Different Levels of Music

[Silverwolf941]

This is a video I made about being at different levels of music: 

 

[Cody]

Nice video.  I especially like the applying things bit.  A lot of people seem to "learn" something and get stuck as far as progressing,  feeling either there is nothing else to know, or unwilling to try anything else.  I am sometimes guilty of it as well, but try to keep an open mind even though I feel like I always know what works best for me.   I can pump them out quick, but always have the utmost respect for people that do really take their time to fine tune things.  I don't know what I'd do if I ever "finished" a song........I might just quit 😂

[Silverwolf941]

@VoiceEx Thank you so much for your response! I'm working on integrating more organic sounds to the scorings, as of now there's a couple of projects that I've been committed to having at least 1 to 2 of the instrument themes start from complete scratch in recording midi timings and velocities. I'm hoping to shape the time signatures more around those recorded midis to determine the rhythm. The timpani just started to appeal more to me at the moment being that its dynamic possibilities really could lead the harmonic flow of a song at times as opposed to a pure percussive sound. I really like your idea of even starting from an organic template, at the time being I'd have to improvise, however I can see it being a good starting block to highlight what sounds organic in its raw state. 

[Silverwolf941]

@Cody Thank you for your response, I think what helps keep me humble is to remember that with each project I want to either improve or use a different technique. If the song I wrote before sounds like the last, I wonder if I even wrote something. If we think of a music career as one gradual album it doesn't have to end anytime soon. 

[Silverwolf941]

@fasstrack Thank you for watching my video, it means a lot to me! For someone with 56 years of experience on guitar, my 10 years of practice, especially without theory may seem like nothing. Very reasonably so too, to this current date I've probably had about 2 years of self taught theory practice. I can't say that I'm familiar with all the artists you've named, but I am somewhat familiar with Jimi Hendrix. Guitar is one crazy instrument full of possibilities, some of my favorite guitarists that have inspired me are Michael Hedges and Brushyonestring.

 

As you said good execution is very much required and learning how to do that is its own animal. From compressors, noise gates, pickups and eq's to just pure technique from bridge and neck play can really shape a sound. Any instrument of choice takes a level of time investment and dedication to achieve a desirable sound. As far as being able to play gigs and stuff I've only played a small handful on guitar in my life, but if I keep a certain level of ignorance as to just performing and let whoever shows up stay or not it allows me to really enjoy my craft. To be honest I'm no where near where I want to be even on just a pure sound shaping level. I'm trying to integrate more live recorded sounds into my works.

I agree with the showing of respect of people who've paved the way for us musicians to make it possible and influence us.

 

As for going to college it may be for some people I'm not going to say I for or against it. Depending on what's being studied whether it be mixing and mastering or theory/performing. However college is still a business and to sign up for it, we have to be aware of it's financial impact good or bad. Good in the case we develop our skillset enough to be profitable, but bad if we aren't financially stable. At the end of it all we have to maintain our passion for it. Its an extremely tough business and marketing is an entire subject of its own, I'm just scratching the surface of it.  

 

From your music I can clearly hear the practice and sound between your use of add9 chords, pivot/direct modulations, alternations between neck and bridge pickups. 

[Silverwolf941]

16 hours ago, fasstrack said:

I keep it simple myself: record w/humans, live to 2 track. Write w/pencil and held down sustain pedal, works for me. A student transcribes my stuff to Finale. Me, I'd be clueless and cussin' up a storm. 

 

 And I never use anything but my Godin 5th Ave. Kingpin or more so lately this wonderful 1999 Martin 000-1 small auditorium model with one round hole Seymour Duncan pickup---through an amp. My whole set up with both guitars and amps cost under $2,000.

 

Machines? No? Soul? Si---for ME... 

I really want to start creating more live/organic sounds with future projects. I can't say that I've gotten to the point of writing out the scores yet. To me I'm not sure if it would be easier for me to start with pen and paper, just because it seems like it would be difficult to recreate the fine details of crescendos, diminuendos, blends of staccato/legato or tenuto notes. I haven't even gotten to the point of using woodwinds yet, and that's something that could really elevate a score to the next level. 

 

Hey is the 1999 martin 000-1 small auditorium an acoustic or classical guitar? I was also looking into a guitar I could use for more subtle parts of a song, for either organic rhythm or maybe some flamenco style works. Although thats an entirely different challenge to study on its own. 

 

[Silverwolf941]

@fasstrack I could use an acoustic for some more accented rhythms, a lot of the sound libraries that I use don't quite have the sound I'm looking for when it comes to distinct notes and how I want to alternate between a treble/bassy sound. 

[Silverwolf941]

@fasstrack So far I've only met one trombone player whose said I should have the instruments singable. I've been doing some research and, learned about their F attachment and ability to play in a very organic portamento style.  I definitely agree with you about the actual instruments being able create the best sound in the right environment (acoustically treated rooms). Like I said before though, my sound isn't quite where I want it to be at though with proper dynamic ranges and mixing. Even with the song rendering if it's an mp3 or non lossless file type it ruins the sounds. I think my worst song made so far is "formless" I messed up in daw and shifted the timpani/french horns off and it sounded too syncopated. Also I did the whole arrangement purely sequenced so it took a song that had potential and made it way too boring. Part of the challenge is me not knowing the software enough. Since then I've learned some more about the work flow and I'm hoping my overall sound improves. Although I'm definitely interested in learning the cello as the tonal range of it amazes me along with its percussive capabilities. 

[Silverwolf941]

@VoiceEx I can't thank you enough for the trying an organic sound, there's this one verse in this project I'm working on and it seemed too dull/flat despite its use of expression, its has about 3 different things going on harmonic wise, but one was a repeating ostinato and the volume of the lead melody wasn't at the right levels. Although when I adjusted its style from sequenced to organic it gave it a more enticing sound! I'm still fine tuning the velocities for the more dynamic accents, however now I can continue to the new lead/solo. 

 

As far as finding my own sound, I like the concept of having runs/leads and solos in songs in general. An influence from metal we both share! I really enjoy using a piano especially the Steinway it has a complete full sound to it! I've definitely been too reliant on the piano roll and have been neglecting the recording aspect. I think if sketch out the sound in general and then go back and refine it, it can be like an art process of starting with general blocks to get my rhythm going, and then I can begin to sculpt the mix to humanistic sound. One of my major downsides is that I've been too reliant on the aeolian mode and too comfortable to venture into other modes. I think that along with my step sequenced work has kept me stuck, and non distinguishable from others. 

 

One day I hope to be able to compose for movies, video games and myself, but if I'm honest, my skillset isn't at the level of meeting deadlines. I have several projects in reserve that I've started, however the development process for me still takes about 3-5 months. At this point I'm working on developing a reserve of finished songs and release each one probably about 2-3 months apart. I'm getting slightly faster at music production, given about 1-2 years I think I'd be at a point where it might be an option. I think that one of the extremely difficult things of symphonic music, the genre has lots of people making orchestral music, usually trailer kind and it's a lot more simplistic. With your music I can clearly tell that there's a lot of time invested purely on the theory side alone, then again with the whole balancing of the mixing process. I really like the all the modes/scales, modulations, alternating leads, left and right emphasis, double bass work in your music, that's the kind of work you only get from a lifetime of studying and practicing!  The downside is I'm not too sure what would be a reasonable amount of time for them to give a composer. I don't know too many people in the symphonic side of the industry. I couldn't agree more with you about finding people interested people interested in our style it give me hope for this genre! A couple of people that I look up to are Peter Crowley and Tobias Scheel. To me their work is most similar to ours. 

[Silverwolf941]

@fasstrackI might get back to you on that, there's definitely a lot to learn about the woodwinds and brass. 

[Silverwolf941]

@VoiceExI use FL studio as a daw and they have a midi out feature which allows me to stack multiple instances on one play engine. So long as they aren't all playing at the same time. I've only used rendered files for multiple instances a couple of times when working with alternating the panning or a sample with a specific reverb. I don't quite have perfect pitch so I'm kind of limited to midi at the moment. I do like separating the section of strings, brass and percussion for ease of workflow though. There's a certain creativity that's only sparked when we're limited with our resources, I've definitely learned a lot being stuck with an i5, 12gb ram computer. I definitely want to look into the wavelab for mastering. That's a skill I am a complete noob on, but the only way to get better is to practice. 

[Silverwolf941]

No need for apologies here, I've definitely got a lot of helpful insight members and staff here. Some were articulate and some were blunt. Whether it be either, I needed/need all the advice I can get, if I surrounded myself with yes-people there would be no growth/learning. I still work a regular job, and the only way that I could dream about making it is through progress. I've interacted with plenty of people here that're very talented in their fields and genres, and often times they can create an amazing blend. Everyone here have all been helpful in the developmental process as far as I'm concerned. 

 

I think there's always going to some difficulty when working with new technology or subject, but sometimes there's also a created interest in the topics. Btw Something out the blue from Stevie Wonder has a lot of interesting leads/runs throughout the song, between the left and right balance of riffs it creates an interesting work! As well as it being smooth and mellow! A masterful knowledge of an orchestral seating style! 

[Silverwolf941]

@fasstrack Stevie Wonder's use of common chord tones in the voice leading really makes a lot of the flow seamless. I believe the modulations used really show the familiarity and good knowledge of the modes. I think that's one of things that can instantly garner attention, from using the common chords and flowing with it into V/iii chord. Then leading back to another pivot chord to the original tune. 

 

One of the things I admire about the jazz genre is their alternating use of time signatures. The 4/4 time signature can get boring after a while and the 3/4 or 6/8 really give a song some rhythm! 

[Silverwolf941]

12 hours ago, VoiceEx said:

I`m glad I was able to help! the trick in taming any kind of sound is to simply experiment with it. Always keep an open mind. Some sounds will sound good when played organically, like lets say classical instruments. While some other sounds will sound better when they are sequenced (mostly true for electronic / synth sounds). It really depends on what your trying to do. There are no real rules. Mix and match until you find exactly what your looking for. Many people that get into Scoring don`t realize that Sound synthesis is an area where music theory cannot help them. And even if you were familiar with every single aspect/plug/EQ/etc of your DAW, even at that point, experimentation is key to everything.

 

@VoiceEx For sure, like I said before I was looking into the timpani and was amazed by the fact that it can change it's tuning. I will say that it must be a pain trying to get used to relative pitches, but the results definitely seem promising! One day I probably will get into sound design through synths, as they can create amazing soundscapes. I'd probably start off with some simple drone notes as they can be very supporting and not too distracting. Then, maybe some plucks, but would need to invest in some equipment. One of the people I look up to is Ray Manzarek from the Doors. 

 

 

 

It all goes back to organic sounding the best! 

12 hours ago, VoiceEx said:

Its a neat time saver for people that cannot physically play the parts they have composed. Here, i`ll simplify the best methods for playing out a digital sequence to mimic an organic sound.

 

* Short parts: play on tempo *

* Chords: play slowly, but on key *

* Harmonic transitions: play intervals, but on key *

* Main lead hits: play slowly *

* Arpeggios: play note per note, adjust your speed of playing to how you want them to sound *

 

Then place the notes where you want them to be, and don`t forget to edit out/cut unwanted note-stretches.

 

Make no mistake - this IS a cheap trick and it takes alot of trail and error to get it right. But if done properly, it will add a whole new world of realism into your songs. This trick works on most types of instruments.

The current song I'm working on uses a santoor, an Indian instrument in a similar fashion to a guitar. I really wanted to capture the heaviness of the bass notes and light elegantness of the high notes. I've decided that this would be one of the unperformable songs, but it was something more for sound design and because the tone it has sounded really well along side some cellos. The part that I was really working with is the timing space of the strums, this was a little tricky, but fun nonetheless.

 

 

12 hours ago, VoiceEx said:

Oh you actually heard some of my old sketches? 😮 nice! thank you i`m glad you liked them! if I ever upload the finished versions of those, i`ll let you know. Though my newer songs and albums, the ones I made over the last ten years or so, are ALOT better. The ones I have on SC are child`s play. I always strive to pushing the limit of the trash equipment I use.

 

Speaking of which, this might seem a bit odd, but I wasn't a big fan of Scores before I started getting into them. I mean, sure, I heard some good Scores over the years. But I always felt like something was missing in them, ya know? their sounds were great but I always felt like they lacked in energy. Being as my backround is mostly in Metal, I get bored real quick. Which is one of the reasons I opt for emphasizing dynamic changes and interlaced elements. In a way, I guess you can say that I treat the rhythmic parts in a similar way to composing a technical lead. Not entirely of course because that would overwhelm the song. But I put in enough of those elements to keep up the energy. Or, at least that`s what I aim for. I tend to think that sound on itself should be thought of in terms of multiple layers, not just "sound". We have the technology to create practically anything, and sadly I feel like most Score composing don`t really get into that. In a way I guess you can say that I create the kind of Scores that I want to hear, since not many others do the things I enjoy.

 

I have and I really admire the use of an organ as a supporting instrument it can really bring a darker tone to a song! Lots of potential with the metal genre! For sure, let me know when you have some more releases ready! I also haven't gotten too much into scores as some are very complex and illegible. However there were a few like Totentanz from Lizst that just simply amazes me! I'm more interested in modern scores like John Williams, Koji Kondo (legend of zelda), o'donnel and salvatori from halo. I think that's my overall goal to create stuff that I'd imagine be fun to hear, not all playable, but some that are. I think if that I limit every thing to being playable then it be leaving a lot on the table. There's a lot of video games I've been influenced by, but not every song have been performable. 

 

 

12 hours ago, VoiceEx said:

As for work in the field. If I had to make a realistic suggestion to what I think you should aim for, I would say that video games currently have the largest employment market. Its also a very lucrative and dynamic field these days, and it shows no signs of slowing down. Plus the composition range (what you might be asked to do) can embody anything from Heavy Metal, Synthwave, to hardcore Industrial stuff. Ever heard stuff from Mick gordon? thats tight. Also companies that seek composers from videogames don`t care so much about a persons age or backround. In Movies / symphonic music / theater and all that jazz they usually go for old farts n shit who have years of experience, and diplomas in Post-Production. So videogames could be right up your ally. It might also be fun. See, when you compose for a videogame, you actually have to play the game (its part of the job). Aka, free copy + royalties + copyright + % of Soundtrack sales. Which can be cool. I dunno about you, but I personally like video games. I just don`t really have time for them anymore. What? its not a crime! lol.

 

I think that modern Scores, and Scores in general, are mostly underrated because people lump those in with Modern Movie Soundtracks. Soundtracks which are often sucky and too repetitive. When people hear "Score", all they hear is Hans Zimmer. Which is turn makes them think about old ass elevator music and the movie "Inception". Silly pop-culture stereotypes and references. It also doesn't help that people do look down on Scoring composers. Some people, stupid people, might even can tell you something in the lines of: "oh so you are suppose to be like Mozart?!".  Cringey bastards. We get no love man lol.

 

So yeah. Its i`m afraid its up to folk like us to lively these things up.

 

I agree with you on the I don't have time to be playing video games though. I've done that all my life before and look where its got me, I'd be willing to see footage or scenery and really ask thorough questions, but not really playing too much anymore. Unless it's world of tanks, then I'd make an exception :).  I do like being an indie artist though as I can't imagine giving my soundtracks all completely away. Even though Bob Dylan got like $300 million, it's still 600 songs worth of work. I could/would sell licenses or even some songs/a new album entirely to a game, but the price would have to be right. I'd prefer writing their work from scratch, instead of an already published work. I agree Hans Zimmer is like the pop artist of cinematic music, an excellent coordinator as he has all his reference people in order, but not my kind of musician. Even two steps have leaned heavily away from the music I enjoy. But this is just my opinion there are probably hundreds of upcoming cinematic artists that think he's the greatest thing ever. Especially with any kind of metal influences people already have a pre-judgement about it, but I'm still going to write the style that I write! 

[Silverwolf941]

I'm working on getting familiar with chords that modes are built out of, but currently I know for sure that I haven't got to the level of practice or flow that I could just completely play chords sound right. I should probably do some jam sessions to see what all I can improvise as it could keep things less stuck in guidelines. I still new to working with a lot of modes, but if I know its Maj/min characteristics, then I go from there. 

 

16 hours ago, fasstrack said:

And FWIW---just speaking for myself---I NEVER think modes; scales; chords. I'm trying for melodies always, and that incorporates those 3, plus rhythm and melody are in lockstep. But I never got into so-called modal playing in the same WAY most players approach it: 'bending' the harmony by stacking other chords against the 1 or 2 chords in typical modal pieces. I find that lots of cats fall into the trap of pattern playing---slick shit that'll work, but they play it til I'm bored to tears. To my ears only a few guys other than Coltrane, who was one of the 1st, really hold my interest after a few minutes: Woody Shaw; Joe Henderson; Tom Harrell for 3. Sonny Rollins was my favorite 'out' player. He was a marathon practicer like Trane, but he always said in interviews 'you can't think and play'. He felt, correctly, that inserting stuff worked out in practice at a planned spot in a tune, like a quote that works on certain changes, just doesn't smell right. So he always said he worked it out in the shed but tried to keep his mind blank on the gig. He says he 'lets the music come to me', That's hard as hell! It's going out on the edge and tempting a fall on your ass. But it's TRUE improvising, especially when you're also listening to the band, including the rhythm section. You gotta get all thoughts outta your head and be ready to turn on a dime.

 

Listening, cooperating; inspiring each other: THAT'S jazz... 

 

The not being able to think and play is completely true though, based on repetition and familiarity of the types of chords we use most could influence an improvision, whereas when writing things out like a scientist. I'm way more leaned towards the scientist at this point, but it limits a lot of creativity. For instance, I almost never use the Lydian mode, but have been keen on working with it. The difficult part for me would be how would I want to introduce the tritone should I do like a walking bassline, or flow into it with (II) chord spaced a whole step from the root. My thinking can be useful, but as of yet, its only been a limitation, when working with new modes/scales. The improv route is most similar to the 10,000 hours of practice and seeing where it leads, but can be far more rewarding! 

[Silverwolf941]

3 hours ago, fasstrack said:

But I didn't want to go that way---the guitar as an end in itself. I wanted to be a MUSICIAN who played guitar, and that's how it ended up. I don't have a really good technique---in this age of computers and 'perfection', but it suits my kind of playing and that's where I think it's at. When my chops really bug me or I'm not executing I get on my ass and shed scales w/a classic Franz metronome I got cheap from EBay. But these remediations don't last more than a few weeks b/c it's so f*cking BORING. But really even an hour of technique; a 1/2 hour of sight reading; and it's super important to practice 4/4 rhythm guitar if you play jazz or any non-classical style b/c that's where the pulse, the swing or groove originates from. I can always tell someone who thinks he's a badass soloist and never bothered to shed rhythm---their time feels are never quite in the pocket. So when MY time isn't up to snuff to me I work on rhythm guitar w/different tempos on the metronome. I hear the improvement the minute I shut off the metronome---I'm holding tempos and cookin' way better than before I used it. And I gotta admit the scale warm-up (arpeggios too) helps with control. I just wish it wasn't so boring. Maybe X-rated flicks while shedding?

 

So after Chuck I hooked up with 2 guys who really helped with the direction I needed to go in: Jimmy Raney and Eddie Diehl. See, jazz has to swing. Chuck's picking approach never accented anything rhythmically, and he started boozing so heavy he was rushing like mad on gigs. He f*cked tp his time feel with this technique hangup, and he had been such a great musician. Jimmy was critical of Chuck. They both had played with Charlie Parker as young men but went in opposite directions. Jimmy was one of the great improvisers who happened to play guitar. He was definitely trying to influence me away from Chuck. It was funny, like a struggle for control of my soul by 2 guys who were bad-mouthing each other's playing. Jimmy was saying 'forget the guitar'---which is what I was ready to do anyway, so I came down on his side and he and the equally brilliant (AND swinging like a dog) Eddie are very responsible for the kind of player I became. I put them in a funnel with some others I dug and had my shit too. I want to get better, but I can't say I'm unhappy with my direction. It's me. So listen to teachers, but your heart more.

 

And the scales ain't going anywhere... 

 

There have been a couple of times that I've recited some of the modes I was learning in non-sequential ways, but rather use random phrasings I've come up with some good ideas. Maybe it might be due to the timings seeming more felt rather than with delay like other times when I think too much. I guess one thing that could help would be to always practice whilst recording, then if certain sections sound good, recreate them as best as we can. I haven't spent as much time as I should practicing with a metronome, but there are a couple of songs that I'm still working on that one day I'd like to play live. I envision myself playing a Steinway grand piano in a couple of tracks I'm working on, but currently its a dream. Nonetheless I still practice them from time to time so it stays fresh in the memory. Although, it can be discouraging trying to get the tempo down sometimes. When we follow those who've created well before we develop the areas that should be improved on and thats why I try to remain humble, there's always ways to improve. Our hearts guide us in what we want to achieve. 

[Silverwolf941]

4 hours ago, fasstrack said:

Consider this, please---I have your best interest at heart: maybe stop thinking about INDIVIDUAL scales or individual anythings, and focus more on blending what has to blend to form sentences. In shedding it's cool to separate. But PLAYING if you stop to analyze what you're doing---Lydian this, G7 altered that, etc.---the music's gonna roll right by you b/c you're THINKING.

 

But if you're saying you want to work with different materials to compose with them or for knowledge that's a different story and I'd say right on, baby!

 

I wasn't sure how you meant it---but I can see you're a serious and humble young cat. And my age and relative experience have nothing to do with YOUR path. And I'm trying to be more open and humble myself to learn from you guys too. No one knows everything---in music one lifetime isn't enough. But I'm pretty sure about this: the jack of all trade guys are admirable in their way and really good in the studio or situations where a lot of styles are required. But the people we REMEMBER aren't 'faceless', they're 'faced'---really brought one or a few things all the way out, and in their own voices. I wish more people were like that. They're the artists and people who move music forward. The other kind are proficient and I can dig and respect it, the work and dedication it takes to master ANYTHING. But we have to be careful to rise above 'skills' into that other realm of creativity and soul---different for different people, but always recognizable...

 

I agree the music is just felt completely different when it's not limited to certain modes/scales. It shows a level of comfort when a musician can completely change the direction of its layers and rhythm at given time. Maybe its one of those things that comes happens after repetition after repetition of sounds not completely apart of just one sequence or phrasing. The creativity that is channeled when we don't limit ourselves to skills, but allow the notes to flow organically is when the best music is created!

[MikeRobinson]

There have always been "experimental musicians," and I daresay that a great many of them would now say that "they wasted their time 'dying'" if they could have simply time-forwarded themselves to the present day.  These were the folks who were taking razor-blades to blank player-piano rolls, cutting very-careful rectangles into them to create "musical compositions" that no human pianist could ever play ... and then playing them in front of auditoriums of ticket-buyers.

 

No set of musicians, throughout these many centuries, has ever been able even to conceive of the musical possibilities that are available to all of us today ... even using "entirely free" software, which is certainly no longer "second best."

 

Therefore: "Here's your century's version of 'the envelope.'  Push it!"