Jazz Guitar

[Rudi]

Well I was only hoping for a link or two maybe.

 

Dont let this weigh heavy on you Mike!

 

And I was thinking of patches for the Jacksons not the archtop. I will only use minimal FX on that. In fact Ive only ever plugged it in twice, and one of those was in the shop. Its lovely as an acoustic.

[TapperMike]

Rich's evaluation is great. I was struck at how close the 2 vids were tonally.

 

I changed the strings this morning'

supplied were:                 New are:

E 046                                     E 052

A 036                                     A 042

D 026                                     D 032

G 017                                     G 024w

B 013                                      B 016

E 010                                      E 012

 

Quite a difference. I had to raise the action again to finally lose all the low E buzz. I had wondered if the nut height was correct. I mentioned it to the luthier I am using. I had to collect my Jackson today anyway so he said bring it over and lets see. He said the nut was fine as was the neck. So simple height adjustment was the correct solution.

 

Perhaps the fretboard really is ebony then?

 

My jazz chops are basic. You recommend Rich S. then Mike?

 

 

I had to come back to this and buzz on open strings.  Some archtops have a 17 Degree pitch and some have a 14.  14 is a slight angle and it;s hard to get the right angle coming from the post to the nut.  I only say this is I put on the same size strings on my phoenix vibe only to find open string buzzing. I didn't wrap the string sufficiently around the post which can cause both tuning stability issues and open string buzz. 

[Rudi]

The (.052") low E (which was/is the buzz culprit) is heavier than Hofner anticipated because it doesnt fit into its slot in the nut properly. Its too big.

 

Ideally I need to be able to raise that string independently but that is an impossibility without carving a new custom bridge.

 

 

On the subject of custom bridges, I have noticed that some are set at angles other than 90%. At first I thought this was sloppy setting up, but then reasoned that it could well be deliberate.

 

Considering the claims for the 'fanned fret' fingerboards, it would make sense to angle (away from perpendicular) the floating bridge to improve intonation.

[Rudi]

Along with the Hagstrom Deuce, I got the Hofner back from the luthier yesterday.

 

The new lighter strings (11s) were on and the action lowered a little. It feels quite transformed. He moved the bridge forwards slightly from my marks (about 3/16"). I couldnt tell any difference to intonation. But the string tension is now much improved. I dont have to break out in a sweat anymore to play it. The sound is very nearly as it was but it doesnt ring out quite so readily. In fairness, I expected that with the string change from 12 to 11.

 

It still has its rich jazz tone and is now very much easier to play.

 

Simon asked if I had tried any other Hofners at the Guitar Village and was this a typical build standard. I think he is quite taken with it. He did photograph the guitars for his facebook page, though I was unable to find them when I checked.

 

Oh yes, and I finally picked out a hard case at Nevada. So I have now retired that flipping cardboard box.

[TapperMike]

Yep, I did near the same thing with the JX16.  All I had around the house was 13's and a set of 09's and I went with the 09's Some loss to the deep bass response but it still retains most of the tonality and that singing sympathetic vibration is alive and well.  I'm reluctant to buy more strings right now. I've got myself on a strict budget till the next job comes along.  Flatwounds aren't cheap but there are places where one can buy either in bulk or by lot and save big bucks.  When I buy strings it's usually on Ebay and by Lot (two to twelve sets of strings) Unfortunately I've yet to find a deal on flatwounds by lot. 

[Rudi]

The 11's still have the wound 3rd which is nice.

 

I'm still somewhat confused as to how this rich sound is achieved. The Godin Kingpin I tried in Exeter was so bland. It looks the part and played beautifully.

 

The Epiphone Broadway didnt have it either (at least the one I played), and that did have a Gibson like build.

 

Mike just seems to be able to pick out something spec-wise and find what he's looking for.

[TapperMike]

Well I've got a few stories about that.

 

Gibson had a long history in making mandolins, banjos and other acoustic instruments before the jazz era. When jazz first appeared on the scene the guitar wasn't the main rhythm instrument. The Banjo was because... Everything was acoustic and whoever was strumming had to be heard over brass and woodwinds.  The first "jazz" guitars were made for one thing.  Acoustic loudness. Gibson's early non electric jazz guitars were the loudest and that's what got people buying them. The first electric jazz guitars were still very acoustic. They didn't want to cut holes in the body for the pickup because it would reduce the acoustic resonance. So they mounted the pickup to the neck. Hence the floating pickup.  Guitarists would still play acoustically for chords and only bring up the volume for occasional solo's.  The feedback and noise were near unbearable.

 

Gibson started "buying" artists.  Some guitarist shows up in a magazine or on the cover and sales jumped. So gibson would give them guitars and have contracts with them for advertising. Which paid the artist little to nothing but... It kept him in the spotlight for better bookings and the like. Even a professional guitarist who was well received locally but not on the national spotlight would get cut rate deals on gibson guitars.  It was mostly about PR.  (more on this later...)There were other big brands such as Washburn and Epiphone (before it was bought by Gibson) making good but slightly different guitars. None of them went the distance in advertising.  And there were custom high priced companies like D'angelico and D'aquisto but no one could afford them.  By the mid 50's the Gibson name was so well ingrained in the music culture (even without Les Paul) that you had to have a Gibson or you couldn't get a gig.  Most gibson jazz guitars were expensive as hell to the average player.  For the most part the prices were the model numbers. 400, 335 etc.  The 165 was a "student" model guitar set to a lower price and made to a lower standard. One pickup set slightly back from the neck position and laminate as opposed to solid top and bottom.  If you didn't have money for a higher end gibson you got a 165 or later 175.  

 

The 175 became the defacto jazz guitar because the laminate top did a better job of rejecting feedback. It wasn't as loud (didn't have to be because everyone would play electrified all the time by that point) and by virtue of it's less expensive (over a super 400) pricing people felt more comfortable taking it out to gigs.

 

The Gibson brand makes the best gibsons ever made in the history of the company right now today. Everyone who can also makes better guitars due to advances in technology.  Way back when Gibson didn't always mean the best sounding (although that's what we think of because of it's domination of the market) What they made was the best production guitars for the technology at the time. High priced skilled labor  with years of experience and quality control (that fell away for a few years when they moved from Michigan to Tennessee. In the 50's and 60's

 

Before Gibson bought Epiphone long long ago Epi made exceptional acoustic guitars but only fair jazz guitars. It was all about the fancy headstock pretty designs. People back then as today were so overwhelmed by the artistic finishing touches that they ignored the rather bland performance. Gibson could build Epiphones in asia as well as they build gibsons in the US.(they have in the past when epi's were made in japan. The Epi's could sound way better as their own sound or identical to their Gibson brothers.  However Epi is a cash cow for Gibson and If epi's were as good as Gibsons who would feel the need to purchase the gibson nameplate?

Edited March 13, 2015 by TapperMike

[Rudi]

Thats facinating history Mike.

 

Also that the best Gibsons are made now.

 

Are they still made in USA? Because I'm sure you are aware that there have been assertions that they are not. Or perhaps just finished in USA?

 

As for the Epis. I would like to find a 339 to try. They sound good on YouTube anyway.

[TapperMike]

I hate going into music stores to check out guitars.

 

 

If it's not every spoo in the world trying to play different songs all at the same time some not even close to being in tune, Then it's sales person guitar hero taking the guitar away from you to show off their chops. Or you've got an audience and you're expected to perform which takes away from really listening to the guitar.

 

Youtube is only slightly better. The first thing one has to do is close your eyes while listening. You are either drawn to the physical performance (watching someone play as opposed to just listening) or the audio.  Audio can be tricky as well. If the guitarist is mediocre and you aren't liking the performance you may feel like it's the guitar for your lack of enjoyment. Conversely if they are really really playing well and super fast your may be concentrating on the performance and not listening to the tone enough.  Even then you still have to consider the amp / effects etc. 

It's hard but not impossible to screen out this stuff to get to the good stuff.  Usually I'll have to endure a youtube video a few times before I can settle in to "is this the sound that I want?"

 

It's funny you mention Godin.  I used to be a huge fan of them. Still own three Godin guitars (but not the jazz guitars) As much as I was in love with the looks and liked some of the video's I just could not get into playing the godin jazz boxes to save my life.  I really wanted to fall in love with the tone.  But like you when I didn't love it I walked away.

 

As for the Eddie Durham's I love em to tears but I really have been looking for "the great affordable jazz" guitars for years and years before buying.

Yup I know a lot about how a guitar should play by the specs but I combine it with lots and lots of research.

[Rudi]

That Times Square Shop vid: It's the worst jam I've ever seen!

 

The worst thing to do is allow yourself to compete with the salesperson. Or maybe there is. I've seen people so intimidated that they basically throw a lot of questions at the salesman that add up to 'Is this any good?' (why yes, its great!). 'Do you think someone like me should buy it?' (certainly! If you really cant afford a HellDemon Stratocruiser that is...).

 

Seriously. I know what you mean, but the shops I've been to are not nearly so bad. You will usually get a booth to play in.

 

If its an expensive model & a staff person has to be present, thats fine. He can do his little showoff piece and then when he hands it to me I will often just hand it straight back because of something little thing that doesnt sound or feel right. This only takes a few seconds. Maybe 3 to 6 seconds tops. I reject most of the guitars I try that quickly.

 

If I do eventually handle something that takes my interest he can sit and watch me carefully play & analyse each note on each string chromatically from top to bottom. Then bend strings (both directions if possible) on maybe 60% of all notes from top to bottom. Then I will re-check intonation where it sounds off. Something always sounds off. At this stage I'm figuring out if its something that can be corrected or not. If not, can I live with it?

 

Then volume off. Checking tuners, hardware, pickups, nut saddle adjustements, neck straightness/relief. Listen to it acousticaly with an ear to the body. Listening for odd vibrations of loose nuts, wiring etc. Sometimes, I may ask for some some adjustment to saddle or truss rod before continuing. I've not been refused yet. If so, I will then have to repeat the whole procedure again.

 

If the guitar makes it this far (50% chance?):

Then I will pay closer attention to sound & tone. Ensure all strings maintain proportional volume at all tone & amp EQ settings.

 

Tone quality any good? This assessment has been going on all along but now its dedicated attention to find usable & pleasant tones. This is the part where a decision is pretty much made.

 

Only after this sort of inspection, will I play any music at all. I will play aggressively (especially on acoustics). I will play softly. Then just play for enjoyment.

 

If I'm not enjoying the experience its usually because something is still lacking. If I do enjoy it, I will quickly forget about the guitar. That is when I know I want it. I shouldnt be analysing the guitar when I'm playing properly, I just need to enjoy it enough to want to keep playing.

 

For the sucessful candidate, the inspection takes about 25 to 35 minutes.

[Rudi]

Oh, I wont normally use much if any gain either.

I dont see how you can judge anything with distortion going on.

 

Will it sound ok with distortion? If it passes the clean test, yes. Anything would.

[TapperMike]

Yes,  All Gibsons that show the gibson brand name are made in the USA

 

What makes them better today has to do with technology and trade craft.  I have an acquaintance who works for gibson. The bodies are all CNC made now which has exact tolerances for cutting that can't be duplicated even by the best of craftsmanship. Two of the most unique things have to do with the finishing process for the bodies

 

 

The plex machines that figure out the precise best height for the frets with tension on them isn't cheap by any measure. No one in the industry uses it.  The care and the commitment for the paint + finish process including waiting for the paint / finish to dry properly rather then heat treat or other means is also quite unique.

[Rudi]

I imagine all solid bodies are CNC routed now.

I used to operate & program CNC milling machines myself once. I enjoyed it too. I still work in a sort of support role with them now.

I never cut wood on them though.

 

The PLEK m/c: I have heard of this from Gibson blurb. It seems a remarkable bit if kit. If its a Gibson copyright then maybe no-one else can use it. I'm still curious to know more about how it works. I imagine its much like a multi-axis CMM (co-ordinate measuring m/c) with software to calculate tension based on the measured parameters.

 

It probably isnt used on Epiphones then.

 

Wiki says that the non-Gibson copy Epis are built to a higher standard (the Wiltshire / Wildkat ETC). Maybe they could be?

 

I'll take a closer look at Gibson Production method vids. There seem to be more available based on the link you gave.

[TapperMike]

I've never liked Epiphone solid bodies or jazz boxes, Though I do like some of their acoustics.  Even the best of epi-175 premiums always miss the boat.  The tops are too thick and it muddies up the sound to my ears.

 

The solid body epiphones from Samick in korea fair better then made elsewhere.  The Peerless made jazz bodies also fair better then elsewhere.  The rest is specs.  Gibson hands over specs as to grade of wood, type of wood, design and pick up specs to the builder company and the company complies.  Usually if the price point rises or quality falls the brand name will go shopping somewhere else.  That's what happened with Cort and Samick. The prices rose so they outsourced production to china and india. Many brand names decided they didn't want to pay Cort or Samick to act as middle men so they sought out builders in other parts of asia.  Peerless on the other hand always did production in Korea and holds the highest standards in the industry. That's why not only are Peerless brand guitars considered an industry standard for jazz guitars but also why many "mid line" ($1,00~2000) jazz guitars are still made by peerless.  

 

Sometimes one gets a really good guitar out of China and sometimes not so much. Brand names have taken it upon themselves to put QC inspectors in China to stop the sloppy workmanship or cheap hardware from entering markets.  As a result many "fake" guitars have been dropped on the unsuspecting public.

http://thehub.musiciansfriend.com/bits/feds-seize-over-185-counterfeit-guitars-in-nj

 

And sometimes brand names have been caught with their hand in the cookie jar. EVH left kramer after rumours of his signature guitar being made overseas when he specified that they were to be made in the U.S.  He went to Ernie Ball /Music Man and US production couldn't keep up with sales.

EB offshored the work to china.  The guitars weren't near spec on the wood grades and pickups and everything else.  EVH pulled all association from MM as a result. Meanwhile a lot of people got these really badly made guitars from MM and... the chinese manufacturer released the same instrument in conjunction with EB as  "OLP" MM1  I had an OLP MM1 and it was pure crap.  Many retailers made slight upgrades to the guitar and sold the guitars as EVH Music Man guitars.  They replaced the stickers and replaced some of the hardware.  

http://dinosaurrockguitar.com/forum/index.php?topic=2408.10;wap2

 

What's funny about Ed Roman (now deceased)  Is that he was the dirtiest dealer in the industry

http://www.edroman.com/

 

He had a huge store where he sold both other brand name guitars and his own.  However He was caught several times pawning off very expensive fakes.  He was also quick to dish the dirt on other famous fakes.

 

Everything you read on Ed Roman's rant page has to be checked, rechecked and checked again.  He's great at lying. Although sometimes he'll put some real gems of truth in there.. http://www.edroman.com/rants.htm It's sad but I've got to say I'm more guitar industry saavy from reading his stuff and then double checking the facts afterwards.  It's also a sad statement about the guitar industry in general.

[Rudi]

One reason I asked about USA made Gibsons was as a result of hearing stuff such as this expose on ghost building by Scott Grove.

It s not the only source, but its features the most detail. He mentions Ed Roman a lot.

 

I dont endorse or believe everything I hear from Scott Grove but he has taught me a few things, so I'm glad he's out there. I could say the same about Rich Menga who is always interesting to read despite an obsessional & occasionally patronising style. He is dedicated to affordable guitars too.

http://menga.net/

 

Epiphones: I want to like Epiphones. I havent quite succeeded yet. They are the eternal paid underdog to Gibson and yet have some impressive innovations that Gibson have either distanced themslelves from or just not thought impressive enough to warrant a Gibson badge (yet?).

 

eg: This Les Paul Ultra has a lot in common with the higher end Godins, with stereo & USB outputs and blending mag PUs with hidden transducer PUs for advance tonal options.

http://www.epiphone.com/Products/Les-Paul/Les-Paul-Ultra-III.aspx

Edited March 15, 2015 by Rudi

[TapperMike]

Yeah, I used to be a big fan of Godin. But they don't sound near the same as they used to.  One thing to note about Godin. It's cheaper to manufacture in the US then Canada.  Godin operates a factory in upstate New York. and the more expensive models are made north of the border.  I'm not arguing build quality. Wherever you get a Godin from tt's going to be a top grade instrument. Good hardware, quality woods well constructed.

They are in deed well built guitars but that doesn't mean they all magically sound good to my ears. As you experienced with the Godin jazz box. Looks the part doesn't play the part. It's a personal taste issue.  Regarding USB Godin got smart and moved away from Roland 13 pin systems for their SA (synth access) models.  They now use Fishman Triple Play

 

 

Most of what Scott Grove presents is true. Some of what Scott Grove presents is out of date. Yes the warehouse did flood. a warehouse is not a factory. Even when a factory floods depending on the damage it can still reopen rather quickly.  

 

When Ken Parker owned parker guitars they were all made in PA. When he sold the company Washburn made all the neck thru's in Illinois. Shortyly thereafter they farmed out "P" guitars to Cort in Korea. "P" actually should stand for imPort.  When they expanded to American made bolt in goutars they used Godin's factory in Upstate New York.  My "P44' was made in Korea by Cort.  Neither Cort nor Samick produce guitars in Korea. It's all farmed out to india, indonesia and china.. 

 

For a time Gibson had Epiphones produced by Samick.  At that time Samick produced something very similar to the shape / tone of a Les Paul. It's a fastback.  I own one.  Gibson ordered Samick to stop producing fastbacks because they were a direct competitor to epi's build in the same factory. The Epi's had/have a thinner lower grade of wood top then Gibson LP's and Samicks. They don't sound as good. Samick complied with stopping production but Gibson still pulled epiphone production out of samick and went somewhere else.  As a result Samick went on to produce another LP clone that was shaped more like a Les Paul. called the avion.

 

I have one of these fastbacks

 

Even with all that being said... I still contend that even non custom shop gibsons brand made by gibson are still the highest quality of gibsons ever made.  Is it worth the markup they attach to the prices of the guitar?  Maybe not.   You and I aren't rich and thus not given to the excess of wealth. I worked in an affluent city where the high school kids would drive to work in Merc's and Beamers. Thier parents drove jaguars and volvo's. With that type of wealth best is always equated with price.  Status means not just having money but showing it.  There are plenty of upper middle class and millionaires in the world to buy expensive things and,,,There are plenty of companies to cater to them and feed the ego.

Edited March 16, 2015 by TapperMike

[TapperMike]

Watched that video for the epiphone Les Paul Ultra-III

Impressive.  I'm mostly impressed with the balancing of levels between the humbuckers and the "nano-mag"  When using piezo pickups and magnetics there is a huge level difference between a powered piezo and a passive magnetic.  Parker uses a voltage regulator to bring them into similar range.

[Rudi]

Since posting I've realised they produce an Ultra version of the 339. 

http://www.epiphone.com/Products/Archtop/Ultra-339.aspx 

 

If the Ultra had coil tapping it would be better still. 

I use the split coil settings on the Deuce almost exclusively. 

 

I did briefly consider a 339 before being swayed by the Deuce. The video on the link features both the Ultra & the Pro. Rob Chapman brings lovely sounds out of both. Both have ProBucker PUs. They are supposed to be an improvement over the Alnico Classic Pros Epi were fitting. 

 

There is also a cheaper P90 version, but I dont know what they really sound like.

 

I've seen an Epi Casino Coupe side by side a 339 and the shape is identical. The Casino Coupe is only different in that it has a tailpiece & block inlays. It also comes with P90s. 

Edited March 16, 2015 by Rudi

[Rudi]

Re: The Samick Fastback. Is that a full size solid, or it it thinner or chambered? 

[Rudi]

The 339 ultra link seems dodgy. It does work, but you may have to paste it into the browser direct.