DaveKell

Thanks Lisa. You rock!

I’m not sure if this is where I should post this observation. I had a major spine surgery this past Thursday. I spent 5 days hospitalized. I had a conversation with a nurse that led to me telling her I write songs. She unleashed a torrent of criticism on the music industry. Nursing is obviously her second choice of occupation. I found out she was an undiscovered genius and that music professionals are too stupid to understand her. She went to LA at one point in her life to bless the world with her incredible singing voice and world class songwriting. Can you believe nobody thought she was any good? Apparently she, in her estimation, put Whitney Houston and Mariah Carey to shame. I suffered 5 days of her reliving every rejection from know nothing music industry pros. To top it off I always heard her start singing just before entering my room. I politely listened to her demos she loaded into her phone. In almost every instance I was ready for her to shut it off after 15 seconds. I’m not sure if she was under the impression I was already successful in the business and was there for her to audition. She made every mistake I’ve ever read about contacts in business.

For reasons I haven't entirely thought out yet I've always felt like The Rose is possibly one of the greatest songs I've ever heard. I definitely wish I had written it!

I dunno if the poll is closed or I’m too dumb to figure out how it works! This comment is my only recourse apparently. I’m consistently receiving praise for my songwriting from a number of online sites. A radio program host has expressed interest in me being on his show that features songwriters. A recording studio has asked me to submit more videos to them after seeing a few I’ve posted. A very successful, yet now retired songwriter friend in Nashville has said a couple of my songs could “put the right artist on the map”. I’m slowly following through on some of this. My greatest impediment is my lifelong dearth of confidence. I began writing a few years ago at the request of my jam leader who desired new material at our weekly gathering. I quickly built a supportive fan base there. I have extreme reticence at the idea of public performing and no desire whatsoever to attempt to be an entertainer! It’s starting to look like I might soon have a few things recorded by real artists. I’ve written vastly ranging different lyrics I have no earthly idea how they came out of my brain! I’ve surmised I may be possessed by any number of long dead songwriters who are trying to still get their work out. Then again, my status as an elder hippie may indicate some lingering brain chemical anomalies from the 70’s. Who knows?

Lisa the only thing that moderator was correct about is the idea of songs being reworked all the time. I’ve read a few times in music industry publications about how writers always try to do this with each new unique hit that comes out. The song Daddy’s Hands spurred several different versions of the same idea. I guess cashing in on someone else’s success is par for the course. However, the pros know you don’t borrow lines verbatim and steal the original hit song structure. You’re right about the moderator being a fan of this guy. I read tons of praise he heaped on the guy’s submissions. Here’s how it went down. I started posting lyrics there the moderator highly praised as well. So suddenly this guy starts in with comments like he had the same idea for a song. A few of these were so unusual that the coincidence of his claims should have been suspect to anyone. Where he borrowed my lines verbatim in his songs they didn’t fit the flow and made no sense. The moderator however assured him of his brilliance. That’s when I decided the place was a waste of time. This forum is vastly superior.

I'm convinced from further research the guy openly "borrows" lines and song structures he tries to pass off as his own. The amazing thing to me was the support for this the administrator of the forum defended him with. I realize song titles can't be copyrighted. However, to use the title of an old hit and then repeat lines in the same structure is an asinine thing for anybody to do who's supposed to be a serious songwriter with "hundreds of songs in his own style" under his belt. I opted out of participating further in the forum. When I posted lyrics for Lost & Won't Be Found and the guy said "I had that same exact title in mind" I found it way too coincidental because of the unusual nature of the title. Who knows, he might actually write a better version of it than I did although I highly doubt it. His lyrics are by and large way too wordy and are mostly very non entertaining. I have a few people considering recording a few of my songs right now. I doubt that will ever happen for this genius, although I wish him nothing but the best.

Just out of curiosity I decided to see if I could find more examples of this guy “reworking “ song ideas. Took around 5 minutes to find 3 more. No need to look further. I proved my suspicions to myself.

For awhile I participated on another songwriting forum before finding this one, which is vastly superior and more professional. I took note of another “songwriter “ there whose comments on some of my submissions seemed strange to me. For instance, when I posted lyrics to Lost And Won’t Be Found he said he had that same exact title in mind. I thought that would be an incredibly coincidence because of the title was a bit unusual. The other day I was reading a lyric he submitted where he had included a line verbatim from my song I posted called Patches On The Heart. His use of my line made little sense in his lyrics. I posted a comment pointing out his coopting of my wording and quickly got a warning from the moderator who asked if I noticed the “other 45 lines that were not the same as your writing “. I replied that it was a highly unusual phrase but wasn’t a serious issue to me. The moderator said whether it was highly unusual was a subjective thing. A few days later I saw another submission by this guy with a title I remembered from the 90’s called This Is Me Missing You. Originally by James House. This time the highly inferior lyrics to the original copied how the title was repeated verbatim after verses in the song. I again made comments about the guy using lines verbatim written by someone else and how he duplicated parts of the original song structure. A definite pattern was evident with this guy. The immediate response from the moderator was a warning of my impending bouncing from the forum. He told me to immediately stop the plagiarizing accusations, which is a word I never used. He then said there are only so many words available to us to use and that reworking song ideas is something we all do. He informed me this guy had submitted hundreds of songs through the years and had his own identifiable style. He advised me to rethink my comments. Lastly, I asked that everything I had ever submitted be deleted and my membership from the forum be ended. I said reworking a song idea shouldn’t allow for copying lines from the original and a songwriting forum moderator should know that. I pointed out they’re probably lucky I didn’t research more of his submissions. Here’s my question to you all here, was I wrong in my observations?

I have a ritual of sorts I follow when writing. I have a beautiful custom made wood clipboard and I use light blue lined graph paper with it. The only pen I’ll use is a Paper Mate Inkgel. The graph paper makes it easy to visually grasp the syllable count and line length as I write. If either the clipboard or Paper Mate pen disappeared, I wouldn’t be able to write until they were found. After the song has firmly been established in my conscious mind, I sing it over and over to myself a few days and figure out any editing needed. I then go to the computer to type it up and print out for the next jam. By now I have the melody firmly in my mind and finding it on the guitar is relatively painless.

I began writing songs about two years ago after joining a weekly jam session heavily populated with octogenarians. I quickly learned their repertoire was mostly ancient country. Even though I’m a classic 70’s rock guy, I grew up hearing the songs they played and had a lot of fun getting into them at the jam. The leader of the jam proposed that someone should try writing some new songs for everyone to learn. I took up the challenge and since then, as far as I can tell, I’ve been possessed by the spirit of a country songwriter from long ago! I introduce my songs as “another one they forgot to write 50 years ago “. I’m amazed and baffled at the same time by how natural this genre feels to me. Even more amazing is the phenomenal response most of my songs get, at the jam, an open mic I regularly attend and from a now retired but formerly very successful Nashville songwriter friend. It’s too late to try and stop... I’m totally obsessed with this and it’s as important to me as breathing.

Excellent response. Thanks.

I have an issue that's been on my mind since joining this forum. As an example, one of the songs I posted awhile back, another member suggested a change to the chorus. I tried the revised version out at the next weekly jam session and it worked fabulously. Suddenly, my conscience says I had a co-writer. In another instance, someone contributed a perfectly fitting entire first verse to a chorus idea I'd been kicking around a full 3 decades. That suddenly made it possible for me to write another verse and I ended up with yet another song that went over splendidly at my jam and songwriter night. Without that input, I might have taken that chorus idea to my grave. I'm only concerned about this because of some incredible inroads the Universe is making for me into getting a song cut by someone. Suppose they decide to record a song that I employed an easily discovered bit of help with online? I told the guy who gave me the entire first verse that I considered him to be a full 50% contributor. His response was along the lines of "thanks, not necessary I might need your help someday". I can see where that attitude could change if they ever heard the song on the radio! By the way, I've made an offer once before to another person of a 50% credit. My friend in Nashville with an impressive resume of artists who've recorded his song told me not to ever do that. He said usually if I let the person who contributed some help ask for a percentage of credit they'll usually ask for far less than my offer. I'd rather err on the side of generosity. Has this ever been an actual issue on this forum?

Hopefully this will suffice for a suitable section of the forum to post this. On Dec. 17th I underwent a 9 hour back surgery to fuse my lumbar spine and implant rods, the final outcome of a car accident in June of last year. I've previously had 18 major surgeries over a number of years but never experienced a grueling recovery such as I am now. I was released to come home from hospital on Christmas Eve and went through the holidays in unimaginable pain. My wife acquired a 65 year old toddler to care for with all the things she has to do for me. I'm in a full torso back brace for 2 months that makes guitar playing impossible. Songwriting ain't happenin' with an undercurrent of pain uppermost in mind. Anyway, I am reaching some recovery milestones, albeit at a snail's pace. I hope very soon to be participating here again.

Looking back, nearly everything I've written has told a story. I'm so fervently stuck in the Country vein that I can't help it. I guess it's what was imprinted in my brain when as a child I used to ride my bike a mile in the rural area where I grew up to a truck stop owned by two sisters from Tennessee. I hung around in there letting the waitresses buy me Cokes and listening to the jukebox play what is now considered to be ancient country gold. This was in northern Indiana in the early 60's. When I began attending a weekly jam in Texas a little over a year ago I was once asked "being obviously a yankee, how is it you know all these songs we play?". I said "I grew up listening to them one nickel at a time". I write songs now I describe as "ones they forgot to write 50 years ago." It's all that flows effortlessly out of me. Now, I just have to hope they come back in vogue in my remaining lifetime!

I have a mobile app for songwriting. I often take it to weekend craft fairs where I sell my hand lettered interior decor signs. Been a professional signpainter for over 40 years. My "app" is a cool wood clipboard I bought from a woodworker vendor at a craft fair a year ago. I have graph paper on it with faint blue grid lines. It's the only way I can write songs. I swear the grid helps me see the balance of words in a line of lyrics. My rhyming dictionary resides deep in my brain where other programming resides from my Comparative Literature major at Indiana University long ago. I'm in no way disparaging the approach you are taking. For me though, my brain and hand/eye coordination with a pen are the only tools I can envision for the pursuit. I'm seeing already though how my grandkids will exist in a world where everything they do will involve a computer. Many schools have abandoned teaching cursive writing. Maybe by the year 2500 a box of handwritten letters will be appraised on Antiques Roadshow for an astronomical sum! Good luck with your endeavors however. You couldn't have found a more helpful community than resides here.