The Art Of Giving Critique

[john]

Hi

I was reading a song review topic that had sparked a debate regarding approach to critique. I could see elements of worth in the various comments, but often meaning is lost in quick language, and intent is lost with typing.

Instead of filling up that topic with a possible argument I want to break out that topic, and it's approach to see if we can all learn something about giving critique...

For me it is a question of balance. We all have our own opinions and choose just how tactfully we convey the points we would make and the suggestions that can flow from it.

Not that I advocate bluntness, nor indeed following this individual, but Simon Cowell is well known for bluntly telling people they suck, or their song sucks or their voice etc. and it does have it's place... within an industry of people who want to be professionals or who want to be perceived as a professional.

Not everyone does want that. Some want to pursue a purely artistic path, and all shades in between.

So here is the dilema.

You click on my song link and listen and you don't like what you hear.

Do you say that, say something throw away, or not reply?

Why?

Do you clearly explain your opinion and how you reached it?

Do you offer constructive, thought out, positive suggestions?

If not, why not?

Interestingly at this point I have not told you what I want from getting critique, nor my goals for my music.

Also worth noting are that there are different expectations for different genres. Less commercial genres for example tend to seek less "Perfection" as it is portayed in the pop charts so much so that producers use pitch correction to the max....

I wonder what they would have done with Bob Dylan! Okay, different era, but there is a prime example of a gifted writer who sucked at singing technically, but fans loved the character in his voice (something hard to find in pop charts!). Luckily he played in a genre that prized songs above musicality and character over perfect tuning and volume.

We aim to help each other with our own insight. Opinions I can get anywhere,

So.... what's your perspective?

Cheers

John

[ClaireCreekProject]

I hate to advocate it, but an "ignore button" is often used when individuals can't seem to be civil. I've been treated with amazing respect on this site, but there are a few obvious friction spots that could benefit the ability to opt out.

Hope this is of assistance,

Rick Glynn

[ABeautifulVirus]

i think we all are capable of adhering to a parlance that upholds a certain degree of artistic respect...meaning we know how to compliment and we know how to afford 'constructive criticism' - but it's imperative to value ART at all levels of interpretation. Marcel Duchamp featured urinals as sculpture. that kinda kickstarted the whole Dada movement. when it comes to criticism, we really also have to remember it's only one individual's point of view...and it's not the end of the world if someone doesn't like it, or doesn't like the recording technique or technical prowess. it takes a lot of balls to be creative; never cower to another's opinion. if people are being outright rude...then i think it's acceptable to tell them politely to go f*ck themselves and put them on 'ignore'. a lot of music is written for a status quo...and it's safe in there, like a harbor for a ship. but that is not what ships are made for. we should respect forays into more uncharted waters, and restrict comments to possible technical improvements if the song is not really something you would play in your car stereo. suffice to say i'm pretty new here and have not noticed any threads that are impolite and most comments are very helpful even though i know a lot of what i do is not really mainstream. but i'm not here to impress anyone. just enjoy feedback on demos. anyway, like Kurt Cobain said, i'd rather be hated for what i am than loved for what i am not. i must say that this is one of the better forums around; and the peeps here are pretty cool.

Edited July 11, 2012 by ABeautifulVirus

[john]

hi rick

Thanks for replying. It might be worth considering.

I know most sites that host critique boards, no matter the art form, can suffer from this mismatch between different needs and different perspective. I mean we just want pats on the back.. That can build a false confidence and perhaps individuals sinking thousands into a project... if only someone had told them etc. I get both sides of the argument. Cruel to be kind and all that.

For me at least I try and balance directness with taking time over language. Still no matter how careful I have tried to be I have upset people with critique comments despite suggestions for improvement etc. It is not always straightforward what could upset someone.

knowing goals and expectations help focus attention for critique.

If someone wants to write a song for his girlfriend I see no value for that person to be told their voice is terrible... it achieves nothing. worse it could stop them making that romantic gesture which singer or not his girlfriend would have loved because it is him singing his song to her.

if they want to front a band then genre specific a not great voice might get by just fine.

But if they want to be a professional singer or sing some big vocal numbers they need to know their weaknesses. Hell the industry can rip them apart. Better to know and have a chance to consider options.

At that point I think it is adviseable to make the point in away it will be digested and either acted on or ignored.

One thing is for sure where music is concerned is that it is dominated by opinions and egos. Some are more fragile than others.

One last thing is that many many bands have been turned down many times and still had successful careers. Even Simon Cowell has told bands they suck or a singer they can't sing only for that artist to become successful. Even his own back yard, with all his experience can be wrong.... or was he? lol On each occasion his comments gave them the strength to grow, play to strengths, work on weaknesses in performance or image or their songs.They reinvent based on his respected opinion. Not that I am fan of his approach I still often agree with his point, just not how he put it! lol

[john]

I totally agree it is just one opinion.

In an ideal world all of us would be confident enough to tell offensive people to piss off and to take comments and roll with them. Saddly that is not always the case.

I know we have an ignore button but I think it only applies to the private messages and profile comments. I will need to check that! Hmmm. Who to ignore....

I am glad you think our community is one of the better ones.. we work hard to try and keep Songstuff a friendly and fair community. lots of skilled members and nice people but I am biased lol

[ClaireCreekProject]

lol, didn't know there was an "ignor button" (you're safe John)

babble, babble.... assuming that I know how this thread came about, I have to admit that when the (hmmm) originator of this issue actually

came back and dug his heels in a second time, I gained a little respect for his genuiness (I couldn't have come back and defended statements like that) I guess at the end of the day peer pressure will more than likely even the playing field as is the case in life. Would I be put on time out if I produced the single worst arrangement ever heard by mankind so I can study that form of rejection.... and of course write a song about it?

[McnaughtonPark]

Tact and manners.

If you're going to use a subtle hint with me, tape it to the end of a stick and hit me with it....hard....nicely.

[nashvillecal]

I guess it all depends on the stage of songwriting your at, if your laying down 6 hundred or more on a demo, you'd better hope for a brutaly honest critique

sugar coating does no good at that stage, Sometimes it takes weeks of rewriting to nail it and many critiques to finally get it right.

The thicker the skin the better if your chasing major pitches.

Edited July 12, 2012 by nashvillecal

[snabbu]

Hi John

Given that it can take me an hour to do a critique.

In the following cases I ignore posts.

Posters who have had reviews on previous songs and have not taken those critiques on board in the current work.

I play a song for 30 seconds and if there is nothing there in that 30 seconds I move on.

Posters who have no clue as to melody or song construction.

Genres which leave me cold like rap whith a capital "C"

If I have nothing to say that has not already been said by others.

I care not for the commercial merit of the work if the poster makes it clear they don't either. So I am more likely to critique if the poster says what it is they are trying to achieve. For example I would happily critique a lullaby written to be sung to someone's baby if the poster had said that's what it is. Other wise I have to have my own view and that view point may not be correct.

I am more likely to put effort in to someone who is improving.

I feel the constant one line nice " tune man" (when it patently isn't)critiques worst than useless. It kind of gets like the equivalent of mutual back scratching or worse.

I say exactly what I think when I critique, there really is no point in guiding the Lilly. Because if something is good it is, If it is not then improvements should be made.

Also it is only my opinion anyway, and if an artist or writer can't take rejection, then he needs to take up macramé or something.

I really try to seperate the song critique from the production performance side of things.

Cheers

Gary

[snabbu]

...had a quick thought & figured I'd share. What if we took the existing "critique" section, retitled it "song & recording review", then divided it into 2 sub-catagories:

1. seeking assistance/improvement - this can function as useful vehicle by which members can obtain outside perspectives, specific suggestions, useful ideas & general food-for-thought to aid in the process of moving their songs forward.
   
2. completed works - If members feel that we need an appropriate place for "I like it, I don't!"...... "great song"...."not my type of music", this section could fill that need. This section would not have a requirement for reviewing the material of others.....simply a place to post what you've done & accept whatever comments may come your way.
   

You could structure this with a reverse incentive for posters. Make the "seeking assistance" section visible to all, as the critique section is currently. But make the "completed works" section visible to members-only so it limits the audience for peo ple simply wanting as many plays as they can get for a track. You could also structure this section so that it doesn't allow the uploading of tracks.....taking up your valuable server space. Links-only! When some members try to end-run the new system by posting their finished works in the more visible "seeking assistance" section...without reviewing the works of others, site personnel can simply move the posts over into the proper section.

Simple enough.....a poster chooses not to assist anyone else out with their material as requested, doesn't ask for anything specific for feedback & really doesn't seem very interested in getting detailed feedback on their material....we move the post to the other section & notify the posted why we moved it.

Thoughts....opinions anyone?

Of-value, beneficial, waste of time, more trouble than it would be worth?

Tom

Hi Tom

I think there is some merit in this. The reason being there are several aspects here to a work.

There is the song itself. There is the arrangement of the song. There is the performance of the work and then the production.

So in your seeking improvement section. Which I call "work tapes" which I guess shows my 4 trac roots. The old Tascam four track cassette sound on sound and fussy tapes. Any way whatever you call it. The comments should be confined to the underlying work.

Issues of Prosody, melody, meter rhythem, structure, rhyme, cadence etc. Reviewers should completely ignore current performance and production, but can make suggestions about how it might be improved by performance, production arrangement.

Then in the completed works section the song can be reviewed in it's entirety as a package.

Without making too much work for admin I agree if the look at me lot can be excluded then fine, if not, we can see there is no contribution history from that member and not bother to look. If I am following a work and it's going over to finished works. Then I know what it is and will go and listen. I am not likely to listen to a work I don't recognize because it hasn't been through the process.

So if it is too hard for admin it doesn't matter to me. I am only listening to work I have watched grow to see what happens.

I also think that at the work tape stage it gives an opportunity for members to invite others to play on each others songs through file sharing. Once the writing is the best it can be. I mean you get some people who are great guitarists but can't hold a note in a bucket. So they end up with over processed vocals trying to get a sound and the quality of work suffers.

In regard to files. I really like to have access to Mp3 because I can down load it to lost of devices and sort of have it playing a few times so Imcannget familiar with it. If it's a streaming file I have to be on the net to listen and it's less convenient.

Cheers

Gary

[Carrieptn]

In the following cases I ignore posts.

Posters who have had reviews on previous songs and have not taken those critiques on board in the current work.

I play a song for 30 seconds and if there is nothing there in that 30 seconds I move on.

Posters who have no clue as to melody or song construction.

If I have nothing to say that has not already been said by others.

I have to agree with Gary. I know I am new to this site, and I am by no means a professional songwriter, musician, or composer. I am not famous. I am not known by anyone famous. I am just me, but I've got an ear for music and I can tell you within 30 seconds, if a song is good. I'm constantly changing my radio stations, because there is crap music playing. There is art in every song, but there has to be some construction, whether it be lyrically, through rhythm or through melody. If you don't have these things, then you don't have a song, you have words with meaning (notice I said with meaning).

As a singer and songwriter, I respect, respectful crtique. Don't butter me up, but don't rip me to shreads. I want to feel confident, so constructive criticism may be the best term.. I want to get better. I know I'm not perfect. Personally, If I post my songs up on the "Lyric Critique" board, then critique them. I may not agree with what you say, but I still want to hear it. If you like it, tell me why. If you don't, tell me why. What would you change about my song? What can you offer as advice, that can help me? After all, isn't that why we post? Now, I may not use your suggestions (they may not suit me), but they don't go un-noticed or un-thought about. It's just the deal you make when you post your work on these boards.

I will admit that it is difficult to listen to a song the entire way through and the vocals be bad (most of the time I don't make it to the end...that is the 30 second test). Vocals are the KEY instrument in a song. They have to carry the lyrics. And for those that are songwriters and not singers, it's hard to "listen"....I'm only being honest here. I know this is something I have to work on as I am getting more involved in the Critique boards on here. I'm slowly getting the hang of this.

Bottom line, I think it's best for an aspiring artist to be told the truth. I don't think you should crush their dreams. I think if you can help them by giving them a good critique, they will be more grateful to you. I've been grateful to everyone that has offered advice to me here!

We have a WIDE VARIETY of members here, you aren't going to please everyone and your are going to piss off a few, it's cool....use the steam in your music