Talent Vs. Luck

[GuesSs]

19 minutes ago, Richard Tracey said:

 

'Now I feel you are trolling me, because even if you are trying to make a point to go with everything you have said previously, there is no way in hell you can believe that those genres all sound the same to you. There is no one on this planet who would agree with that sentiment.

You don't have to like it lol but that's how i feel. I even said i am sure if i listened to these genres closely and invested a lot of time into it I'm sure i would notice all types of idfferences. But because I don't they all the sound the same to me as a less than casual listener looking it.

[GuesSs]

30 minutes ago, Richard Tracey said:

 

I would not hold any sway on what makes into into the Billboard 100. The thing has been a fix for a very long time, just like it has been in the U.K.

 

Classical and Jazz tend to have their own charts anyway.

 

See I think that is the wrong attitude to have, wanting to be a part of a dangerous lifestyle and feel badass. If they knew the real side of it, not the glorified side, but the part that rips families apart, leaves loved ones without family members and promotes drug use and violence towards women and other gang members, then they might think twice about hero worshipping these characters.

 

Being told something is cool and popular is not the same as it being cool and popular. If your friend told you to jump off a bridge would you do it?

Well go onto itunes, google trends, andything you want you'll see that it's not very popular. It has it's place amongst niche fans but thats it.  Again you are missing the point. Nobody is forcing them to listen to the music or seek it out. They do so on their own because it is intriguing to them. espescially to someone who has not grown up in an urban neighborhood that way of life is intriguing because it is so different that wgat they know.  It's not like you wake up and automatically have rap albums downloaded on your phone, or get in your car and the rap station automatically comes on and you can't change it. It's not being force fed it's what people seek out the most.Ultimately I agree with you. It's sad that most rappers portray a lifestyle they don't actually live and promote it as the only way to be successful. But again it is attractive to people. 

 

People have the ability to control themselves. Most rap songs released this year talk about doing all types of drugs but I have no desire to do them myself. But when it comes on at a party it's fun to go wild to. That's all it is for most people.  It's a lifestyle that looks fun and exciting.  

[MikeRobinson]

Please try to bear in mind that "America's Top 40," a-la Casey Kasem, was ... and very much still is ... an artifact of the broadcast industry.

 

Today, there is no "radio" which determines what you get to hear.  Today, the consumer of music has indeed become empowered to choose ... and to immediately receive the product of their choice.  There is no more "king-maker."  Thus, there really is no more "king."  Today, you, the artist, have a very direct(!) connection with your audience.  And the "cost of goods sold" of the thing that you wish to sell to that audience, is "zero."  If the customer buys it, you make money.  And if not, you're not staring at boxes of unsold vinyl in your garage.

 

- - - 

And, as to the original topic-statement of this thread:  "In my experience, there is no such thing as 'luck.'"

[Richard Tracey]

4 hours ago, MikeRobinson said:

Please try to bear in mind that "America's Top 40," a-la Casey Kasem, was ... and very much still is ... an artifact of the broadcast industry.

 

Today, there is no "radio" which determines what you get to hear.  Today, the consumer of music has indeed become empowered to choose ... and to immediately receive the product of their choice.  There is no more "king-maker."  Thus, there really is no more "king."  Today, you, the artist, have a very direct(!) connection with your audience.  And the "cost of goods sold" of the thing that you wish to sell to that audience, is "zero."  If the customer buys it, you make money.  And if not, you're not staring at boxes of unsold vinyl in your garage.

 

- - - 

And, as to the original topic-statement of this thread:  "In my experience, there is no such thing as 'luck.'"

 

Mike, I'm sorry but I totally disagree with this. Yes we as an individual artist can release our music, but without the support or help of others, we will probably look at no return. There are major artists decrying what is happening to the music industry, as they can see something is wrong. They have been talking about how the choice for the consumer is there, but the vehicle to get it heard isn't there. The big majors still push what they want you to hear. It is everywhere whether you like it or not. I watch a TV programme, the music is dictated by corporates. I watch a film, the music is dictated by corporates, even to the point, which I have mentioned, that the music makes no sense to the film, it is just placed there as someone has paid money for it to be there. They remake classic films, period dramas, into modern takes so they can add a hip hop 'flava'. That is nothing more than pandering and trying to push their product. Sony is one of the worst for this placement. Their films incorporate their artists, to sell their music.

 

If you had only started listening to music. What you see and hear will influence what you think music is. You hear all the time of kids only listening to one style of music growing up and then someone plays them another artist from a different genre and they change what they like. There are people out there championing for other music to get the same chance as the stuff that is popular at the moment, as they feel we are being pushed to like what they think we will like.

 

That is what is wrong with the music industry, they think they know what the consumer wants. They are a bunch of suits who haven't got a clue. They don't know how to fix what has become a serious problem in their industry, so are burrowing their heads in the sand and going with the status quo at the moment (and I don't mean the rock group).

 

For the consumer to be empowered, they first need to know what is out there. Finding it by chance may happen, but the internet is so large with so much music, you really need help to promote it. Now that can take the form of an established blog or artist liking your music, but for the thousands that send their music, maybe only a handful will get that help.

 

What GuesSs is saying he knows of hip hop artists that have gone this route and succeeded. Yes, that might be the case, but there will be thousands of them who are not and in a genre that is already saturated, there may be the next big thing not getting their chance because they are doing something different with the music from the norm.

 

Music sounds predictable and repetitive now as it is safe and the newer consumer seems to want that, or that's what we are told.

 

I am sorry to keep banging the drum about this, but the music industry is not in a good place and it needs to change.

 

I don't care about music charts and haven't since the 80's. I try not to listen to the radio as it plays the same music aver and over again throughout the day and it just angers me (we have a radio in the office and no matter which station you put on it's the same stuff, over and over).

 

I feel music has dumbed down. I heard that new Katy Perry song - Swish Swish Bish - I mean come on, what the hell is that!!!!

 

Give me intelligent music over mind numbing any day of the week

 

[Richard Tracey]

8 hours ago, GuesSs said:

You don't have to like it lol but that's how i feel. I even said i am sure if i listened to these genres closely and invested a lot of time into it I'm sure i would notice all types of idfferences. But because I don't they all the sound the same to me as a less than casual listener looking it.

 

8 hours ago, GuesSs said:

Well go onto itunes, google trends, andything you want you'll see that it's not very popular. It has it's place amongst niche fans but thats it.  Again you are missing the point. Nobody is forcing them to listen to the music or seek it out. They do so on their own because it is intriguing to them. espescially to someone who has not grown up in an urban neighborhood that way of life is intriguing because it is so different that wgat they know.  It's not like you wake up and automatically have rap albums downloaded on your phone, or get in your car and the rap station automatically comes on and you can't change it. It's not being force fed it's what people seek out the most.Ultimately I agree with you. It's sad that most rappers portray a lifestyle they don't actually live and promote it as the only way to be successful. But again it is attractive to people. 

 

People have the ability to control themselves. Most rap songs released this year talk about doing all types of drugs but I have no desire to do them myself. But when it comes on at a party it's fun to go wild to. That's all it is for most people.  It's a lifestyle that looks fun and exciting.  

 

Okay, I'm going to draw a line in the sand, as I am sure others are getting fed up with you and I banging on about something we are never going to agree or see eye to eye on.

 

First, the genres you mentioned are so diverse that to any casual listener will not sound anything remotely the same, so I can't hold much stock in anything else you have to say. You appear to like a Brand more than what their music is like. That is fine for you, but that belittles what other artists are trying to achieve. It should be and always should be about the music.

 

I am not missing the point, I know what you are saying about it is up to the consumer to choose, but that is where it all falls down. If a consumer doesn't know there is a choice, they will not seek it out. I have mentioned before, you are younger than me, I grew up with a diverse range of music to listen to, so my taste are eclectic, but that choice is now hidden away.

 

Even iTunes hides it away, they push on the main page what they will be receiving money to push, with maybe an obscure artist to make it look fair, but you have to go into each individual genre tab to try and find what you are looking for. The front page is like them telling us who we should like and listen to, that is where the majority of consumers will get their listening habits from. They aren't clued up enough, or motivated enough to go searching. They are not really music fans, they just want something to listen to, almost background music and this really ties in with what you have been saying. You think of the music as secondary to the artists, because that is what is being pushed, what I am saying is, if we leave that too long, we will end up with such mediocrity, that new consumers will think that is what music is.

 

We need music in our lives, it can have such an impact, it can dictate the kind of day we have, who we become, moments that we will never forget as we are reminded each time we hear certain songs. They stimulate our imagination, make us laugh and cry, make us feel.

 

There are a few hip hop artists like other genres and incorporate that in their music. Look into what they like, which samples they are using, you might find there are countless other possibilities out there for you to like. Don't be so blinkered.

 

Just because you listen to that music and don't feel the urge to do the things they talk about in their lyrics, doesn't mean it doesn't influence how others feel, or act. We should never glorify drug use or violence in any way. 

 

 

I just noted someone retweeted from John Luongo, who is a legendary DJ/Music Producer/Mixer - you might noice some parallels with what I have been saying:

 

'Music is as sterile as it's ever been. Unless we allow influences of all music to enter the room we're going to make stale lifeless product!' - John Loungo 25/08/2017

 

[GuesSs]

4 hours ago, Richard Tracey said:

 

 

Okay, I'm going to draw a line in the sand, as I am sure others are getting fed up with you and I banging on about something we are never going to agree or see eye to eye on.

 

First, the genres you mentioned are so diverse that to any casual listener will not sound anything remotely the same, so I can't hold much stock in anything else you have to say. You appear to like a Brand more than what their music is like. That is fine for you, but that belittles what other artists are trying to achieve. It should be and always should be about the music.

 

I am not missing the point, I know what you are saying about it is up to the consumer to choose, but that is where it all falls down. If a consumer doesn't know there is a choice, they will not seek it out. I have mentioned before, you are younger than me, I grew up with a diverse range of music to listen to, so my taste are eclectic, but that choice is now hidden away.

 

Even iTunes hides it away, they push on the main page what they will be receiving money to push, with maybe an obscure artist to make it look fair, but you have to go into each individual genre tab to try and find what you are looking for. The front page is like them telling us who we should like and listen to, that is where the majority of consumers will get their listening habits from. They aren't clued up enough, or motivated enough to go searching. They are not really music fans, they just want something to listen to, almost background music and this really ties in with what you have been saying. You think of the music as secondary to the artists, because that is what is being pushed, what I am saying is, if we leave that too long, we will end up with such mediocrity, that new consumers will think that is what music is.

 

We need music in our lives, it can have such an impact, it can dictate the kind of day we have, who we become, moments that we will never forget as we are reminded each time we hear certain songs. They stimulate our imagination, make us laugh and cry, make us feel.

 

There are a few hip hop artists like other genres and incorporate that in their music. Look into what they like, which samples they are using, you might find there are countless other possibilities out there for you to like. Don't be so blinkered.

 

Just because you listen to that music and don't feel the urge to do the things they talk about in their lyrics, doesn't mean it doesn't influence how others feel, or act. We should never glorify drug use or violence in any way. 

 

 

I just noted someone retweeted from John Luongo, who is a legendary DJ/Music Producer/Mixer - you might noice some parallels with what I have been saying:

 

'Music is as sterile as it's ever been. Unless we allow influences of all music to enter the room we're going to make stale lifeless product!' - John Loungo 25/08/2017

 

Smh i tried. This will be my final statement regarding our debate. For one idk why it strikes a nerve with you that i think those most country,jazz, classical music, Reggae etc sounds the same.  I even said not once, not twice,  but now THREE times i am sure if I paid attention to these genres and really put in time ti listen to them I'd notice the nuance.  For now I don't. Can't make it any simpler than that. 

 

I never said I value brand more than music I just understand  reality.  And the reality is it's the music BUSINESS.  There are people who make phenomal music but don't but in nearly as much effort promoting, marketing, and making their brand appealing.  They just expect that because the music is good it will move on it's own and be upset when someone who's music is awful gets more shine.   It's sad that it's not all based around talent and quality of music but that's the reality.  Again it's the music BUSINESS. 50/50. You gotta put just as much passion and effort into making you as artist seem just as appealing as your music. 

 

You are still stuck in the 70s and the 80s. Like the internet exists, its a thing,  it's here lol.  If anything the internet has made it easier for people to find new music they would have never heard otherwise. Back then like what Mike said you had kingmakers. You had people deciding what was hot. Now the power in the consumers hands. Nobody these days is turning to the radio and music statioms on tv to find new music. People go online to find it. People follow their favorite artist on twitter and Instagram and keep up with them that way. They subscribe to their YouTube channel to see when they have a new music video up.  THEY KEEP UP WITH AND FOLLOW WHO THEY WANT TO KEEP UP AND FOLLOW WITH.  If a consumer is tired of mainstream music and wants to hear more blues and folk guess what? They simply go to thay section and listen. Or they go online listen. Nobody just sits their thinking that whatever music is on the front page is all that exists  lmao. Maybe you feel that way because you grew up in a time where consumers had less power.

 

Surely you don't want into a bookstore and think derrrrrrrrrp all I see is twilight and Hunger games up front i guess this is all i can buy. No. If you came in for a poetry book you walk to the poetry section and look around there. It doesn't matter what is promoted up front. Same with iTunes. Yes any time Drake,Katy perry, Rihanna, Taylor Swift,  Beyonce,  or Adele drops an album it will of course be on front page. But nobody with a functioning brain thinks that they are limited to only front page music. Everyone is well aware there is all types of music out there

 

I think of music as not secondary to the artist but on the same page.  Again this isn't the 80s. Back then if you liked an artidt and wanted to know more about them you had to wait dor a magazine interview or catch it on tv. Now artist can easily connect with fans. They can live stream and answer any of their questions and have real conversations with them.  Fans like feeling connected with their favorite artist. The music is not enough you need to do more to retain attention. Most music consumers are casual so they don't care if someone wrote the lyrics themselves or had someone else write it for them,  they don't care what song tbe artist sampled, they don't care if you used all loops and presets to make the beat.  You as a music maker may be very passionate about that but most fans won't share that same level of passion.  They just want something nice to listen to while they drive, read, work out, party,  smoke etc.

 

Most people don't feel the urge to do things they hear in hip hop music. Most people can watch a movie about a bank robbery and not go rob a bank. Most people can playa game like grand theft auto and not get in their car and start running people over.  You may not like that violencr is glorified but most people do. Hip hop had a brand that is appealing and fun. EDM has a brand that is a appealing and fun. Otjer genres don't have the same mass appeal  (key word mass appeal as in core fans of the music will always love it). You know why that is? Because their artist and those brands don't  represent things that draw people in. Other genres and artist probably have better quality music. But most casual listeners aren't going to be motivated to check it out because it takes more than just good music to get and keep people's attention. Any genre or artist can get the same shine as hip hop or any rapper. They just need to devote time in making themselves as an artist just as appealing as the music

 

 

[Richard Tracey]

4 hours ago, tunesmithth said:

Notice how quickly I distanced myself from this conversation?

Discussions like this are tremendous for generating board activity, but they rarely die a graceful death.

Remember guys...when you boil it all down, it's just talk on the internet.

Nobody's curing' Cancer here  

 

 

 

Yeah, it deviated quickly from the point I was trying to make.

[MonoStone]

On 26 August 2017 at 2:01 PM, GuesSs said:

They just expect that because the music is good it will move on it's own and be upset when someone who's music is awful gets more shine.   It's sad that it's not all based around talent and quality of music but that's the reality.  Again it's the music BUSINESS. 50/50. You gotta put just as much passion and effort into making you as artist seem just as appealing as your music. 

 

Totally agree with that... kind of what I've been harping on about on here for some time. No one, including me, should think that a good song or good recording is all it takes...or even that making a website and a Facebook page is all it takes... moving up from just 'hobbyist' to an artist in search of real fans, record industry attention and a career in music is a BIG move that takes a lot of time, effort, dedication and putting yourself out there where it's really not always comfortable for the average person to be.... and that's one reason why it's best to do it while you're young (not that you can't do it at any age).

 

It's just the way it is, and always has been. 

 

Promoting yourself is rarely covered on here because most of us just don't really do it. A few do and they also either do or have been out there performing and courting attention from fans and reviewers and so on. I say it this way because sometimes an image is just YOU... people shouldn't assume that to be appealing you always have to be something all glamorous or dangerous or whatever. Depends on the genre.... but... my point is you can't make YOU appealing (or unappealing) unless you're out there for people to see as well as hear. And that said... sadly whether you're just you or done up in some way, you do have to have people find you appealing/interesting and not too dull and ordinary or too Butlins or whatever.

 

Said it before and I'll say it again...if you're not willing to be out there as an entertainer (and that doesn't always mean in a happy shiny pop way) then you can't expect to be selling music or gaining any significant number of fans. NOT that everyone should want that.... but if you do want that...  gotta be realistic.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[starise]

 Nothing I can say that hasn't been said. I only tend to put maybe 10% of what I think into action. The good side of that is I think a lot, so 10% isn't too shabby. If I had done the other 90% I would probably be dead now, so I think it pays to think or discuss or whatever you want to call it. If all this talk saves you much needless effort, it's all worth it.

 

Too much of it feels to me like being shoved beside a heavy dude in economy class on a 12 hour flight. Can't wait to get off that plane. 

 

This all has a cyclic nature to it. I guess I've heard it all before so it isn't a fresh kind of thing to me. We were given minds to reason though, so why not reason all of it? I like conclusions that taste good. I'm not sure we'll find one here. John said something once that I think applies well . I'm paraphrasing it some, but it was something like this: "As a creative use your creativity in other areas". You can use that tendency to find solutions in other areas. That's only if you really WANT it though. I believe some people want it until they get it, like that girl in elementary school I thought was the cutest thing I had ever seen. 30 years later she looks like a hairless dog.It's amazing what 3000 cans of beer and 40 truckloads of cigarettes will do to you.

 

 I don't really need it.  I'll make an album or two for posterity. I see the odds. I am way past caring if anyone likes me or not. If I throw a chance into the pot and something comes of it, I'll be glad. If not, I'll still be glad.  As I've said many times before, my main ambitions are purely personal and musical. Music is like a medicine to me. 

 

But you dudes, go for it if you want to try. Give it 110% and see where it all goes. Do something, anything that makes sense to you. If that doesn't work, do something else. Then you'll either win the fleeting prize or you'll be just like me, sitting here and feeling ok about attempting a few things , winning a few and not crying about the stuff I didn't win.

[GoldenEars22]

On 8/23/2017 at 2:29 AM, Jenn said:

And if there's going to be coffee

YES! hahahaha.