Sakura]

You're right, I have some lyrics that actually have a consistent structure, but I haven't tried to sing any of them through with or without an accompanied instrument. I've been trying to find a rhythm in some of my lyrics, and trying to make lyrics for a simple melody, but it seems that I've just hit a wall when I'm sitting down listening to the melody. I've tried playing simple chords on the guitar and piano with a simple rhythm but nothing seems to be working for me...any ideas?

[Retrosaurus Rex]

You're right, I have some lyrics that actually have a consistent structure, but I haven't tried to sing any of them through with or without an accompanied instrument. I've been trying to find a rhythm in some of my lyrics, and trying to make lyrics for a simple melody, but it seems that I've just hit a wall when I'm sitting down listening to the melody. I've tried playing simple chords on the guitar and piano with a simple rhythm but nothing seems to be working for me...any ideas?

A lot of people, including myself, have a hard time starting from a blank page. I have notebook pages full of one- & two-line snippets that have popped into my mind. When I'm stuck I pick one and force myself to write something to go along with it. Same thing with music, a simple rhythm is like a blank page, but a beginning melody, or some little riff can be a seed.

Keep trying to find the rhythm in your words. Maybe you're focusing on the words too much and instead you ought to just think about the rhythm. As that comes together think about the contour of the melody... does the line rise? Fall? Rise then fall? Keep refining. You'll find things you like, and that will lead you the way you need to go.

[Sakura]

On occasion I'll find one or two lines that read well, but I can't seem to figure out why. Is it because of the stress pattern or the number of syllables? I know I'm missing something, I just can't seem to figure out what. :/

[Retrosaurus Rex]

On occasion I'll find one or two lines that read well, but I can't seem to figure out why. Is it because of the stress pattern or the number of syllables? I know I'm missing something, I just can't seem to figure out what. :/

Maybe it would be good to provide an example of something you think works really well, and something that needs fixin'... they don't have to be long examples... a verse of each, maybe...

[Sakura]

Maybe it would be good to provide an example of something you think works really well, and something that needs fixin'... they don't have to be long examples... a verse of each, maybe...

One of the verses that I think reads well is:

Driving down the highway

the radio is on

we used to sing together

but now those days are gone

And from the same lyric, I wrote the chorus, but I'm not quite satisfied with it...The name is "Shades of Gray"

It used to be us against the world

before it all faded away

the world once filled with color

now resigned to shades of gray

[Retrosaurus Rex]

OK, I agree with your assessment of how these read...

One of the verses that I think reads well is:

Driving down the highway

the radio is on

we used to sing together

but now those days are gone

I think this one reads well because natural stress pattern suggests a rhythm (even if you read each couplet as a sentence, without any musical inflection), and also because the on/gone rhyme are stressed syllables themselves, and finally, because there are a lot of good sing-able vowel sounds in this, including the rhyming words. I also note that the idea expressed in these lines has a sense of finality to it, and the natural of the last line compliments that sense. In fact, it might do so almost too well, and you might need to create some tension in the melody to move the song forward to the next section. All in all, this is a finely crafty verse from a technical standpoint.

And from the same lyric, I wrote the chorus, but I'm not quite satisfied with it...The name is "Shades of Gray"

It used to be us against the world

before it all faded away

the world once filled with color

now resigned to shades of gray

By contrast, the first read here does not reveal a natural rhythm. This could actually be a benefit, since it would force you in a different melodic direction for the chorus than the verse, but it does also seem to have some awkward spots that could be smoothed out... here's how I read it (stress in bold...):

It used to be us

against the world

before it all

faded away

the world once filled with color

now resigned to shades of gray

I split up the first two lines because I hear a pause at those points. This somewhat disrupts the "reading" of the line, but I could maybe work with it melodically, so I would reserve judgment for now...

I also notice that most lines begin with an unstressed syllable, and I feel like, in this case, it doesn't help me find the rhythm. Again, this is in contrast to the verse above where the last 3 lines begin with unstressed syllables, but it actually seems to help the rhythm.

Finally, I think there are too many words that aren't working hard enough. I offer the following edits as an example of how I might approach it, but I encourage you to try a few approaches... let imagination & sensitivity be your guide...

"It was us against the world

Then it all faded away

Sunny days filled with color

Are now resigned to shades of gray"

Let me know if I should expand on anything said here...

[Sakura]

OK, I agree with your assessment of how these read...

I think this one reads well because natural stress pattern suggests a rhythm (even if you read each couplet as a sentence, without any musical inflection), and also because the on/gone rhyme are stressed syllables themselves, and finally, because there are a lot of good sing-able vowel sounds in this, including the rhyming words. I also note that the idea expressed in these lines has a sense of finality to it, and the natural of the last line compliments that sense. In fact, it might do so almost too well, and you might need to create some tension in the melody to move the song forward to the next section. All in all, this is a finely crafty verse from a technical standpoint.

As of right now, I have this as the first verse in the lyric; should I move it around or leave it as is?

By contrast, the first read here does not reveal a natural rhythm. This could actually be a benefit, since it would force you in a different melodic direction for the chorus than the verse, but it does also seem to have some awkward spots that could be smoothed out... here's how I read it (stress in bold...):

It used to be us

against the world

before it all

faded away

the world once filled with color

now resigned to shades of gray

I split up the first two lines because I hear a pause at those points. This somewhat disrupts the "reading" of the line, but I could maybe work with it melodically, so I would reserve judgment for now...

I also notice that most lines begin with an unstressed syllable, and I feel like, in this case, it doesn't help me find the rhythm. Again, this is in contrast to the verse above where the last 3 lines begin with unstressed syllables, but it actually seems to help the rhythm.

I've heard of stress patterns before, but how exactly do you tell what the stress pattern of the line is? I try saying it out loud but it seems forced that way...

Finally, I think there are too many words that aren't working hard enough. I offer the following edits as an example of how I might approach it, but I encourage you to try a few approaches... let imagination & sensitivity be your guide...

"It was us against the world

Then it all faded away

Sunny days filled with color

Are now resigned to shades of gray"

Let me know if I should expand on anything said here...

By "not working hard enough" do you mean unnecessary words? And I like the way you're version reads much more, but when I read the second line, it still seems somewhat awkward when I get to "faded away" I don't want to change the last word, but I don't like the way it sounds...

[Retrosaurus Rex]

As of right now, I have this as the first verse in the lyric; should I move it around or leave it as is?

[Sakura]

Too hard to answer this out of the context of the entire lyric. For sure it's important to have a strong opening, so better to post the full lyric in the critique board and pose this specific question...

As of right now, I only have about half the song done, but should I post it anyways or wait and see if I can finish it before posting?

For beginners, exactly... say it out loud. It's important to say it in a way that's not too forced, kind of like natural speech, but emphasizing the stressed syllables. That's what I do anyway, others are certainly invited to share their methods... the point is not necessarily even to say it's "good" or "bad", but to see what the possibilities are. And chances are, if it trips you up when you say it, then it will be hard to sing it as well, unless the melodic phasing makes a significant concession...

I'll try to do that some more then, and see if I can get the hang of it! While I'm working on the musical part of the song, should I stick to simple chords right now, since I'm barely starting?

Exactly. In the original version... "It used to be us against the world"... "used to be" doesn't give you any extra information, but does give you two extra syllables compared to "was". You've already set up the "now/then" opposition, so "was" is not really ambiguous, and the extra syllables of the first version are part of the phrasing problem. When in doubt, shorter is usually better, but don't take it as a hard & fast rule, sometimes the longer version just sounds or feels better in a certain context. Just not this time. The point is, it's good to have lots of ways of saying the same thing, so you can pick the right one for the situation...

I definitely like the shorter version in this context! A lot of the time when I'm writing, when I get to words with more than three syllables it starts to sound forced and awkward, should I try to substitute smaller words in or change how I stress the syllables?

I agree. I like the internal assonance of "...faded.../... shades..." in those lines, but it still doesn't work as well as one would like... maybe it would be possible to make the chorus more generalized, and keep it all in the present tense... to take the edited version...

"One day it's us against the world

One day it all fades away

Sunny days filled with color

Become resigned to shades of gray"

Not sure that's the best way to handle it, or if it works well in context of the song, but again offered as one possibility...

With what I have right now, the first two verses of the lyric are in present tense, and only the chorus was going to be in past tense, kind of like a flashback, but should I try changing it to present tense so it will fit with the rest of the lyric?

[Retrosaurus Rex]

As of right now, I only have about half the song done, but should I post it anyways or wait and see if I can finish it before posting?

I personally prefer to have a draft finished or nearly so before posting, but there are others who are fine posting half-done drafts, so I guess it's whatever works for you. Since the song is half-done, I will interject a couple of thoughts about it...

Driving down the highway

the radio is on

we used to sing together

but now those days are gone

It's a good beginning because it puts you in a time and place, and a state of mind, basically setting the scene for everything to play out afterward. It's a problematic beginning because it gives away a lot of the story, and because you have the now/then opposition in the chorus as well... if you keep going back and forth like that it won't allow any tension to build.

I'll try to do that some more then, and see if I can get the hang of it! While I'm working on the musical part of the song, should I stick to simple chords right now, since I'm barely starting?

Yes, you can always work in more complicated parts later. You should definitely practice your instruments, and challenge yourself in each and every practice session, but when writing, keep it simple... don't let your current inability slow you down.

I definitely like the shorter version in this context! A lot of the time when I'm writing, when I get to words with more than three syllables it starts to sound forced and awkward, should I try to substitute smaller words in or change how I stress the syllables?

It's generally advisable to maintain a conversational style in word choice and phrasing, especially in country music, which is particularly story driven lyrically. As you move into a rock direction some more poetic language becomes acceptable. And of course, there are always some people who can use unusual words and tortured phrasing, but pull it off in a style that seems natural, so in a way, there are no rules, you just have to feel what's right or wrong at a particular time. I'm not sure that answered the question... a shorter answer would be: your best bet is to make it sound natural...

With what I have right now, the first two verses of the lyric are in present tense, and only the chorus was going to be in past tense, kind of like a flashback, but should I try changing it to present tense so it will fit with the rest of the lyric?

The first way is a good way to handle tense, and the flashback idea can work. I think there's a whole thread about how to handle tense, actually... but yeah, I definitely don't think it's necessary to maintain only one tense thru the entire song, as long as the change is handled in a way that isn't confusing...

[Sakura]

I personally prefer to have a draft finished or nearly so before posting, but there are others who are fine posting half-done drafts, so I guess it's whatever works for you. Since the song is half-done, I will interject a couple of thoughts about it...

Driving down the highway

the radio is on

we used to sing together

but now those days are gone

It's a good beginning because it puts you in a time and place, and a state of mind, basically setting the scene for everything to play out afterward. It's a problematic beginning because it gives away a lot of the story, and because you have the now/then opposition in the chorus as well... if you keep going back and forth like that it won't allow any tension to build.

I'm still working on it, and I only have a couple verses left, so maybe I'll try to finish it first. I like the way that verse sets the scene, but I see what you're saying about giving away the story. When I was writing this part, I actually had another idea for the last line; instead of "but now those days are gone" I was thinking of using "but we never finished that song" which refers to one of the later verses, one that I was thinking of making into the bridge. Although I don't know if I will make it the bridge because I still don't have any music for this lyric...Anyways, I kind of prefer the way I wrote in now, but the other way gives away less of the story. What do you think I should do?

Yes, you can always work in more complicated parts later. You should definitely practice your instruments, and challenge yourself in each and every practice session, but when writing, keep it simple... don't let your current inability slow you down.

I'm trying to work on both piano and keyboard, however I'm seriously lacking knowledge and experience on both instruments, and have resorted to looking up basic chords to practice and try to play as the musical part of the song. I'm a bit more proficient with the flute, which I've played for 4 years (well 5 technically, I haven't really practiced this year though...), but I'm not sure how I could use that with my lyrics.

It's generally advisable to maintain a conversational style in word choice and phrasing, especially in country music, which is particularly story driven lyrically. As you move into a rock direction some more poetic language becomes acceptable. And of course, there are always some people who can use unusual words and tortured phrasing, but pull it off in a style that seems natural, so in a way, there are no rules, you just have to feel what's right or wrong at a particular time. I'm not sure that answered the question... a shorter answer would be: your best bet is to make it sound natural...

I know I've already said this, but I've been writing for about 4 years now, but I've never really familiarized myself with specific songwriting terms and classifying methods, and I've been meaning to ask, how exactly do you classify what genre a lyric belongs to? That is, if it has no musical accompaniment and the lyricist hasn't chosen any genre to write for. Does it go off of the way it's written (like rhyme scheme or song structure) or is there some other way to classify the lyrics?

The first way is a good way to handle tense, and the flashback idea can work. I think there's a whole thread about how to handle tense, actually... but yeah, I definitely don't think it's necessary to maintain only one tense thru the entire song, as long as the change is handled in a way that isn't confusing...

I'll search around for that thread then! And I was wondering because I had heard that changing tense can confuse people and interrupt the flow of the lyric, and just generally mess things up. And how could I make the transition obvious but not irritatingly/stupidly so? By the way, thank you for putting up with all these questions, I really appreciate it!

[Retrosaurus Rex]

By the way, thank you for putting up with all these questions, I really appreciate it!

Don't mention it... I've thought about these issues before, but never really put things into words, so it's interesting for me as well. A lot of people would ask a question like your original one, and just let it drop once they got an answer, any answer, especially a great detailed answer like that guy John Michael gave. What happened to that guy, BTW? But I think people would be better served to ask the follow-up questions and think thru the answers, like you're doing. And they're really good questions...

I'm still working on it, and I only have a couple verses left, so maybe I'll try to finish it first. I like the way that verse sets the scene, but I see what you're saying about giving away the story. When I was writing this part, I actually had another idea for the last line; instead of "but now those days are gone" I was thinking of using "but we never finished that song" which refers to one of the later verses, one that I was thinking of making into the bridge. Although I don't know if I will make it the bridge because I still don't have any music for this lyric...Anyways, I kind of prefer the way I wrote in now, but the other way gives away less of the story. What do you think I should do?

I think "we never finished that song" is much superior. It's a less direct way of expressing the same idea, but rather that a sense of finality, I read a sense of tension, or at least unfinished business, so it give verse 1 better potential to avoid the pitfalls discussed previously. Having said that, you don't have to make the final decision now. Finish a draft, and then it will be easier to see where the strengths & weaknesses are.

I'm trying to work on both piano and keyboard, however I'm seriously lacking knowledge and experience on both instruments, and have resorted to looking up basic chords to practice and try to play as the musical part of the song. I'm a bit more proficient with the flute, which I've played for 4 years (well 5 technically, I haven't really practiced this year though...), but I'm not sure how I could use that with my lyrics.

You don't mention singing, but the flute experience might help there, and experience on any instrument translates somewhat to any other, because you're still dealing with notes & rhythm.

I know I've already said this, but I've been writing for about 4 years now, but I've never really familiarized myself with specific songwriting terms and classifying methods, and I've been meaning to ask, how exactly do you classify what genre a lyric belongs to? That is, if it has no musical accompaniment and the lyricist hasn't chosen any genre to write for. Does it go off of the way it's written (like rhyme scheme or song structure) or is there some other way to classify the lyrics?

That's a question for a whole thread of its' own... really it comes down to listening to a lot of stuff and just knowing, and even then you'll sometimes still disagree with people who know just as much as you. And anyway, you can play any song in any style, two examples...

A couple of my friends used to collaborate, one guy wrote a lot of lyrics, the other guy was the piano man. The lyric guy had another friend who was more of a metalhead... think '80's Metallica... anyway, they were all together, and lyric guy says to piano man "You don't want this, it's a metal lyric..." Metalhead looks at it and agrees, "Yeah, this is a total metal lyric! There's no way you could write pop music to this!" Piano man looks at it, starts playing a slow, moody arpeggio, sings the lyric like an Elton John ballad. It worked.

I suppose you've heard "Billie Jean" by Michael Jackson. If not, check it out. One of the baddest R&B dance joints ever, it makes you want to shake it from the first drum hit, and never lets up. On the other hand, Chris Cornell is straight hard rock, he couldn't sing that song could he? Yes he could, as a blues! and it works like a mofo...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kS5C2Dr8jk0&list=FLOY6p69XsSjQed3lj9L7Sww&index=491

So, I don't actually worry too much about genre, unless somebody says they want something particular, then I can think about the characteristics of that style and how to tweak things in the right direction.

I'll search around for that thread then! And I was wondering because I had heard that changing tense can confuse people and interrupt the flow of the lyric, and just generally mess things up. And how could I make the transition obvious but not irritatingly/stupidly so?

Just do it. If it doesn't work, re-write. You're really asking how to play it safe, but you'll learn more by taking chances...

[Sakura]

Don't mention it... I've thought about these issues before, but never really put things into words, so it's interesting for me as well. A lot of people would ask a question like your original one, and just let it drop once they got an answer, any answer, especially a great detailed answer like that guy John Michael gave. What happened to that guy, BTW? But I think people would be better served to ask the follow-up questions and think thru the answers, like you're doing. And they're really good questions...

Glad I could be somewhat helpful then. Yeah I've been working on the suggestions that John gave me and it's really helping! I've gotten a bit farther with the music but I'm a perfectionist so it gives me more problems to deal with! I have a sort of melody to work with but it feels too repetitive to me, like I'm holding to many notes too long. I'm not really sure what happened to him, he just kind of dropped out of this post...wherever you are, hi! I tend to ask a lot of questions especially with this since I've been thinking about it for so long that I have a lot I wanted to ask. And thank you!

I think "we never finished that song" is much superior. It's a less direct way of expressing the same idea, but rather that a sense of finality, I read a sense of tension, or at least unfinished business, so it give verse 1 better potential to avoid the pitfalls discussed previously. Having said that, you don't have to make the final decision now. Finish a draft, and then it will be easier to see where the strengths & weaknesses are.

Now that you mention it, I see what you mean about that line being better for building tension. For now, I'll add it as an alternative and try to decide when I'm done like you said.

You don't mention singing, but the flute experience might help there, and experience on any instrument translates somewhat to any other, because you're still dealing with notes & rhythm.

I don't know if it counts, but I did choir for 2 years (but that was years ago). And flute experience can help with singing?

That's a question for a whole thread of its' own... really it comes down to listening to a lot of stuff and just knowing, and even then you'll sometimes still disagree with people who know just as much as you. And anyway, you can play any song in any style, two examples...

A couple of my friends used to collaborate, one guy wrote a lot of lyrics, the other guy was the piano man. The lyric guy had another friend who was more of a metalhead... think '80's Metallica... anyway, they were all together, and lyric guy says to piano man "You don't want this, it's a metal lyric..." Metalhead looks at it and agrees, "Yeah, this is a total metal lyric! There's no way you could write pop music to this!" Piano man looks at it, starts playing a slow, moody arpeggio, sings the lyric like an Elton John ballad. It worked.

I suppose you've heard "Billie Jean" by Michael Jackson. If not, check it out. One of the baddest R&B dance joints ever, it makes you want to shake it from the first drum hit, and never lets up. On the other hand, Chris Cornell is straight hard rock, he couldn't sing that song could he? Yes he could, as a blues! and it works like a mofo...

So, I don't actually worry too much about genre, unless somebody says they want something particular, then I can think about the characteristics of that style and how to tweak things in the right direction.

I think I'll post it on a new thread then, just to see what everyone has to say about it. I asked because I was wanting to try writing more of a country style song, but I don't know what exactly classifies it as "country" music. So what you're saying is that it all comes down to how you read the song and what you're used to, right?

Nevermind about posting it in a new thread, I just checked the forum and saw that you posted it, so I'll just read that!

Just do it. If it doesn't work, re-write. You're really asking how to play it safe, but you'll learn more by taking chances...

Alrighty then! I like to take chances, but since I don't know much about the technical side of this, then I don't really know where to draw the line.

Edited August 24, 2011 by Sakura