What makes a good collaborator?

[Vara La Fey]

So what makes a good collaborator?

 

I ask because apparently I'm not. But I'd like to be.

 

My situation: I'm not an experienced collabber. Technically I suppose I'm theoretically kind of a multi-instrumentalist, I guess. I play some guitar, some keys, competent on bass for pop and most hard rock (not necessarily metal , and def not jazz or prog) - but I'm only good on drums. I write music and lyrics, and I do everything down to the fx. When i get an idea, I tend to get a large spectrum of it: the lyric content, and lyric feel, the word imagery, the music genre or sub-genre, sometimes even down to instrument tones. Of course I don't get most of the details right away (and sometimes never), but I get a fairly complete overall picture of where I want the whole thing to go. I get its personality. Then I have to rise to the occasion and make it real.

 

Aaaand it seems I also do this when collabbing. I tend to take over because it's my responsibility to bring my idea to life. And yes, I definitely think I know what I'm doing. Obviously the jury is still out on whether I actually even have half a clue, but I always try my best.

 

Collab #1 fizzled. Part of that was technical delays on my end, but the initial writer eventually decided to return to a version of his original draft, and maybe shouldn't have offered his idea as a collab in the first place. Maybe. I dunno.

 

The 2nd is an EDM song, which I'm very new to, and my collabber is better at it than I am, but completely missed the musical feel of the early draft lyrics I sent - maybe partly because I hadn't captured that feel in those early lyrics anyway, and partly because the subject matter and the target audience aren't things he can relate to personally. We were both very upfront about that before jumping in. So I sent an early draft version of the whole thing, and he kept bowing out, and eventually said I should send him my complete version and he'd like to help me produce it. That's great, but as a writing collab, I'd call it a fizzle.

 

Collab #3 was some very nice pieces of music from one writer, and a very nice lyric idea from another. Just words here and music there. I warned them I was getting serious ideas for the whole thing, and would prolly try to take over. They said to go for it. So I arranged the music into what I'll swear on a copy of Atlas Shrugged is meant to be the verses, chorus and bridge. This required significant lyric rewrite, so I also wrote new lyrics with the feel and imagery I told them upfront I had in mind. The music writer seems to be happy, but the lyricist understandably feels left out. I used as much of the original lyric as I could make work, which turned out to be just the overall idea, the title, and the bridge (which I fleshed out and re-paced). So this hasn't fizzled, but if an initial writer is unhappy, I can't call it a success.
 

These are all good and talented people (and I've found them all on these critique sites). I've been happy to have a chance to work with them. But the fizzle rate is making me seriously consider abandoning collaboration altogether. Which I really don't want to do.  :-(

 

So WTH?? Am I just one of those people no one can write with?

 

[Pahchisme Plaid]

Going by what you yourself have written here, Vara.  I think the issue with you collaborating is that you sound like you can't or won't let go of complete control.  When collaborating, that can be a problem.  The whole idea of collaborating is to bring in new ideas and sounds and some freshness, (and quite frankly, there's lots to learn through collabs) and to work WITH someone who also wants to express things how they envision them or can carry them out. Their ideas are just as important to them often as yours are to you.  You may have to release control of a few of your ideas and/or they may have to release control of a few ideas.  If no one is willing to do that, may as well complete the song alone.  

 

From the perspective of someone who writes lyrics.  I can say releasing that control (for me) was much harder in the beginning, but when you see where it CAN go when you do, it makes all the difference.  Its a bit easier now.   I'm not saying that if it really doesn't sound good or is completely off from the original intention of the song, that you must accept that, but rather that there are elements others can bring to a song that will greatly improve its impact if you select your collaborators carefully and allow them their area of expertise.  How different people express themselves than each other in collaborative works can truly keep everything from sounding the same listeners may have learned to expect.  That keeps things fresh. 

 

Also, as a lyric writer, I've encountered situations where the music put to a lyric of mine completely changed how it came across and what the original intention was.  When you are a writer, there are times when those changes can make you feel as though that's not what you wanted to say/the intent and you don't want your lyrics associated that way or to have a song that comes across that way associated with your name.  It can feel like your song has been hi-jacked.

 

Lastly, you WANT an engaged collaborator, not attract collaborators that are going to ride your shirt-tails.  I might suggest that when someone wants to be engaged more than making a few tweaks, you could possibly have a gem.  You don't want to throw that away that potential.  Recognize the collaborator strengths and give them the reins in those areas.  

[Andy235]

Sometimes a good collaborator is someone who sees eye to eye with you. Sometimes it is someone who is very different, like Lennon and McCartney (also, their collaboration was often more of a competition---many Lennon/McCartney songs were primarily written by one or the other or with only some collaboration in order to finish the song off---but they often were driven to produce better material when one of them came in with a top notch song idea). Sometimes it is when you have a dedicated lyricist and a dedicated music writer, other times it is good when the lines are blurred. I think it comes down to chemistry, patience and talent to collaborate. But many great collaborations had radically different chemistry.

[SongWriterJoe]

Someone who is willing to work on a project as much as I do.   Someone who does not expect you to do all the work, yet claim all the credit.  Someone who has *real* talent and makes a good 'fit'.  

 

Am I asking too much????

[TCgypsy]

Someone who showers me with cash and jewels! 

 

In all seriousness, the best collaborators are someone you just gel with. Sometimes (rarely) you meet someone who just 'fits' with enough in common, yet brings some skills to the table that are different and compliment your skills and tendencies. My ex-band mate that I used to tour with was the one I remember most. We could "finish each other's sentences" musically, and it made the songwriting process a joy.

 

So, I agree with Joe, that 'good' fit is a requirement, and a great fit is a blessing.

 

Peace,

TC

[SongWriterJoe]

On 7/21/2017 at 1:06 PM, Vara La Fey said:

So what makes a good collaborator?

 

I ask because apparently I'm not. But I'd like to be.

 

My situation: I'm not an experienced collabber. Technically I suppose I'm theoretically kind of a multi-instrumentalist, I guess. I play some guitar, some keys, competent on bass for pop and most hard rock (not necessarily metal , and def not jazz or prog) - but I'm only good on drums. I write music and lyrics, and I do everything down to the fx. When i get an idea, I tend to get a large spectrum of it: the lyric content, and lyric feel, the word imagery, the music genre or sub-genre, sometimes even down to instrument tones. Of course I don't get most of the details right away (and sometimes never), but I get a fairly complete overall picture of where I want the whole thing to go. I get its personality. Then I have to rise to the occasion and make it real.

 

Aaaand it seems I also do this when collabbing. I tend to take over because it's my responsibility to bring my idea to life. And yes, I definitely think I know what I'm doing. Obviously the jury is still out on whether I actually even have half a clue, but I always try my best.

 

Collab #1 fizzled. Part of that was technical delays on my end, but the initial writer eventually decided to return to a version of his original draft, and maybe shouldn't have offered his idea as a collab in the first place. Maybe. I dunno.

 

The 2nd is an EDM song, which I'm very new to, and my collabber is better at it than I am, but completely missed the musical feel of the early draft lyrics I sent - maybe partly because I hadn't captured that feel in those early lyrics anyway, and partly because the subject matter and the target audience aren't things he can relate to personally. We were both very upfront about that before jumping in. So I sent an early draft version of the whole thing, and he kept bowing out, and eventually said I should send him my complete version and he'd like to help me produce it. That's great, but as a writing collab, I'd call it a fizzle.

 

Collab #3 was some very nice pieces of music from one writer, and a very nice lyric idea from another. Just words here and music there. I warned them I was getting serious ideas for the whole thing, and would prolly try to take over. They said to go for it. So I arranged the music into what I'll swear on a copy of Atlas Shrugged is meant to be the verses, chorus and bridge. This required significant lyric rewrite, so I also wrote new lyrics with the feel and imagery I told them upfront I had in mind. The music writer seems to be happy, but the lyricist understandably feels left out. I used as much of the original lyric as I could make work, which turned out to be just the overall idea, the title, and the bridge (which I fleshed out and re-paced). So this hasn't fizzled, but if an initial writer is unhappy, I can't call it a success.
 

These are all good and talented people (and I've found them all on these critique sites). I've been happy to have a chance to work with them. But the fizzle rate is making me seriously consider abandoning collaboration altogether. Which I really don't want to do.  :-(

 

So WTH?? Am I just one of those people no one can write with?

 

In collaboration, the best thing is to see if your cowriter(s) can work out their own issues.   If you've given them that opportunity to do so, and they can't - or won't, you'll need to take the reins.  If they can, you may be pleasantly surprised by what they can come up with.  You might even have a better creative cooperative bonding.  If you're a super control freak gotta have it all your way - all the time, maybe co-writing isn't for you - sorry, I'm honest to a fault about things like this  and "I tells it how I sees it".   If you *do* give it the real 'college try', you may even find yourself learning new things and better ways of doing them.

[DaveKell]

I've had only one "collaborative" experience in the less than a year I've been songwriting. I was playing one or two new songs weekly at a jam session. I'd give everyone a copy to take home to be more familiar with it if they wanted to. At one jam a guy there brought in HIS complete new version of one of the songs I'd recently written and played it. It didn't get anywhere near the response it did from my version the week before, but I did like a new direction he took it in. So, I took home his lyrics and rewrote it as a combination of the two. I was infinitely more pleased with what I ended up with and so was everybody at the jam when I played it at the next one. Except for my volunteer collaborator. Over the next few months I was requested to do it a few more times. I said "hey Joe, you helped write this. When are you gonna play it for us" since he's a much better singer than I am. He never has in the nearly a year since it was written. I guess he didn't like me appropriating what he appropriated from me! I usually say before playing it "Joe wrote some of the best lines in this song." I'm still not sure what to make of this "collaboration".

[DaveKell]

Since my first collaboration, I've had one more right here on this forum. I posted a chorus idea I've had for over 30 years that I had no idea what direction to take the verses. Patrick Metheny submitted a verse that immediately sparked an inspiration for me. The song is called No Cold Beer In Heaven. It's from the viewpoint of a recently converted "redneck" who wants to hang onto his old ways. Patrick's verse gave me an immediate idea for a second verse I wrote in all of 5 minutes. After 30 years the song became complete. The melody is similar to Will the Circle Be Unbroken. That song is in public domain however and lines from it have appeared in other songs such as Can the Circle Be Unbroken and Daddy Sang Bass. So I guess my similarity is okay for now. I told Patrick I wanted a 50/50 split of credit since the song might still have gone nowhere without his participation. He said that was a generous offer and tried to decline, saying he might need my help on lyrics someday. I told him my conscience would never let me take full credit for the song. This was an infinitely more profitable collab than the first one I had where a guy completely rewrote a song I had played at a jam. I never asked him to. I combined our two sets of lyrics into a final rewrite of the song and played it at the next jam. He was, to say the least, unimpressed but everybody else was. It still keeps getting requested but in the year since it was written he's never tried to play it once. I still credit him for it by announcing before playing it he wrote some of the best lines in the song. It's called JACK AND SAM and here's the lyrics.

 

At one time the bottle used to own me

Whiskey was always my best friend

 I was the ever lovin' life of the party

 With me there the good times would never end

 

All my friends suddenly began to slip away

I found myself mostly drinkin' alone

I guess the life of the party wasn't fun anymore

And all my party friends just went on home

 

Who needs 'em, let 'em go I began to cry

I'll just have another ice cold beer

Then I heard this little voice comin' through his bedroom door

My little boy's prayer fell on my drunken ear

 

DADDY HAS SOME OLD FRIENDS AND NO TIME FOR ME

I JUST WANT HIM BACK SO HE WILL PLAY WITH ME

WE USED TO BE SO CLOSE I WAS HIS LITTLE MAN

JESUS GIVE MY DADDY BACK TO ME

HE TAKES JACK DANIELS FISHIN', SAM ADAMS BRINGS HIM HOME

AND I'D SURE LIKE TO SEE HIM 'CAUSE I ALWAYS FEEL ALONE

JESUS HE'S A MESS I HOPE YOU SEE

 WILL YOU PLEASE BRING MY DADDY BACK TO MOMMA AND ME

 

He finished his prayer as I leaned against the wall

 With my head in my hands tryin' not to cry

I finally found the courage to say goodbye to it all

God helped me tell Jack and Same goodbye

 

DADDY HAS SOME OLD FRIENDS AND NO TIME FOR ME

I JUST WANT HIM BACK SO HE CAN PLAY WITH ME

JESUS HE'S A MESS I KNOW YOU SEE

WILL YOU PLEASE BRING MY DADDY BACK TO MOMMA AND ME

 

I said Lord thanks for showin' me it's never too late

And bless my boy bless him Lord for finally settin' me straight