Overuse Of Rhyming....

[glissongs]

Lots of negative critique here on the overuse of rhyme. Personally, until I hear it in a song, I will never criticize the use of rhyming...

Yesterday

All my troubles seem so far away

Now it looks as tho they're here to stay

Oh I believe in yesterday

Suddenly,

I'm not half the man I used to be

there's a shadow hanging over me

Oh yesterday came suddenly

Unless someone is rhyming "I love you" with "Kangaroo" or some other such nonsense, it doesn't seem justified to criticize someone's lyrics 'cos you think they rhyme too much. Might as well say Lennon/McCartney were no good. Just sayin.....

[tomcollins]

forced and not getting the story out there is the issue, !! most of the greatest songs out there are rhyme based as you said a true classic, "yesterday !!! also use that to show others an AAA structure , but I also don't say much on how much a lyric rhymes, more on how it is forced , and also agree until it is put to music and heard , you never know !! but a great subject !! rock on !!!!!!

[john]

I think "too much rhyme" can be an issue if it's not well thought out. Yes Yesterday does repeat the essential vowel sound, however it is subtley different enough with 3 syllable words being used for line 1 and 4, while 2 and 3 are single syllable words. It's not a huge difference but, it is cleverly done.

If that had been kept as all single syllable full rhymes it may well have been too predictable. Too much rhyme is also more of an issue when the simple rhymes seem forced. ie the line adds no real meaning, just the rhyme. True, even full AAAA rhyme scheme can still work, but the lines need to be creative.... the only real exception is writing nursery rhyme songs, where simple rhymes are a bit more digestable.

For me, it's also a question of creativity, the level of simplicity you are aiming for, and what is expected for a target genre - are the words and phrasing appropriate for the topic and style of presentation to your audience?

[tomcollins]

john , well put and thought out , as your music!!, a lot of people here in the lyrics part of the site have issue's with the rhyming and structure , which I still do at times , but due to this site and the input giving to me by members , has improved in leaps and bounds, !! the structure of a lyrics AAAA,AABA what ever , the message needs to come thru and not seemed forced , guess what I am saying , need to learn the basics and grow from there !!!

[scotsman89]

when first starting don't we all rhyme as it sound good in your head,

simple Simon met a Pieman ,that is what I think most of us hear and try to write that way, only reading and learning changes you ,as I have found out, I thought I was doing ok ,but now know it's not that easy ,scotsman

Edited January 28, 2013 by scotsman89

[glissongs]

I guess maybe I'm just drawn to good rhymes married to great melody. Songs like...

Fire And Rain: James Taylor

Just yesterday morning, they let me know you were gone.

Suzanne, the plans they made put an end to you.

I walked out this morning and I wrote down this song,

I just can't remember who to send it to.

I cover a LOT of songs, and it seems almost all my favorites rhyme like crazy.

I guess all I'm saying is that it's one thing to read a sheet full of lyrics, it's another thing entirely to hear it sung.

[john]

Of course, that's a given. Poems are written word, with the rhythm of words alone. Song lyrics however are only made to be heard, not read.Fire and Rain at least is ABAB in rhyme scheme. That said verses in particular don't need to rhyme at all (which is a no-rhyme rhyme scheme) Full rhyme, is perfectly fine too. I think where people take issue is where the words haven't been chosen creatively, and making the rhyme seems to be more important to the writer than meaning. Lyrics are a component of a song, not a stand-alone item. That does not mean that a reader will not ompose a melody in their head, or at least try and get a rhythm. Certainly some songs lend to that, others do not. There's room for all. None the less, predictable, unimaginitive rhyme comes over as "too much rhyme" in the exactly the sense of rhyme over substance, and often doesn't work out well when sung. Sure the melody might make the song, but from experience often doesn't. Those songs just become the many songs with great melody and poor lyrics. True, they can still be hits. Certainly using a strong rhyme does not guarrantee a great song, neither does using a no-rhyme rhyme scheme. There are great and poor songs of all kinds, all genres.

Rhyme is important, however, in that it can be both creative, subtle or blatant, laid back or in your face, but it works best when used consistantly through comparable sections. Some full-rhyme songs are certainly more suited to certain moods. A full rhyme AABB or ABAB can be altogether too bouncy for more sombre songs and the opposite is true for no-rhyme songs. Not that it will never work, more that it is perhaps not the best scheme to use for a specific purpose and emotion.

Critique is a discussion. Comments on lyrics or music in isolation should be given and taken completely under the proviso that what is being critiqued is not the complete work, only a component. Comments are just that. An observation of the lyrics or music in isolation. The writer(s) is(are) the only one(s) to have any idea of the overall feeling of the finished work, however those offering critique, can, based upon writing experience, gauge whether the rhyme scheme, meter, and language are suitable to the emotions they experience on reading (hearing their own melody in their head, suggested by the same aspects of the work). It's your work. You accept the comments or not, as long as you understand why the comment was made, which is the whole point in critique being a discussion, not simply an opinion.

In general I would say the critique sections, many offering critique are minimal in effort, and the time that they devote to any one work is pretty transient. The wise ones really delve and give each due thought and consideration, after all they benefit as much if not more offering the critique than they would when receiving critique. The point for them is to exercise all their songwriting tools as much as they can when examining works that they are not emotionally attached to. I think that is often forgotten.

As the one receiving critique, most can spot those who have given more time and spent more effort than others. The depth of comment goes beyond 5 lines at any rate. Anyone can filter the interesting observations from the less interesting, the more or less thought out. Often those giving critique who don't put in much effort tend to give more extreme comments at either end of the spectrum, either pointing out only positive (pulling their punches if a punch is given) observations, or the liberation of the internet fuels more negative comments given without sensitivity to the feelings of the writer. Understanding their motivation, their reasoning is vital to putting their comments in context and giving due consideration so that you as the writer understands why. If you can say you understand why they say "too much rhyme", if you have explored that why and you believe in that case it is not merited or accurate, if you have a satisfactory explanation to yourself, then it is as valid as the credence you place upon those opinions and any offered solutions.

One point, to perhaps help reduce such full rhyme comments.... why not state in your post that you are happy with the rhyme scheme and you would prefer to focus on.... whatever, during the critique? Or perhaps say, you want to keep the full rhyme? It is after all your work, and you are seeking to get ideas, feelings, observations and suggestions... there is absolutely nothing to stop you directing critique for you to get what you consider teh maximum benefit from that critique. It also saves a lot wasted effort all round, and perhaps a degree of frustration on your part.

[tomcollins]

sounds like guide lines to what you are seeking from others , other then praise which seems is all that some want . but must agree and I am guilty myself , of not giving some lyrics my full attention !! also agree with what was said about the rhyming schemes . song story and rhyme, structure and music all play a part of the of the song as a whole . but feel if you can learn the different structures and look at others work and critique others work , you will grow and learn as a whole, which we should all want as people in this trade , or passion .

[glissongs]

Great points. And for what it's worth, I didn't start this thread due to any critique pointed at me. (I will probably ALWAYS rhyme, cos that is the style I like to sing....and NO ONE can stop me. Bahahahaha). It's just in reading through some different critiques, rhyming seems to be a big negative issue, and I would probably like to hear it sung first. There may be other things I don't like about it, but (for me) it's hard to fault rhyming since so many GREAT songs rhyme. In fact, I would go as far as to say that rhyming can sometime CARRY a song....

[john]

It can, indeed it's one of the fundamental components to rap and hip hop if nothing else

Perhaps you could offer some balancing comments when you feel, based on your experience, you get why a song might be a little wide of the mark, or why you feel it is spot on.

I think partly the issue is that rhyme is one of the more accessible and easy to understand aspects of songwriting, making it a firm favourite for drive by critiques! Too few song writers have an appreciation for different standard song forms (as the lack of participation in our January Song Contets confirmed!!), or what meter and scansion is, aliteration, metaphors, simillies are, never mind the difference between theme, vehicle and message of a song. Hooks are of course a dark art.

[glissongs]

John, thanks for the great insights. I will try my best to offer some balancing comments when I have the chance and/or see an opportunity. Truthfully, I've backed away somewhat from the "lyrics critique" forum cos I think I HAVE to hear it as a song to offer any meaningful or reasonable critique. So I'll probably confine myself to the "songwriting Critique" forum.

Regarding lyrics that don't rhyme.....playing and singing for so long has probably caused me to have difficulty judging songs that DON'T rhyme. I just don't have a good feel for them. (In fact, I'm sitting here trying to think of an immensily popular song where the lyrics don't rhyme, and I can't think of any.) For me, they don't flow as well. I wonder if it's a left brain/ right brain sort of thing???