Need Advice For Music

[Retrosaurus Rex]

I don't know if it counts, but I did choir for 2 years (but that was years ago). And flute experience can help with singing?

I'm guessing about that, since my own experience with wind instruments is practically nil, but it seems like it would since both involve breathing techniques & breathing combined with musical expression. It might be something very subtle, tho, rather than something you're really conscious of...

Alrighty then! I like to take chances, but since I don't know much about the technical side of this, then I don't really know where to draw the line.

OK, then, some thoughts about tense... BTW, my memory is failing, the thread I was thinking of actually concerned point-of-view, and is not even very old... Oh well... As with many things, you'll probably never know where the line is until you've found yourself on the wrong side of it a couple of times, so don't be discouraged if it happens. I think you're pretty safe in this case. For one thing, you were talking about having one tense in the verses, and another in the chorus or the bridge. Usually it's not hard to make this work, because the change in music from section to section draws attention to the lyrical change and makes it more understandable. Also, from the verse and chorus presented in this thread it seems like the lyric is in the mode of a dramatic address, that is, the singer is directly addressing a certain person. In this type of lyric you can sometimes switch back & forth with tense and the lyric will remain intelligible at least on an emotional level, even if it's somewhat incoherent intellectually. If the lyric is more of a narrative, then you have to be more careful, because getting the listener involved in the story is key to the emotional connection, and you don't want them getting confused about the progression of events. If the listeners have to start piecing together the elements of the story just to understand what's going on they're going to tune out, and all that'll earn you is a bus pass...

Glad I could be somewhat helpful then. Yeah I've been working on the suggestions that John gave me and it's really helping! I've gotten a bit farther with the music but I'm a perfectionist so it gives me more problems to deal with! I have a sort of melody to work with but it feels too repetitive to me, like I'm holding to many notes too long.

OK, this is kind of a vague description, but I'll throw out some possibilities...

Too repetitive... how long is the main melodic idea compared to the verse? One line? Two lines? Is the rhythmic phrasing and/or melodic contour the same each time, but with different notes? It's OK to base everything around a short phrase, but there has to be some variation, and preferably a completely alternate idea, worked into the mix, just to keep things fresh.

Holding too many notes too long... how do the held notes relate to the underlying chord? Generally (keeping it simple), held notes will be found in the underlying chord. Also, some notes are more stable in relation to the chord than others, and if you're always sticking to more stable tones the melody will lack tension.

This starts getting deeper into music theory, so you might want to do some study in that area as well...

[Sakura]

I'm guessing about that, since my own experience with wind instruments is practically nil, but it seems like it would since both involve breathing techniques & breathing combined with musical expression. It might be something very subtle, tho, rather than something you're really conscious of...

Hmmm...I never thought of it like that, but I guess you're sorta right!

OK, then, some thoughts about tense... BTW, my memory is failing, the thread I was thinking of actually concerned point-of-view, and is not even very old... Oh well... As with many things, you'll probably never know where the line is until you've found yourself on the wrong side of it a couple of times, so don't be discouraged if it happens. I think you're pretty safe in this case. For one thing, you were talking about having one tense in the verses, and another in the chorus or the bridge. Usually it's not hard to make this work, because the change in music from section to section draws attention to the lyrical change and makes it more understandable. Also, from the verse and chorus presented in this thread it seems like the lyric is in the mode of a dramatic address, that is, the singer is directly addressing a certain person. In this type of lyric you can sometimes switch back & forth with tense and the lyric will remain intelligible at least on an emotional level, even if it's somewhat incoherent intellectually. If the lyric is more of a narrative, then you have to be more careful, because getting the listener involved in the story is key to the emotional connection, and you don't want them getting confused about the progression of events. If the listeners have to start piecing together the elements of the story just to understand what's going on they're going to tune out, and all that'll earn you is a bus pass...

Ahh I see! What about changing the tense within the verses? Probably not right? (at least not yet)

OK, this is kind of a vague description, but I'll throw out some possibilities...

Too repetitive... how long is the main melodic idea compared to the verse? One line? Two lines? Is the rhythmic phrasing and/or melodic contour the same each time, but with different notes? It's OK to base everything around a short phrase, but there has to be some variation, and preferably a completely alternate idea, worked into the mix, just to keep things fresh.

Holding too many notes too long... how do the held notes relate to the underlying chord? Generally (keeping it simple), held notes will be found in the underlying chord. Also, some notes are more stable in relation to the chord than others, and if you're always sticking to more stable tones the melody will lack tension.

This starts getting deeper into music theory, so you might want to do some study in that area as well...

Sorry, but what exactly do you mean by 'main melodic idea'? Do you think you can explain that a bit more? (basing things around a short phrase)

Relate to the underlying chord as in, if I'm holding the note long than the chord is being held long too? Yeah I think I'll try to study that a bit more...

[Retrosaurus Rex]

Ahh I see! What about changing the tense within the verses? Probably not right? (at least not yet)

It's a dicier proposition, yes...

Sorry, but what exactly do you mean by 'main melodic idea'? Do you think you can explain that a bit more? (basing things around a short phrase)

Sure... is there a section of the melody that you keep coming back to? Maybe not exactly repeating each time, but something that has a more or less similar rhythm and/or contour. By contour I mean the general "shape" of the melody... starting low, ending high; starting low, working up to a peak then descending... and if you have a section of melody that you keep re-visiting, what else is happening? You could vary the melody, introduce a second unrelated melody, repeat the original melody with different harmony... I hope I haven't wandered away from the original question...

And don't worry about over-complicating things, some of the greatest pieces of music ever written are based around a short-simple phrase.

Relate to the underlying chord as in, if I'm holding the note long than the chord is being held long too? Yeah I think I'll try to study that a bit more...

Not necessarily... it's more a question of how that note sounds in relation to the chord(s) that accompany it, and whether that sound is what the melody needs to be or do at that moment. Does it need some tension to push into the next line, or should it have some resolution? One thing you could do is just sing the melody whilst paying close attention to exactly which notes seem to be the problem. You might find that the held notes are not the problem at all, or you maybe they are, but the solution will become clearer if you see the problem in better focus...

I do encourage you to study some more, but don't fall into the trap of over-intellectualizing (a trap I often fall into myself...).

[Sakura]

Sure... is there a section of the melody that you keep coming back to? Maybe not exactly repeating each time, but something that has a more or less similar rhythm and/or contour. By contour I mean the general "shape" of the melody... starting low, ending high; starting low, working up to a peak then descending... and if you have a section of melody that you keep re-visiting, what else is happening? You could vary the melody, introduce a second unrelated melody, repeat the original melody with different harmony... I hope I haven't wandered away from the original question...

And don't worry about over-complicating things, some of the greatest pieces of music ever written are based around a short-simple phrase.

Nope you answered it perfectly, so thanks! I've repeated similar parts of the melody a couple of times, but I'm not really sure how exactly I can change them...I've tried playing around with the words to see if I can find a different rhythm, but no such luck so far.

Not necessarily... it's more a question of how that note sounds in relation to the chord(s) that accompany it, and whether that sound is what the melody needs to be or do at that moment. Does it need some tension to push into the next line, or should it have some resolution? One thing you could do is just sing the melody whilst paying close attention to exactly which notes seem to be the problem. You might find that the held notes are not the problem at all, or you maybe they are, but the solution will become clearer if you see the problem in better focus...

Oh ok! As for the bridge, does the melody have to be drastically different from the verses, or would I just change the accompanying chords? I don't know if I phrased that quite right...

I do encourage you to study some more, but don't fall into the trap of over-intellectualizing (a trap I often fall into myself...).

Yeah I have to watch out for that too! I like to over-analyze things a lot...

[Joe51]

What a great discussion regarding the creative process. I want to thank both of you for all that typing. My fingers hurt just thinking about it. Great read though. Thank guys.

I really don't know that I could add much. I really just wanted to say thanks, but since I felt to compelled to reply, I will add my perspective on the initial question. I am likely among the least experienced that participate here, but I have been motivated, and have had some small successes.

To qualify my advice, I have only been playing for about a year and a half. Like you, I have notebooks full of what I call songs, but nothing really developed beyond the initial idea. I recently took a couple songs from my notebook, a song written by a friend here at work, and a song by spock, and just jumped in trying to make them sound good. Below is a general outline of how I went about it. (Yours is on my chopping block for the next couple of weeks, Spock. )

I play guitar, so my answer will be geared in that direction. I think John Micheal gave great advice. I always start with a chord progression and rhythm pattern that I am proficient with. The intervals and timing are what's important here. The particular notes mean nothing to me, yet, other than being notes I play very well together. So basically I will start trying to cram the lyrics into one of the progressions I am really good at using a timing and pattern I am comfortable with. This is really just a trial and error method. Obviously, I can decide if I want it to sound bright or dark or how much contrast I want, but really it's just trial and error.

Once I have something pleasing that goes with the verse, I need to focus on the notes I want to use. I have basically found the intervals I want to use and the pattern and timing I want to use them in. The intervals are still subject to change, but the rhythm of the song is set, and the intervals give me a take off point to experiment. Now I'm going to start experimenting in a different direction. Lets try all the same but start with a different note. Lets see which scales I know that have all the notes I am using and change the key a few times. Lets try different scales that would fit and change the key a few times. This sounds like stabbing in the dark, but really I have an idea of these things when I start and that idea has been developing as I worked a rough progression into it. If something sticks with the verse, I know I'm finishing this song. For me, the hard part is over.

Now, I'll start thinking about how to offset the chorus and the bridge. This is a little less than trial and error. Since you have the verse mapped, other parts of the song have limited options (at my skill level anyway). I'll take a look at what scale and key I'm playing in for the verse. This gives me a starting place to think about bridge and chorus. Then it's pointed trial and error. What gives me the sound (emotion) I wanted. To me, this part seems easier. You have defined the theory you want to use during the verse, so this is all about timing and emphasis.

Assuming no road blocks, I can now strum the entire song. Once you can do this, your on the last leg of the race. You have established you're timing, scale, and key. What I'll do next is record my strumming of the song along with half hearted lyrics (i'm a terrible singer) to have something to work with. Taking that recording, I'll record me just going through the scale I used on my guitar against the back drop of the strum and lyrics track. After doing this a few times, some great ideas emerge for melody. The last song I looked at, I did about 6 takes, and kept the best of each of them. After that, it's learning your own song just like you learn one from the radio. Just listen and repeat.

Now that I have two guitar tracks, I'll make a real effort to sing. Likely I'll add a bass track, since I just picked up a bass guitar a few weeks ago. Many will digitally add drums, synth, or effects, but I haven't really advanced into all that, yet.

Once you can strum the entire song on the guitar, you have an outline that will let you take the song anywhere you want. I haven't played with piano or keyboard much, so I'm not sure how well my process would carry over, but I expect it's very similar.

Long story short: Start small to establish timing, scale, and key. Once you have those things, use what theory you know and google to keep it moving.

Thanks again guys. I expect to read this thread a few more times.

[JohnMichaels]

It sounds like you've got a solid process in the works there Joe!

It's good that you're recording everything, I've found that that can really help solidify the song and expand your creative efforts.

I know you said you don't feel like you're ready to add drums to your recordings, but have you experimented with drum loops? Writing to a drum track can really help tie your rhythm and overall sound together, and with drum loops it's no problem to throw in a basic beat even if you're not a drummer.

This site has a FANTASTIC library of free samples - almost 30,000 of them. Some of them are exclusively drum samples and loops but most of them have other stuff mixed in that you can experiment with in your recordings.

http://www.musicradar.com/news/tech/sampleradar-13154-free-sample-downloads-217833/4

[Joe51]

I haven't really experimented at all. I realize there would be great value, but I have yet to seriously approach timing issues in my playing. I may be getting the cart before the horse, but that seems to be a recurring theme for me. I do intend to really focus on this, but since I don't often play with other musicians, it hasn't been an issue that has forced my hand, yet. I found it fairly easy to keep time with myself. . lol

Since you were kind enough to do the research for me, I won't be able to resist tinkering this weekend, so I appreciate the link. I will undoubtedly make use of it.

[JohnMichaels]

I haven't really experimented at all. I realize there would be great value, but I have yet to seriously approach timing issues in my playing. I may be getting the cart before the horse, but that seems to be a recurring theme for me. I do intend to really focus on this, but since I don't often play with other musicians, it hasn't been an issue that has forced my hand, yet. I found it fairly easy to keep time with myself. . lol

Since you were kind enough to do the research for me, I won't be able to resist tinkering this weekend, so I appreciate the link. I will undoubtedly make use of it.

Hey no problem! I definitely understand where you're coming from with the timing issues, playing to a metronome can be rough at first. A great way to get better actually is to just set up some drum loops and play along with those! It's a lot more fun then 'Ping, click, click, click'

Let me know how it goes if you get a chance to mess around with those samples!

[Sakura]

Hi Joe welcome to the thread! Experience-wise, it sounds like you've got more than I do, since I haven't been able to practice regularly for a while now. I'm glad the thread can be helpful to you, I tend to ask a lot of questions so I never know if it's just my way of thinking or if it's actually a decent question! With the advice you provided, I think the hardest one for me would definitely be timing; I'm absolute rubbish at that, even with a metronome. Which brings me to what John mentioned: I definitely agree that playing along to drums would be loads better than playing with a repetitive metronome!

In regards to instrumental experience, I gotta say: I'm loads better with keyboard than guitar! Since you mentioned carrying the process over to keyboard, I think I'll give it a go, then try to let you know what it's like. Sorry in advance if I reply late; school is a major obstacle to work around right now!

[MikeRobinson]

If your "chops" are "sorta so-so, at best" (as mine certainly are), you can also use your computer as a sort of musical word-processor. Programs like GarageBand (just for example) have a "piano-roll display" in which you can put notes down as lines of various lengths on "a wide sheet of paper" (the electronic player piano roll). The vertical position is the note; the length is the duration. (Believe it or not, composers have written music by punching holes in real piano-rolls...)

And it works. Y'know, I don't think anyone suddenly became a fantastic perfect typist when the computer came along, but now you never see a tpyo anywhere. No one makes spelin errors, either, because the computer catches all the misteaks and you can fix tehm before anyone seez themm. The computer not only simplifies the process of writing, but it significantly adds value to the process.

So now, the computer has handed you the ability to construct a piece of music, to build it up, and to always be able to hear it being played perfectly, every single time. You can build a song that way, and maybe someday hand it over to a live band of players who can add their own jazzy interpretation to what you've written. (All creativity involves collaboration, I think ...)

So, now, what can you do with it? Well, here are a couple of not-quite-intuitive observations:

• The human brain is very attentive to patterns, and therefore to repetition as well as contrast. We like to hear things repeated. We like to hear things repeated in a slightly different way. We like to hear contrasting sections which seem to be related to what we've heard recently.
• The intervals between notes (that is to say, the "gaps") are really just as important, perhaps more so, than the notes themselves. So, we pick up on the fact that the intervals between notes are being repeated, not just the actual notes. We also pick up on rhythm. And, never forget the musical value of silence.
• This fondness for repetition and structure applies not only to the song as a whole ("bridge", "chorus" ...), but also to the phrases of music in the song itself. Visually, you can actually see that pattern on the piano-roll display.

Another very interesting tidbit, found long ago by guys like Bach and Brahms, is that we recognize (and enjoy) purely mathematical tricks, like: retrograde ("rearranging a line of notes backwards"); inversion ("playing a line of notes upside-down"); or retrograde inversion ("both"). Our ears somehow pick up on the pattern even if we can't immediately put our finger on it. Some music-writing programs have macros and things to help you try out things like this. Cutting and pasting, rearranging things almost at random, can also make musical surprises. An honest-to-goodness "typo" can take a song in an unexpected direction. (So: the file can be of unlimited size, and the "Delete" key is not your friend.)

What's so much fun to me about this (and fair warning, I'm a computer geek by trade...) is that it busts you right out of the confines of your music-lessons (or lack thereof). You can literally put anything together and play it and .... ... well, it does take a little patience. But the limitation of what your head can persuade your hands to do is now gone. (Just as the word-processor put "professional typists" right out of business.)

Now, a postscript on what I said about building something up. You start small and simple and you add to it, religiously keeping every single draft without saving-over anything. You can experiment. Sometimes what you get is and sometimes you get a "clam." But you can just keep approaching it from different ways and the computer is doing a lot of the dirty-work for you. Get the melody down, maybe. A chord progression. Just a sketch at first, then (having carefully saved it and brought out another working copy) you start adding here and there. Maybe it goes into the "Crumpled-Up Pieces Of Paper" folder, never to be actually discarded, or maybe it becomes the next version of something. You just never know where these things may lead. But it can take you places you can't go with just your own two hands.

Edited September 13, 2011 by MikeRobinson

[Joe51]

@ Sakura: Don't worry about being late. Education is more important than anything else you're working on. With out it, I wouldn't be able to afford any gear.

All questions are decent. Some answers are not, but I haven't seen that around songstuff. These guys do a fantastic job!

Mike, You're bullet points there are very insightful. I think we all know this, but don't realize what we know, which makes it hard to use. In my limited experience, you're absolutely right about software letting you break out. As everyone does, after learning the basics, I started tinkering and trying to come up with easy repetitive songs. Taking these same songs and layering them with other ideas can really be an eye opener. In a way, it becomes clear that nothing overly complicated is going on here. For all the time we spend studying music, it really does come down to building and releasing tension and the different ways to do that. When I look at the songs I like to play, I no longer see good or bad. It's more like developed or rough draft. Eventually you realize, most popular music is very simple in form. It's just layered to the point where performing the song through a single instrument sounds weak or off somehow.

I don't know garage band. I've been using audacity. There are several others, but so far all I have tried have been inferior to audacity, which has its own problems, but the vst handling in the beta version is great.

I haven't got try your website, yet, John. I'm suffering from chronic broken string syndrum. . I should have 10 sets in the mail tomorrow though, so maybe by the weekend, I'll get a chance to play.

[Sakura]

So now, the computer has handed you the ability to construct a piece of music, to build it up, and to always be able to hear it being played perfectly, every single time. You can build a song that way, and maybe someday hand it over to a live band of players who can add their own jazzy interpretation to what you've written. (All creativity involves collaboration, I think ...)

So, now, what can you do with it? Well, here are a couple of not-quite-intuitive observations:

• The human brain is very attentive to patterns, and therefore to repetition as well as contrast. We like to hear things repeated. We like to hear things repeated in a slightly different way. We like to hear contrasting sections which seem to be related to what we've heard recently.
• The intervals between notes (that is to say, the "gaps") are really just as important, perhaps more so, than the notes themselves. So, we pick up on the fact that the intervals between notes are being repeated, not just the actual notes. We also pick up on rhythm. And, never forget the musical value of silence.
• This fondness for repetition and structure applies not only to the song as a whole ("bridge", "chorus" ...), but also to the phrases of music in the song itself. Visually, you can actually see that pattern on the piano-roll display.

Another very interesting tidbit, found long ago by guys like Bach and Brahms, is that we recognize (and enjoy) purely mathematical tricks, like: retrograde ("rearranging a line of notes backwards"); inversion ("playing a line of notes upside-down"); or retrograde inversion ("both"). Our ears somehow pick up on the pattern even if we can't immediately put our finger on it. Some music-writing programs have macros and things to help you try out things like this. Cutting and pasting, rearranging things almost at random, can also make musical surprises. An honest-to-goodness "typo" can take a song in an unexpected direction. (So: the file can be of unlimited size, and the "Delete" key is not your friend.)

What's so much fun to me about this (and fair warning, I'm a computer geek by trade...) is that it busts you right out of the confines of your music-lessons (or lack thereof). You can literally put anything together and play it and .... ... well, it does take a little patience. But the limitation of what your head can persuade your hands to do is now gone. (Just as the word-processor put "professional typists" right out of business.)

Now, a postscript on what I said about building something up. You start small and simple and you add to it, religiously keeping every single draft without saving-over anything. You can experiment. Sometimes what you get is and sometimes you get a "clam." But you can just keep approaching it from different ways and the computer is doing a lot of the dirty-work for you. Get the melody down, maybe. A chord progression. Just a sketch at first, then (having carefully saved it and brought out another working copy) you start adding here and there. Maybe it goes into the "Crumpled-Up Pieces Of Paper" folder, never to be actually discarded, or maybe it becomes the next version of something. You just never know where these things may lead. But it can take you places you can't go with just your own two hands.

I definitely see the appeal in doing the music on the computer, but I'm embarrassed to say that I'm am less than capable of figuring how to work those kinds of programs. (then again I've only tried one so far, so maybe just that one was complicated...) Now that you pointed it out, I can really see how important the bits of silences are in the music, especially when I'm strumming a guitar!

That tidbit about Bach and Brahms is really interesting, I never realized that there was actually a name for those kinds of tricks; I guess you learn something new everyday! (I'm pretty sure music is the only place where typos are your friends!)

In regards to the programs taking away the limitations of your skills, I think you still need a bit of an understanding of what exactly goes well though, because I remember when I was 10 and playing with my dad's music software and no matter what I did, I could never get it to sound like it did in my head.

@John:

Yeah it's just frustrating that I have another thing to work around now :/

Songstuff is definitely filled with people who always give great answers! I've yet to see anyone give an answer that is unhelpful in any way!

That way of seeing things as developed or a rough draft is a fantastic way of thinking, I think I'll try to see things more that way, I think it would make me more open to opportunities.

By the way John, I love your site www.writesongstoday.com! I found it super helpful!

Edited September 20, 2011 by Sakura

[Joe51]

I definitely see the appeal in doing the music on the computer, but I'm embarrassed to say that I'm am less than capable of figuring how to work those kinds of programs. (then again I've only tried one so far, so maybe just that one was complicated...)

I use Audacity which is a fairly straight forward program made for armatures. Also free, which is always a consideration. .

The most difficult part is figuring out how to record sound. My acoustic has a preamp, so I hook it directly to the line in on my PC. What I get is far less than the quality I want, but I can get something to work with. I will usually add a clean amp effect to help cover the white noise I always seem to get. Again, not great quality, but will suffice for my purposes of learning to mix, eq, ect. I actually plug my base into a little karaoke machine that serves as the pre and rigged its output to the line in on my PC. Mostly just so I can hear it while I record, but the bass actually does much better than the guitar... Not really sure why. Simpler signal maybe... idk.

If you're working with equipment that cannot plug to your line in, you may consider a usb mic for recording purposes. They are fairly inexpensive. I haven't used one since I use the karaoke machine to process the mic signal, but from what I've heard, they are probably a better setup than what I am using.

[Retrosaurus Rex]

I've been on vacation, it's good to come back and see that I have some catching up to do...

Joe51 actually describes a really good method whereby a beginner can get decent results fast. I think a big part of its' benefit is that there is an element of planning built in, the process is broken down into bite-size pieces which can be tackled in order. It gives you small goals to focus on, minimizing your limitations and allowing you to get the most from your present strengths. Kudos for the breakdown. As far as applying the method to keyboard, I think there's possibly an even bigger advantage, at least if you have a MIDI keyboard & some type of sequencer, as you can play a lead line, chords, a bass line, and even a drum kit piece-by-piece, in separate passes, and build up a whole demo that way. Even on a standard piano you should be able to bang out some chords & riffs guitar-strummer style to get started. Plus, it's easier to see how chords and scales relate on the keyboard than it is on the fretboard.

I myself actually use some methods rather like what Mike outlines, exactly to get results that are beyond my playing ability. Speaking of composers tools, there's some good info here: http://solomonsmusic.net/theory.htm, under the heading Traditional Variation Techniques of Composers & Improvisors. I link to the main page in case you're interested, but there's not much, if any, basic, theory... it mostly pretty advanced, geek-arific stuff.

+1 for Audacity because it's free. I personally need to work with audio & MIDI in the same program, which limits Audacity for me, as it only does audio. You can download a free demo of Reaper, if you need the expanded functions. I don't know if Garage band has a free demo...

A couple of other good programs in a different vein are Band in a Box, tho it's not cheap... and Onyx Arranger (link to free demo). I like Onyx because you can abuse the settings to get interesting creative results, and it's easier to mix diverse styles than in BiaB.

All of these programs have significant learning curves, except for Audacity...

[Retrosaurus Rex]

One more thing... you guys have to get your timing together, it's mandatory! Drum loops are actually very helpful in this, as you can try "your thing" against different loops in different styles and that have different feels. Of course, you have to be able to feel the basic pulse, and this is where dedicated study with a metronome is valuable...

[Joe51]

Appreciate the advice Retro!

[Sakura]

I've actually seen a usb mic and been tempted to buy it, but I think I'll put that off for a while until I improve more. You know what, I think I will try Audacity, so thanks Joe!

[Joe51]

No problem. The beta version crashes often when using the mixing board, but the last full version doesn't handle vst as well... just fyi.

I use the beta so I can use some vst amps that don't work with the last full version. Audacity does a good job of not losing data when it crashes, so I just deal with the mixer problem.

[AnthonyCeseri]

Yes, that's right.

Great point on singing the lyrics the way you would say them. That concept has been HUGE for me in my own writing...

[vicchmill]

I use a rhymer to create texts and poetry, but I did not get put them to music