Technical Question Regarding Polyrhythms

[dead last]

Hi all; I posted this initially in the Songwriting Discussion area, but I was redirected here because it seems that no one was able to answer my question in that part of the forum. So, here is my original post.

"I have been working on a composition recently. It is the first piece that I have composed on the keyboard, which I am fairly unfamiliar with.

The whole piece is based on a polyrhythmic pattern. The right hand plays a 4-note cycle. The left hand plays a 3-note cycle. By the time the right hand has played 5 repetitions of the 4-note cycle, the left hand has played 4 repetitions of the 3-note cycle. So, by the time a chord change comes around (which is every cycle), the right hand has played 20 notes, and the left hand has played 12 notes. So there is a 5/3 ratio.

My problem begins when I try to transcribe this music electronically. I have a music-writing program that lets you divide rhythms into sections of 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, and 15. Nevertheless, I CANNOT transcribe this keyboard music into my music player. I guess that I just can not figure the ratio with this program.

Is anyone familiar with such a pattern? I am excited by creating this pattern because it is *impossible* for me to "play in my mind". With every other song that I've heard/composed, I can "play" it to myself in my mind and make adjustments as I see fit before playing it physically. However, with this piece, I can *only* play it physically, and *cannot* "play" through it in my mind.

Has ever such a thing been done before in composition?"

Thanks for anyone able to help me out with this. I regret that I cannot upload a demonstration of the piece that I'm composing but like I said, my software seems incapable of replicating what my fingers are actually doing.

If worse comes to worse, I can probably record a section of my playing and upload it so that you can hear exactly what I mean. Let me know if that will help and I will figure it out.

[dead last]

Actually I do not *want* to transcribe the music electronically; I was trying to do that so I could upload a sample and let people listen to it but it didn't work out.

The question is only about the ratio of polyrhythms. What I am wondering about is whether someone else has ever used this polyrhythm in a composition before. I am intrigued by the idea that I might have discovered a unique type of polyrhythm that has not been done before, but I am cautious and willing to be proved wrong first.

[Just1L]

Play it. Record it. Post it. I'm not sure what you're getting at. By posting it, it may ring a bell, or sound familiar to something similar... or not.

[john]

I posted a reply on your other thread. tools wise I know of none other than simple multi-track recording. It sounds like a version of plainsong in structure, or at least highly related. Certainly conceptually, and other than that it would b. difference in number ratios which can be invented and reinvented until the cows come home... Ie it's not so much a discovery as an application of known technique.

[john]

My appologies, but your question still relates to a process that's entirely electronic in nature.

Were I to do what you've described, I would turn my keyboard on, physically play the part you've described, burn the track to disc and upload it.

I would have little or no concern over what to call it and quite a bit for what it actually sounded like.

Honestly, I'm not trying to be a wise ass. But I am trying to let you know that we operate on completely different levels.

Sorry I can't offer any assistance. Perhaps someone else will.

Tom

Tom, it's not an electronics thang... Polyrhythms have been used in many different genres:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyrhythm

I've even used a few myself. However mst are pretty simplistic in nature with relatively short sectional repeats. I think what is being suggested here does depart from what is commonly done with polyrhythms but I am not a polyrhythms expert. Far from it. I am a little surprised you think it's an electronically thing.

Rendering basic polyrhythms or polymeter can be possible in electronic composition tools, but depart into longer more complex patterns and the tools just will not cope. Performing such can be problematic too, certainly practice would be needed. I can understand why the OP might want to render it electronically!

[Kel]

I think you may find you can find the answer here: http://audio.tutsplus.com/articles/general/introduction-to-polyrhythms/

Edited August 22, 2013 by Kel

[john]

Not quite Kel as the suggested polyrhythms suggests different tempos as the ratios used would not create any standard note subdivisions, although that is a fairly good explanation of the polyrhythm concept (if almost identical to the wikipedia entry (someone has lifted on from the other). It remains closest to my understanding of plainsong in structure.

[Kel]

that's why I said "may" but it appeared to be a time signature puzzle to me.

[Rudi]

Blame me for directing the discussion here.

 

Drummers should know time best. That's why.

This is still a weird one to me though. I cant determine what the time signature is.  

[Chris Perra]

You'll need to figure out how to find notation that can do 2.4 notes per bar vs 4 notes per bar for 5 bars.

 

10 notes in a bar of 4/4 breaks down to  5 and then 2.5 if halved twice

 

Good luck with the 2.4  that's tough.  There's not a notation of 9.6 instead of 10 to start with.