Jazz Guitar

[Rudi]

Further to the side alley detour from the 'effects chain' topic, and Tapper Mike's new archtop announcement (yet another guitar!), I have found myself here.

 

An Epiphone ES 175 with gibson PUs.

 

http://www.andertons.co.uk/semi-hollow-amp-hollow-body/pid33215/cid670/epiphone-es175-premium-outfit-electric-guitar-in-natural.asp?LGWCODE=33215;56375;2717&utm_source=googlebase&utm_term=ET75NANH3&utm_medium=pricecomp&utm_campaign=GoogleShopping&gclid=CJy9rLHo5sECFazItAodmxsA4w

 

At least Andertons now has stock. A few days ago it was 'available to order' only. I've never been to this shop. Its in Guildford, about 55 miles north of me. According to one web page its 46 minutes away (faster than it used to be when I worked in Weybridge but we only had farm trails & horse transport then).

 

This 'Club' version may be the business, I really have no idea. I am thinking of nipping up there after xmas to find out.

Edited November 6, 2014 by Rudi

[TapperMike]

What a fine box indeed.  You should go in and play one even if you aren't in a position to buy..  I think you'll find the action very satisfying.  You might consider upgrading the tuners. They have to cut costs somewhere and usually it's there.

 

I've played more jazz boxes then doans has pills. And even the same model design can sound different with different manufactures or even different brand labels in the same house.  A squier strat isn't the same as a strat, Hell strats from fender can sound and feel quite different from one another.

 

 

In other news my Eddie Durham JX 17 arrived today.  Heavenly,  I'm giving it a full workout today then I'll give a few review in my blog

[Rudi]

I have realized that Nevada have the proper Gibson original.

http://www.nevadamusic.co.uk/p/ES75VNNH1/electric-guitars/gibson/gibson-1959-es-175-vintage-sunburst

but at £3,399.00 its likely to stay in the shop. Since this is close, I will see if I can try this first. I hope I like it, but not enough to want it.

 

Just about to check on Mike's E Durham (though I 'spect he's still playing it).

[TapperMike]

It's a rarity to find I think it would be near impossible to do so in the UK.

 

Sam Ash is an american direct (mail order and web) retailer.  It's very very large like musicians friend.

Sam Ash has a house brand of guitars named... Guitar Research.

Sam Ash/GR only released Eddie Durham models in 2006

There are two models which are quite different and yet each one is rather well made and affordable.  The JX17 which more closely resembles The D'Angelico EXL and the JX16 which resembles a gibson es175.  Your millage may vary but I fould the JX16 more pleasing then any other gibson es-175 copy on the market.

 

Give a listen...

 

If you want to go in price up but not to a Gibson es-175  The new D'angelico guitars are quite amazing

The EXL-1, EX-175 and lastly the EX-SS

 

The EXL(excel) is the big box (17 inch) jazz guitar akin to Wes Mongomery's L5

 

The EX175 Is a very new entry to the D'angico line up

It is very decidedly closer to a gibson 175 then all competitors combined.  With the exception that it has a bigsby tremelo

 

And finally The ex-ss

 

The ex-ss is a semi hollow body (center block) I already have two semi-hollow bodies personally and while they can be "warmed up a bit" by using flatwounds they miss that certain deep warm and creamy high that can only be attained by a full hollow body.

 

If you can happen on a Carlo Robelli Manhattan it;s a rare inexpensive yet high quality gem of a guitar similar to the D'angelico EXL and my ED guitar.

[Rudi]

Right. So I go to Nevada to try the Gibson ES175.

I cant find it anywhere so I speak to an assistant, who checks and discovers that despite the web page entry, they havn't one in stock. 

 

To salvage something of the visit, I ask to try the Epiphone Broadway, The fattest archtop there. As soon as I picked it up I knew it wasnt going to be good. It wasnt, it was nasty. It felt uncomfortable, and it sounded poor too.

 

It was run through an orange amp on the clean channel. I tried every configuration of the pickups & tone/volume controls. Everything sounded nasty. Instead of rich mellow dark tones, it gave me mud. The string tension was pretty high. I would rather have a high action than taut strings like this.

It may just have been that guitar, but it doesnt bode well for my further outlook concerning Epiphone Archtops.

 

Yes, the strings were regular medium gauge and had not yet settled in. They were going out of tune a lot. The PU selector was poor and crackled badly time I touched it.

 

The only other likely looking candidate was an odd looking matt blue Ibanez which had a lower action and flatwound strings. I didnt try this however.

 

Maybe I'll persevere with my nylon strung guitars for a while. They sound a lot sweeter than that Broadway.

[TapperMike]

Yikes,  Sorry to read of your disappointment.  There is much discussion about how bad recent epiphone guitars have gotten since moving to china for production.

 

Orange is not a good amp for jazz.

Roland Cubes (the new ones with amp sims) on the cheap side. Or fender bassman/ fender deluxe. Or even acoustic guitar amps are better suited.

Roll off the tone on the amp

Treble = 0 Mid 4 Bass 4 guitar tone 5

 

You are experiencing what I did years back. I'd go out with a brand in mind and then been thoroughly disappointed with the actual instrument. This was after I'd read all the reviews and watched all the video's.

 

I don't know what's available over there.  Try out some Peerless or made by peerless guitars

Most notably from peerless

Peerless Jazz City

 

.

Peerless Monarch

 

Peerless Gigmasters are a little brittle for my ears.Manhattans are ...well they resemble more of an acoustic guitar in tone then the D'angelico NY which they are meant to emulate. Oddly I'm not that big a fan of Cremona either.

 

D'angelico EXL-1

Is a very very close approximation of a gibson L5 and a D'angelico NY

 

 

Here's an interesting update to finding out more about my Guitar Research Eddie Durham. It is the same guitar as a Carlo Robelli Manhattan.Sam Ash owns both brands and had them both manufactured at Peerless. The only discernable differences aside from brand names are...the tailpiece construction. They are also carbon copies of the Peerless Monarch (which was developed later) though I can't verify the necks on the sam ash versions being the same thickness as the peerless. The tone difference is indiscernible to my ears.  

 

About floating bridges.

When you have a floating bridge force must be exerted from the string downward to keep it in place. This means the overall string tension can be higher and the action must be higher (to a degree) in order to support the bridge.  Early Les Pauls had a similar setup but Gibson changed the setup and went for a fixed bridge / stop tailpiece for this exact reason. The action on the earlier model LP's was both "floppier and higher" then those that came later with the fixed tailpiece design.  The obvious solution is to make the frets higher...(my one quibble with my recent acquisition) You don't need to push the string all the way down to the fretboard to obtain a clear tone. Simply snuggle up to the fret.

 

One can't have a fixed tailpiece on a full bodied jazz box because of the force it exerts on the arched top. I've had a few flat top acoustics that due to poor reinforcement that caused the top to buckle and the bridge/saddle to force forward even though the neck showed no bow.

 

Which moves us onto.. Semi hollow bodies.

Semi hollow bodies with stop tailpieces allow us many conveniences that solid bodies offer. Lower action, Thinner necks, Better tuning stability. Easier bending and less "floppiness" especially when playing with thinner strings. Typically Semi-hollow body construction relies basically on Les Pauls "log" guitar. A center block is mounted to the neck and body of the guitar that "chambers" the instrument. It reinforces the neck which reduces stress on the neck itself as well as the outer body. It reduces feedback while increasing sustain. Any acoustic properties are thrown out the window. It's a "tighter sound" that is more inline with the tone of a solid body then one of a full hollow body.

 

I happen to own two semi hollow bodies. A Raven West 450 (prs semi hollow body copy) and Michael Kelly Phoenix Vibe. (Howard Roberts III copy)

The floating bridge on the MK is about as useful in tone replication as Man Boobs. The scale length (26'?) makes fretting easier but it comes at a cost that makes many of those "jazzy stretchy' Chords and octaves challenging if not impossible for someone with my hand/finger size.  Still it's good for a lot of fusion smooth jazz and LP type tones. I rarely play it as I live for playing big jazz chords..  The RWG450 is a totally different kettle of fish.

Super slim D profile neck, super low action on a 24 fret fretboard. It's extremely tight and odd to play at the same time. Sure I can play all my happy chords and octave licks no problem. What I don't get is that elusive "classic jazz tone" and I've tried everything. Pretty it up all you want and what you get is a slightly thinner Les Paul tone.

 

A few guitar manufacturers have tried to update the classic hollow body tone on semi hollow bodies and failed miserably. Most notably the samick Royale. They took a solid piece of wood and carved out the middle then "wrapped" wood around it. Punchy vibrant but lacking any "jazz" credibility to my ears. I tried every RL model ever produced and still wasn't hearing the love.

 

The winner in the "semi-hollow body that sounds most like a full hollow body category is the D'angelico EX-SS

 

The bridge is fixed even though he's got a traditional tailpiece. They are available with traditional Les Paul type "stop tailpiece" configurations.

What makes this unique is that the center block does not go through the length of the guitar. Instead it's a "T" shaped block that stops behind the pickups allowing air to flow freely in the body between the pickups. This "t style block" offers all the pluses we know and love about standard solid bodies such as tuning stability, lower action and comfortable neck. Not to mention a body style that those of us who come from the world of solid body guitars can comfortably play.

 

In short the D'angelico EX-SS is the closet you'll get to a es-175 sound in a semi-hollow body and far more comfortable to play then any 175 clone or for that matter a Gibson ES-175.  It's a decision that only you can make for yourself.

Edited November 11, 2014 by TapperMike

[TapperMike]

A few added notes.

 

Dropping the tuning either by a half step or whole will make playing on these higher action guitars much easier but also may cause them to be ....well floppier.  I'm quite comfortable with lowering the tuning on my jazz box but you might not be.  Another simple solution is to use a capo on the 1st fret. Jazz guitarists rarely reach for open strings.

[Rudi]

I know some players who drop tuning this way. I have done but prefer not to. Years ago I wondered why the C open tuning caused intonation issues upstairs. At that time I didnt understand that tuning abuse caused this. I realise that one tone wont make any discernable difference, but other problems creep in when playing in a band.

 

I mentally transpose quite a bit when I solo live (though not nearly as much as I used to). Having to factor in another tone or semitone difference is more than my meagre brain can cope with.

 

*

back to Jazz guitar:

 

Apparently D'angelico EX-SS never visit the uk. I can find no link at all. 

I may try that odd looking Ibanez when I go to Nevada next. Who knows they may even get a ES175 by then?

 

Otherwise is off to Anderton’s at Guildford over the holidays.

 

Meanwhile...

I have been experimenting with my Camps Guitar. I’ve had this nylon Spanish Classical model for about 10 years. I chose it over much more playable instruments for the simple reason that it sounds better. It was also the loudest one in the shop. With acoustics this is common, volume so often equates with a richer sound overall.

 

The sound is how I choose any guitar. It is the first and most important consideration.

Let me explain how good the Camps sounds. The Camps is a complete and utter pig to play, and I bought it anyway. That’s how good it sounds.

 

Technically it has been a challenge to use. The large scale has meant that I physically cant reach certain chord positions. I have been able to overcome this by darting from string to another just as the string is plucked instead of holding down a chord. It works 90% of the time.

 

I wanted a Spanish guitar for certain pieces that lend themselves to a classical sound. I also bought it to develop the right hand techniques that can only be used with nylon strings.

 

Last week I abused it shamefully when I used a pick on it for the first time. It actually sounds pretty good this way. I don’t have to worry about latency of attack for one thing. This is of paramount importance to me, because that single issue has spoiled so much of my electric playing. I suspect it has to do with reliance on signal processors.

 

The string tension is fairly light despite the high action, so once my left hand has pushed down the strings, it’s very like playing a well set up guitar in those local hand positions.  

So far this will suffice for jazz work, and it’s a pleasure using it this way.

 

Mike, thank you for the comprehensive info & guidance. I will resume the archtop quest anon.

[TapperMike]

A buddy of mine who has been a gigging jazz guitarist since the 60's uses 09's on his box. I would cringe but because of an issue with his thumb he has to brace the guitar against his body and use that along with the simple force of his fingers to connect down on the notes. 

 

Personally I would suggest you invest in a capo. Jazz guitarists run away from open notes  A capo will offer lower action which makes thicker strings easier to play and increased tuning stability much like a locking nut.

 

Hagstroms and Hofners make it to your shores.  I see them maybe once in a decade around these parts.

I tried a hofner and do not recall liking it.  That was after a long series of disappointments with Washburns so my memory may be clouded.

[Rudi]

I have a bunch of capos.

 

I would rather re-work the nut/1st fret than use a capo.

The Camps action would be difficult to lower from the bridge. It could be done but would need the wood part of it cut back as well as the ivory.

 

I also suspect that I might need to change to higher tension strings if I did this.

Bottom line: I really dont want to compromise the sound.

 

Hagstroms? I'll look into them.

[Rudi]

OK there is one Hagstrom & one Godin at another shop in Farnham (a bit nearer than the Guidford one).

They could be gone before the holiday period, but on the plus side thaey stock both Peerless and D'Angelico models.

 

Spec-wise, the Peerless Port Town seems better suited to me. So do their signature Martin Taylor models but using one of those would hurt a bit (see my signature model thread).

 

It may work out that I like none. In that case I would cast around for another nylon strung model.

[Rudi]

The shop dont have a Port Town in stock. groan....

[TapperMike]

Cant you just mail order from someone in the UK like these guys

http://guitarvillage.uk.com/products/2/Archtop-Semi.aspx

[Rudi]

I shouldve disclosed where I was headed to. Its is actually guitar village in Farnham!

 

Well done for that bit of research Mike. Its amazing you got the exact same place I'm headed for.

 

I have only ever mail ordered one guitar only. That was the Yamaha Silent.

 

I wouldnt do this normally though. Especially with a new venture such as an archtop. I dont yet know what I will like. I havnt sufficient experience with this sort of model.

 

The furtherest Ive ever traveled to try guitars was to Kirkham Lancashire. This was the former premises of Fylde.

http://www.fyldeguitars.com/

 

I still have the Fylde I got from there some 40 years ago. I think I paid about £170. They cost one a hell of a lot more now.

 

I am still doing some research, but you (Mike) have saved me a massive amount already. Thanks for that.

[EJB]

Joe Pass used a

D'Aquisto here.

Edited December 14, 2014 by EJB

[Rudi]

Joe is the jazz player I admire most.

 

I once saw him at Ronnie Scotts, and Oscar Peterson dropped by and sat in on the piano. 

Joe knew nothing of this until he heard the piano. He had been playing with his eyes closed.

I was sat right up front to stage & could clearly see everything Joe was doing. Not that it did me much good

[Rudi]

Nevada Music was quiet today so I tried out the Ibanez Archtop they have. Oddly I cant find it anywhere online, not even at Nevada's webpage (not this single PU version anyway).

 

Its about the same shape as the Epiphone Broadway I tried last month. It has a single humbucker at the fingerboard position, floating bridge, 20 frets and flatwound strings. It has a sparsely applied light matt blue paint job. An odd finish for this sort of animal. At a little over £400, its also cheap. 

 

It sounded better than I thought it would. I wound down the action a little and it didnt play too badly either. It didnt shout buy me though, and I found the narrow fretboard too much of an ordeal to work with. 

 

I can work with higher actions if I have too, but narrow necks and small radii are a no-no. My fingers just complain if I try. They say 'what the *%€* have you given me here?!' 

 

Anyone who's had to appologise to their fingers in a guitar shop will know what I mean. 

[TapperMike]

Ha,

 

I'm the opposite. Trying to move up to a standard "C" neck from a slim C was a challenge for me. Standard C's are not that thick.

 

Ibby archtops aside from the George Benson model don't do anything for me. They just don't have the right magic warmth. Oddly same with most Gibson archtops jazz guitars.

 

Completely off topic

It's funny how critical I've become of jazz legends I used to admire.  I still admire them but less now then when I used to.

Take Tal Farlow

 

He's got great fills, knows how to play chord/melody like no ones business and yet...not really that musical when trying to play by himself. There isn't that light bouncy feel the song deserves. It's more like he's going through the motions and doesn't lock in a groove.

 

Johnny Smith on the other hand is quite lyrical, singing 

 

Granted he has a pianist behind him. Still JS takes a lot of liberty with the melody, sometimes his embellishments go a little to far.

 

Barney Kessel sounds great....When he's not playing his own signature guitar.

 

When Kessel is playing one of his signature models (Kay, Aria) I cringe. His frets are uneven and the intonation is way off. The tone is also undesirable.

 

If Ted Greene had only cleaned up the tone a little (too much fuzz) This would have been near perfect

 

But the whole face head and body movement when he plays live is ..a little freaky distracting.

[Rudi]

I have listened to the Farlow, Smith & the 1st Greene links and see what you mean. My server is failing the struggling to buffer the Kessel ones though. It makes me really want to see them too.

 

Maybe I should try again tomorrow.

[Rudi]

Ok I got 2nd Kessel one now (I forgot I was downloading a new waterfox).

The fret buzz is shameful. I can see the intonation issue at about the 7 minute mark (turnarounds). I stopped shortly after that.

 

His Misty is just what I would hope & expect though. I glad I watched this last.