What is your definition of prog rock?

[lemonstar]

A question that sounds like the kind of debate on local radio designed to generate more heat than light but it was something @ImKeNsaid in passing in the  What are you listening to.. thread where he said "I never really understood what progressive music meant" - I loved the open honesty in that remark. I felt I had an answer, of sorts, straight away but I paused and went away and looked for a definition and, perhaps not suprisingly, found a discussion about it in the Progarchives website - anyone who has been into prog rock will have been on here at some time  - I was firmly a King Crimson and an ELP/Nice fan who took years to open up to Genesis, Yes, Pink Floyd but still, fundamentally - I'm a Fripp/Emerson fan. There's been a lot of water under the bridge since the late 70's and there are so many more recent bands trading under the progressive rock banner (Tool, etc) that I never really got in to.

 

The definitions/discussion in the progarchives probably added a little to my immediate thoughts about what constitutes prog rock - the idea of rock drawing on other genres/influences such as classical/baroque (Emerson) music and jazz (Fripp), for instance (and others - read the full articles at the progarchives site)  - my immediate idea was that the longer duration of many prog rock compositions had been the one practical element that had driven musicians and lyricists to think and work on a different level to those only working on tracks that were typically only 4-5 minutes long  - they were being driven to new levels of invention and ambition - I think it would have been apparent that a drummer, for instance, would have been striving to develop a wider range of fills and use a wider range of styles from a wider sound palette that when playing on a 3 minute song for the charts and I think the same thinking would apply to all the musicians and they'd be taking into account how much repetition the listener would want to handle. I think the longer format also opened the door up to try and narrate more complex stories and more complex musical structures - something closer to symphonies and concertos - where themes or motifs are used to unify a piece. I wondered about, and went searching for the longest track Bob Dylan ever recorded - I found it was Highlands from the 1997 album Time Out Of Mind - the studio version is 16:27 long! It's a pretty slinky walking paced narrative and I think it just about works but I could understand 50% of people thinking it lasts too long given the very repetitive nature of the music - for me, he manages it because of his story telling and his voice and I'm not actually a big fan of Dylan overall. There area few live versions on youtube - here's one.

 

I posted in What are you listening to.. thread  because I'd had a hankering for listening to early King Crimson's drummer Michael Giles (his brother Pete played bass) - I was only thinking how much I missed noticing or appreciating an inventive drummer - the only other drummer that has caught my attention in recent years is the drummer in Dodgy - Stand Upright in a Cool Place (2012) has some drumming that made this the most played album I had that year  - Mathew Priest is hugely un-heralded imho. 

So - any thoughts?

 

pp @Lisa Gates - I mentioned this to you.

[Lisa Gates]

Hi Lemonstar, yes we did have parts of this convo! my late husband was a drummer and I get emotional when I hear a good drummer do a "roll" like my hubby. Music can really bring up emotions!
Lisa

[john]

I've been a Floyd fan for as long as I can remember, and like a good number of other prog bands from Yes to Jethro Tull.

 

For me, prog was always detailed, multi-sectional songs, often containing a number of bridging sections, time signature and tempo changes. They give you the feeling that the song is evolving. That said, some were the exact opposite... an ongoing, evolution with no sections at all. Still, evolution is what gives the songs some sense of progression.

 

They tend to be more experimental in nature and at the psychedelic end of the spectrum that is a pre-requisite with improvisation being an important factor.  Prog touches many genres, from jazz to folk, to rock and metal.

 

So far I've mentioned pretty well everything! lol

 

In essence, I think the progression of timing, key, tempo, even genre, are key features of progressive music, sectional or not, improvised or not, rock or not.

 

Typically song topics are more on the fringes. When prog bands wander into pop, time signature and even tempo changes tend to be removed from the options, leaving the standard 4/4 while most other aspects of prog remain.

 

It's a start!

 

Cheers

 

John

[lemonstar]

Good to get a reply - for a minute I thought I might be the last person on the planet that is not too ashamed to say I liked prog rock (or was around during that 70's era and listening to it) - in the mid-70's my listening was split equally between prog rock (Alan "Fluff" Freeman's Saturday Rock show influence), John Peel's 10-midnight show influence - the punk era, Tangerine Dream and other electronic music (German, French) and African guitar based music (Andy Kershaw's influence) - the irony of listening to both the Sex Pistols and ELP was beyond me at that time.

 

I total agree with your points - I could also have included the "multi-sectional songs, often containing a number of bridging sections, time signature and tempo changes." - and the articles in the prog archives made that idea of influences from the world of jazz, classical, et al. so much clearer. Underneath it it I think the move to much longer pieces that drove this need to develop rock music and for pieces to develop as they unfolded - I don't really know what drove the move to longer pieces though. Recreational drugs(I doubt it), recording studio technology (e.g. multi-tracking) or synthesizers introducing a richer palette or the want to be recognized as more complete artists - or was it just an inevitable evolutionary step driven by disenchantment with the norm?

 

If you have never come across Rachel Flowers - as a prog rock fan - particularly of ELP - she is probably the most amazing musical find I have come across - she is a young girl/woman now with a passion for prog rock - she's blind from birth but a multi-instrumentalist - has played with Dweezil Zappa and many other luminaries - Keith Emerson was a big fan - here she is playing a classic ELP track Trilogy (by ear!) at Keith's place using his original gear - notice she can even play the bass guitar parts with her feet - she is just incredible - there is a film coming out about her - you'll find her covers on soundcloud of King Crimson, Little Feat, Henry Cow, Frank Zappa, all sorts.
Rachel Flowers cover of Trilogy (by ELP)

[john]

Glad to see you mention Rachel. Indeed, her mum Jeanie (herself a good writer and beautiful singer) is a member here. That meant members were lucky to see Rachel develop as an artist from a pretty young age. Although known mainly for playing the keys, she’s a mean guitarist, singer and enthusiastic multi-instrumentalist.

[Gazebo]

I think I was about two years too mentally/ musically immature to "get" prog.  I say immature, as many of my contemporaries really loved Genesis, Yes, ELP etc, but apart from odd tracks I never really connected, and then punk and New Wave happened when I was about 15, so that set my course for a good while.

 

To answer the original question posed, I would echo John - it's experimental without being jazz (as it's too structured) but has unusual time signatures, stretches of form, structure and switches in keys.  It always seems very technical, but particularly with Pink Floyd can be very emotionally expressive in music and lyrics and deceptively simple.

 

Like all forms of music the genre description is restrictive, so there is stuff that I love and dislike as songs or performances.

 

In terms of drummers, one of my personal favourites was Pete de Freitas of Echo and The Bunnymen.  His playing on the Heaven Up Here album is something that always inspires me.

 

As many people have said, every great band has a great drummer....

[Rudi]

1969

[geographyhorse]

I'm a huge Yes/ Genesis fan. I also like the Neo-prog of IQ and the electronic music of Squarepusher. I've also finally warmed up to Tool and Radiohead. I think somebody mentioned Progression, and I believe that holds true. No matter what genre the prog comes, the musicians seem to be pushing the music forward in length, influence and complexity.  Hence, the odd time signatures, quirky song structures, long instrumental passages, and orchestral and/or jazz qualities. What's there not to like? It's a bunch of bands and musicians taking your favorite genres of music and making them awesome. 😄