How Many Plugins Do You Need?

[TapperMike]

It's funny, at KVRaudio  there are literally thousands of "non-musicians" who do nothing but load plugins into a daw and test them with a midi file.

 

For a time when plugins were new to me I'd endlessly search for free plugins spending more time in the pursuit of them then actually enjoying them. Mostly I was disappointed and all they would do is collect on my harddrive. I'd forget what worked and what didn't or which one I was going to come back to for further testing.  It took me a long time weeding the free ones out.

 

That abruptly changed when I started purchasing plugins. If I invested money first I'd take a long time checking reviews, watching videos and thinking before I bought. The "all in one" library has yet to happen for me, where I find something complete enough or satisfying enough that I don't have need/want of others.

 

Onw aspect has changed for me in regards to virtual instruments.  I know that I'll never be satisfied with rompler sounds.  for conventional instruments. modelling synthesis. And yet the modelled instruments I have are not the instruments I first load.  Usually I'll load whatever I've loaded last into my host and start playing with that. Perhaps it's because I'm guided by desire to perform music as opposed to searching and tweaking.

 

 

[LeeTBTS]

I used to install loads and loads of plugins, but it didn't take long to realise this stifles creativity by flooding your options.

Nowadays I'll be able to use nearly completely logics internal plugins with a few select extras and some real synths to give some aural variety.

[Stova007]

I mix in Logic Pro 9 and I only use 1 3rd party plug-in, which is a De-esser (Logic's De-esser isn't that great). So far, I've found that Logic has great plugins included and I haven't had too many issues. 

 

I firmly believe that plugins are great when used correctly, but don't expect them to change a bad recording into a good one.

[TapperMike]

Sometimes a cheaper vsti can save the day when more expensive ones fail.

 

I recently had to add a bass part for an old timey folk song. I tried the bass instruments from IK Sample Tank and that wasn't working. I tried the "real" basses from Rolands Dimension Pro and that wasn't working. DSF electric and acoustic basses weren't happening. In short I went through 150 different basses from about 10 major plug in companies and then started to think I'd be tweaking the mix till hell froze over for the bass to set right.  Finally I found what I was looking for in Luxonix Purity when I happened upon EB soft finger.

[dnafe]

I have tons of plugins, mostly Wave and UAD and for most things I use a handful - the go to plugs so to speak and if they don't do the trick then I'll start experimenting with others.

 

And I agree with the cheaper is sometimes better comment - ya just never know until you try them. 
 

[TapperMike]

I'm debating on moving over to Reaper as a Daw. I have an older version of Sonar which I can't find my registration info so I can't update. I usually prefer to work with samplitude for the mastering suite but it's been crashing like mad.  Latency is huge with Live.  I've had cubase.  I'm more interested in a less frills less spills type of environment like Studio One or Reaper.

[dnafe]

If you're doing a lot of midi work I'd go with Cubase. If audio is you gig then you can't go wrong with Reaper...solid as a rock, incredibly versatile and very easy to learn and work with. And the price is stupid cheap.

Kenny Gioia has a series of video tutorials at Groove3 ($30.00 I think) which will help you immensly in maximizing Reaper's potential. I've been on it for three years now and I'm still finding new things...I sometimes feel like I'm just scrathing the surface with this beast. 

We're using RADAR as our front end into an RME 9652 via light pipe into Reaper and then back out to RADAR to monitor...virtually no latency in the round trip.

 

Another DAW you might want to look at is MixCraft - a good songwriting friend of mine is now using it as his mainstay for writing and swears buy it and he's quite familiar with Reaper as I've recorded a couple dozen of his tunes with it...check it out

[dnafe]

When we were building our humble litle shop we debated the merits of going to Pro Tools...we chose Reaper because of its flexibility and it was easy to learn and use. Add to that the fact that to buy into the "PT Machine" was significantly more expensive than the cost to swap out our older DAWs and start using Reaper.

Had we been in a bigger market I have no doubts we would have gone with Pro Tools - industry standard and all.

[TapperMike]

I'd like to give a shout out of thanks to the Mixcraft suggestion. Right now I'm debating between Studio One2, Reaper and Mixcraft.

With Pro Tools it's all about. Perception. People percieve that it's the big bad name in audio product that everyone must have it. And it works against you in the big leagues because it's an expectation artists have. Here's in interesting comparisson. I work in the FLASH industry. (t's not as dead as markerts would have one believe. My company makes a "me too" product http://www.swishzone.com/index.php We have a wide variety of users from novice/amatures to major firms. Professionals like our product because it's easier to use and cuts down on production time. Yet they still keep flash around for those who insist that it be made with adobe flash. Adobe Flash has it's own set of quirks and limitations as well as features that would break the bank for us to adopt. We don't want to be adobe and our goal is to bring our own unique flash made simpler identity. The same can be said about the state of Pro Tools. It's easily recognized as being at the top of the food chain. And many a production house as well as educational facility blindly accepts whatever Pro Tools throws their way.

Pragmatism is what you make of it. Is it more pragmatic to embrace an industry standard in hopes of attracting major names and big budgets or is it more pragmatic to work in an environment that insures quick and equally effective results.

I am neither pro brand identity nor anti-brand identity when it comes to daws. If something has worked for me well in the past I may continue to go along with it. However if it does not meet my expectations I will not hold out and wait maybe for them to fullfill it. I don't throw good money after bad.

Here is an abridged summary of what I have had or still use.

Cubase -

I was using cubase back during windows 3.1 I still have various versions of cubasis laying around that were free with various purchases. God awful UI. Midi tracking was better when I was using a midi to printer port cable. Fairly decent at CC support for plug ins. I applaud Steinberg for VST1, VST2, VST2.5 but not VST3 They offered up an industry standard so that instruments and effects could be used across multiple daw/host platforms and raised an industry up of plug in makers both professional and amatuer. They did what hasn't been done since the implimentation of midi itself nor afterwards. VST3 takes a lot of minor players out of the game. VST2.5 has all the features of VST3 without the draconian licensing. I've had many cubasis software versions that have been packed with various hardware controller. Still crappy ui.

Cakewalk -

Here is another oldy of mine. I got Home Studio back in ...'95 since then I've also owned various incarnations including protracks and sonar. Better midi input implimentation worse audio implimentation. Functional effective UI

I had numerous problems with hardware integration. Hardware that I specifically purchased for it's integration capabilities with Cakewalk. Things like channel bleeding controls not functioning as they should.

SouceForge / Acid -

I believe it was before Sony's aquisition of Sourceforge but I could never get the damn thing to work I paid a lot of money for it, no support and no refund. It was bloatware sometimes I thought all the ram and processing power in the world wouldn't save it. And in my case I was right.

I purchased Acid when it was still owned by Vegas. That was my money maker for a time. A large multimedia conglomorate had aquired flaskit and wanted to invigorate it by providing free loops. They paid me good money to start the show and I produced a large assortment of loops for them. After the ball started rolling they offered it up to the masses where anyone could upload loops and apply various rights to them. http://www.flashkit.com/loops/

I also made contributions to the movie sound FX library. Through my involvement with flashkit as a member and flash designer I would get thrown a bone from various other flash developers usually for incidental music without the rights restrictions that dealing with a company like taxi as well as the other costs. As well there were a growing number of acid users who were willing to pay me for my mixdown/mastering and occassional session work adding tracks.

I knew it wouldn't last but it was money and work. I would have people contacting me showing what they had done previously some were specfic (which I prefer) about what they wanted and or needed and some where less specific (which can lead to inhouse problems especially in bands) I would evaluate the rough stereo cut. Explain what I thought was needed and offer a pricing guide for those services. I gained both a lot of credibility and a lot of rejection. Someone might take my ideas and feel they didn't need me or take them to a different party. A few would come back and be more then happy to pay me for my services. I never overcharged for my work. And sometimes that would be hell if I needed to put in extra effort and time to get the job done right.

Acid was aquired by Sony and many of my base were working in the sony version. So I had to. The first installments of Acid were incredibly dummied down and lacked the features I'd come to know and love about acid. I felt that the price increase wasn't worth it. Still I relented and caved to Sony. I'd ended up doing more then a few tricks to pull the tracks out then work in Cakewalk and later Magix/samplitude. If the customer only wants the end result of the stereo tracks that's fine. However If one has to then try and get the tracks back into acid it's impossible (well not impossible simply degrading audio quality) I through good money after bad chasing acid hoping for a return to the level of quality I'd experienced with the Vegas version of the product. Sony's representitives told acid user who were also clamouring that... We weren't the demographic. We were too smart for the product. They saw the cash cow as those who weren't engineers but temp workers or hobbyists. My working with Acid was originally enjoyable and while it didn't make me rich atleast allowed me to make some money in the industry. It was also fleeting. There is no longer an environment where I could make money using acid and no desire to use the product. Even though in successive years sony did step up the game a little. It pales by comparission to the rest of the industry. I have other issues with sony sufficent that I never want to deal with the company at any level for anything they may have. This is not limited to the daw market.

Adobe -

I have way, way too many issues with Adobe, some may not be what people think. While I have worked in studios using adobe products in the past I won't be working with 90% of thier products any time in the forseeable future.

more.....

[dnafe]

Industry compatability is an issue for sure and only you can determine if that is important to you.

 

Truth is unless you're going to NEED to bring full projects to another studio I'd really go for what you're comfortable working with. You can always render your tracks to 0:00.000 time as a wav file and take them to any studio on the planet.

 

As an aside many of the top guys guys I know are using Logic which is also a killer DAW.  I've worked with it but the downside is you need to be on a MAC and even now there are some issues with the latest MAC OS and Logic...or at least that's what I've heard from a couple of guys so I reserve the right to be wrong.

 

Edited January 22, 2014 by dnafe

[TapperMike]

Real Band -

Realband is a real gem for Band in a Box devotees such as myself. It is not what I would consider a full bodied DAW. My version of Realband is dated I'm told that the issues I've experienced regarding midi input have been addressed and the new features of BIAB and Realband are quite exciting. Still I'm not ready to click the Upgrade button. Realband has a hokey homespun ui to match with BIAB. certain features that I've come to expect nay demand in a daw simply aren't present. While I continue to use Realband and more importantly biab on a daily basis and I would reccomend BIAB/Real band to the novice old school hobbyist enthusiast. BIAB is a dream for arranger/composer types in the writing process. Transferring biab songs to realband for more complete audio performance as well as mixdown completes it. While the audio cleaning features are enjoyable it still has a long way to go in mixdown/mastering.

Samplitute/Magix -

This was "THE ONE" Better midi support, better cleaning tools outstanding mastering tools (for it's time) Better UI, Better handling of audio singals. It was my be all end all. The effects looked and sounded like brand name hardware versions that I'd used back in the anolog galaxy of the 70's and 80's (long before iRig etc) The most important part... better dithering. Something that guys like me slave over and non engineers throw up their hands and just cry why about. There are a million things I love about this product and one thing I loath. It crashes all the time. Too much bloatware in the code. Errors popping up constantly. For some reason while in the past it handled mutiple audio formats and sampling rates with ease now it's a disaster waiting to happen.

Abelton Live

I've had various incarnations of the lite versions as supplied by hardware manufacturers. I've never thought the product was worthy of paying out for the pro based on what I've experienced with the light version.

Terrible audio sample rate adjustment. Sometimes things are recorded at a very high sample rate and other times low. Depending on which codec was used (there are several codecs out for any given format) This can crash on import. No rhyme no reason. Mediocre audio input processing. I know the whole zero latency audio trick (and yes it's a trick) too bad Abelton hasn't figured it out. Midi latency and cc issues. (Why the freak is it so bad and doesn't handle/filter aftertouch at all) It seems to me they added all this wiz band time correction / quantization to cover up for the fact both they and users can't get something right the first time. So be amazed at the broken record fixer.

I'll admit. After playing with trackers and using hardware sequencers forever and a day I was completely baffled by session view. I didn't get it and I was too arrogant to RTFM. I was no stranger to EDM production hardware but I was still flabergasted. Once I finally adapted to session view and dealt with the poor midi implementation. I was in stupid heaven creating the most inane of iname loops and playing with the scene and loop features. So much so I rarely delved into the arrangement view. It was amusing and trite, I much preferred jazz improvisation and conventional songwriting and arranging. It's funny I often thought about trying to pursue employment with Abelton as I have backgrounds in programming, and production.

So now....

Now I have a very very limtied budget. Any aspirations of returing to audio production recording or general musicianship playing on a pay basis have all but vanished. Lean, stable, capable of handling midi and audio with equal respect. Decent plugins for post processing.

My Choices are_

1. Mixcraft: (it looks good, the vsti's I already own I have not trialed it.

2. Reaper: This product is loved by younger budget concious types. It's still very flexible but you have to dig. The guy at the top is a little zany. But I love how he goes out in the public forums and addresses matters head on. I think he's got one heck of a track record. I admire his dedication to code. And I like the fact that he builds software and tests ti on less powerful computers. His stuff is designed to work with average joe computers, not super server powerhouses running xeon with rme audio cards or high end macs.

3. Studio One2 (artist): This broke industry standards when it was released. Die hard big brand producers ran from bloatware to embrace the stability and grace that Studio One has to offer. So many others that have walked in my exact same shoes in regards to big name daws have switched for good.

[dnafe]

One thing about Reaper vs MixCraft (can't comment on Studio One2 as I am unfamiliar with it but I do know of it) is the free version of Reaper is full blown, ready for prime time right out of the box whereas MixCraft's fee version is severely limited (as in there is none)  in it's routing capability.

I'd download Reaper (free) , go to Groove3 and get the tutorials ($30), load up some tracks and have some fun.  It's not a diffcult DAW to learn as it's quite intuitive.  Can't get much cheaper than that
 

[TapperMike]

I've already had my trial of reaper. But to be honest I did not use my time wisely. I'm pretty good around daws in general (save my momentary lapse of reason with Abelton live) And I'm also a forum member here - http://kvraudio.com

Which is mostly focused on hosts and plug ins. The place is huge the knowledge is vast even if it's gruff and the musical tastes vary from my own.

First, I'm going to accululate data from the general populus (like here) Then I'm going to review each daw separately. Then I'll make a purchase decision.

[gabrielmichaux88]

Download reaper for free. It is recording software that handles alot like protools. It comes with a crap load of pluggins. All the ones u will need except autotune, their tuning pluggins sucks. Pluggin wise id say you cant have too many but the ones I always have ready just in case is

Compressor

multi band eq

reverb

delay

autotune

exciter

master limiter

[starise]

Well.... I usually need the plugin I don't have

 

At last count I have  404 plug-ins and that number is small compared to some. Probably over 300 of them are after market plug-ins. The rest came with my DAW and there are a dozen more plug-ins as standard included in each channel in another container called the Pro Channel in Sonar.

 

If I include the plug-ins in my other two main daws it amounts to many more than that, but they all aren't interchangable with each other.

 

All plug-ins aren't created equal...the ones in Logic are pretty good I understand. Most of the "bread and butter" plug ins in most decent daw software are decent, but I have found that there are certain ones that do things the others can't really do very well. 

 

Did you ever hear of an EQ that is also a compressor/expander and has sidechain capability? Take a look at MAutodynamic EQ by Melda....I think this is the future of plug ins....not necessarily a hardware copy but another creation that surpasess those old hardware units. Don't get me wrong here...I have a few Pultec copies and a nice hardware Pultec is hard to come by unless you have some serious money. The software replications of it are amazing.

 

A similar thing is guitar amp software that doesn't try to copy, say...a Marshall. Instead it has an amp like sound that can be shaped to whatever you want it to sound like...and this can be outside the confines of hardware. I see a few of these kinds of things hitting the market.

 

You only think you don't need it until you try it