Music Appeal, Audience and Industry

[john]

Hi

 

Rolling this discussion over from a critique thread… starting with a quote on my post in response to a post about the rights and wrongs of writing simple songs for a young audience with poor attention span and broad appeal:

 

and yet, there is increasing pressure from listeners crying out for substance.

 

I don’t intend a branch discussion in this thread, though I do think it a very, very useful discussion… just not in great detail in MP’s thread. I might start a new thread elsewhere.

 

Meanwhile, I would say that the listening habits of kids is less important than it once was. The active listening demographic has shifted over the years. Sure, for certain markets kids still dominate, but how kids listen has changed. It isn’t as simple as simple language, straightforward messaging, KISS. Kids are less genre defined, less genre restricted. They have broader listening habits than their forebears, with activity driven listening and activity driven diversity being much more important than it once was.

 

The demographic has also changed regarding age. There are many more engaged listeners in older age groups than there once was, and older listers are also much more likely to buy versus stream. Subscriptions and playlists have also hugely transformed listening habits and the various delivery platforms continue to shape discovery.

 

You get the points. I do agree with much of what you say for certain markets Ben,  but tapping in to trends is more nuanced than it once was and access to more market niches is much better than it once was. Money is still there to be made however how you make it has considerably changed… and it too is more nuanced and is genre/age dependent. We have access to many more vehicles than we once did. We just need to be aware of them and build suitable ways to engage them.

 

As you say, money is not the only reason and for many no reason at all. For many it is listener numbers on the surface but connection and engagement underneath…. ie reaching and connecting. What works for each target audience is pretty specific BUT as ever, you can follow trends or set trends or something in between. 
 

I posted a link the other day to a current viral video that speaks directly to the growing demand for more meat on the bone for songs. It’s a 9 minute piece all about mental health…. “Hi Ren”. A talented and challenging unsigned UK artist. A breath of fresh air.

 

Point is, different labels and publishers and production companies look for different potential products… and they don’t necessarily cater for all demand either. New appetites and rediscovered old ones are found all the time. That’s a role independents have always explored and catered for. Far more trends have been created and developed by grass roots indie than have been manufactured by labels. True, labels are great at jumping on a bandwagon and the driving that bandwagon into the ground by aggressively pursuing “easy and predictable”, but the new ground is broken by the indies.

 

I won’t drone on more other than to say, we each position ourselves towards our various audiences, intentionally or unintentionally. As a songwriter (less so an artist) we get to write cross genre and broad appeal right through to very niche. We cater accordingly. 
 

It still remains true that we can make a good living from 10k real fans (if money making is a goal) and you can make a decent living from considerably less. Much depends on the loyalty we build and how prolific we are. As a Songwriter that isn’t an artist we are one step away from the action. For me, writing for specific artists and their audiences is a very effective way ahead, but it isn’t your only option. If you write according to lowest common denominator ( most common, best liked etc) music is bang in the middle of the road, feels more restrictive and is often unchallenging and less original. Getting the balance right is a bit harder, I think.

 

 

 

 

Crack on with the debate

[Jac]

8 minutes ago, john said:

Hi

 

Rolling this discussion over from a critique thread… starting with a quote on my post in response to a post about the rights and wrongs of writing simple songs for a young audience with poor attention span and broad appeal:

 

and yet, there is increasing pressure from listeners crying out for substance.

 

I don’t intend a branch discussion in this thread, though I do think it a very, very useful discussion… just not in great detail in MP’s thread. I might start a new thread elsewhere.

 

Meanwhile, I would say that the listening habits of kids is less important than it once was. The active listening demographic has shifted over the years. Sure, for certain markets kids still dominate, but how kids listen has changed. It isn’t as simple as simple language, straightforward messaging, KISS. Kids are less genre defined, less genre restricted. They have broader listening habits than their forebears, with activity driven listening and activity driven diversity being much more important than it once was.

 

The demographic has also changed regarding age. There are many more engaged listeners in older age groups than there once was, and older listers are also much more likely to buy versus stream. Subscriptions and playlists have also hugely transformed listening habits and the various delivery platforms continue to shape discovery.

 

You get the points. I do agree with much of what you say for certain markets Ben,  but tapping in to trends is more nuanced than it once was and access to more market niches is much better than it once was. Money is still there to be made however how you make it has considerably changed… and it too is more nuanced and is genre/age dependent. We have access to many more vehicles than we once did. We just need to be aware of them and build suitable ways to engage them.

 

As you say, money is not the only reason and for many no reason at all. For many it is listener numbers on the surface but connection and engagement underneath…. ie reaching and connecting. What works for each target audience is pretty specific BUT as ever, you can follow trends or set trends or something in between. 
 

I posted a link the other day to a current viral video that speaks directly to the growing demand for more meat on the bone for songs. It’s a 9 minute piece all about mental health…. “Hi Ren”. A talented and challenging unsigned UK artist. A breath of fresh air.

 

Point is, different labels and publishers and production companies look for different potential products… and they don’t necessarily cater for all demand either. New appetites and rediscovered old ones are found all the time. That’s a role independents have always explored and catered for. Far more trends have been created and developed by grass roots indie than have been manufactured by labels. True, labels are great at jumping on a bandwagon and the driving that bandwagon into the ground by aggressively pursuing “easy and predictable”, but the new ground is broken by the indies.

 

I won’t drone on more other than to say, we each position ourselves towards our various audiences, intentionally or unintentionally. As a songwriter (less so an artist) we get to write cross genre and broad appeal right through to very niche. We cater accordingly. 
 

It still remains true that we can make a good living from 10k real fans (if money making is a goal) and you can make a decent living from considerably less. Much depends on the loyalty we build and how prolific we are. As a Songwriter that isn’t an artist we are one step away from the action. For me, writing for specific artists and their audiences is a very effective way ahead, but it isn’t your only option. If you write according to lowest common denominator ( most common, best liked etc) music is bang in the middle of the road, feels more restrictive and is often unchallenging and less original. Getting the balance right is a bit harder, I think.

 

 

 

 

Crack on with the debate

right, ll break the above into sections, to start the dissusion if that ok.

 

 point l.   'the attention of kids has changed' l agree but l feel the music ind is not helping kids but giving into that change. l feel its in fact making it worse for kids to actively listen to anything. what l mean as 'actively listen' is my perception of communication. Communication is being eroded..it fact l think communication is dying. what will be commication be in a 100's years time ? l fear for the future of the nk generation regarding communication as what we see today is kids heads buried in phones no bigger than a match box, typing short l word or a icon for a sentence.talk to those same kids if you can ge them off the phones and they dont want to listen to anyone or even talk to anyone. the music ind has a high price it paying to indulge those kids in the music its marketing today with the same sort of short commincation in lyrics. what will the music ind do in a 100's time when communication is gone ! 

the music ind has a lot to answer for.

[McnaughtonPark]

I’m good with exploring the different song forms in current music.  Will I be catching all the ways a song is still using aspects of old genres?  I think so, at least instinctively.  I’ll hear 12 bar blues style lyrics, or when a style references the old standards or jazz.  For me, it makes sense to build on those and move it along.  
 

I don’t feel well enough equipped to write for my daughters’ generations, or my sons, I’m not sure what they listen to, but I sometimes hear them singing one of my songs.  You never really know what someone might value lyric wise.  
 

I actually want to separate somewhat from convention.  I feel free when I’m out there, I know where the strings attach and hopefully which ones to pull to guide the kite.  Of course I’ll get it wrong sometimes, most times perhaps. Sometimes, just to see if I can, I might try taking the kite to the forest, another time to the beach, but learn from the settings and the elements that work.

 

 

[Jac]

28 minutes ago, McnaughtonPark said:

I’m good with exploring the different song forms in current music.  Will I be catching all the ways a song is still using aspects of old genres?  I think so, at least instinctively.  I’ll hear 12 bar blues style lyrics, or when a style references the old standards or jazz.  For me, it makes sense to build on those and move it along.  
 

I don’t feel well enough equipped to write for my daughters’ generations, or my sons, I’m not sure what they listen to, but I sometimes hear them singing one of my songs.  You never really know what someone might value lyric wise.  
 

I actually want to separate somewhat from convention.  I feel free when I’m out there, I know where the strings attach and hopefully which ones to pull to guide the kite.  Of course I’ll get it wrong sometimes, most times perhaps. Sometimes, just to see if I can, I might try taking the kite to the forest, another time to the beach, but learn from the settings and the elements that work.

 

 

thats interesting you say you dont feel well equipped to write for yr daughers or sons generation. have you asked them what they feel about todays music?  my gson works few hrs in a resturant washing up to earn money to go to france to stay with my daughter working there for 12 months before comes back to do his uni study. he says the music they play ( chart music) while he's at work drives him mad, he doesnt even know who the bands are. but he knows he hates the music. we talk often about bands and genre, he likes rap and bands like foo fighter. but when l asked him about the lyrics, he said' oh l dont read/listen to them , l  dont have time, l just really listen to a few words that l like and of course the music beats.

Edited January 27, 2023 by Jac

[McnaughtonPark]

My son would say the same about things.  My daughters, I’d be interested in hearing.  Good suggestion.

[Jac]

25 minutes ago, McnaughtonPark said:

My son would say the same about things.  My daughters, I’d be interested in hearing.  Good suggestion.

my husband is a heavy metal fan/follower. he used to have a a large collection of records. we sold most of them to buy our cottage in country  we go to club most weekend to hear live music of tribute bands..his genre metal, mine allternative rock. l asked about todays music in the charts..he says he hasnt listened to it for a few year now, he says he doesnt  think its worth it, he doesnt like the music they bring out nowadays. such a shame, what about all the lost talent out there, being swallowed up by big music industry that all they want to do is earn fast millions and at same time ruin kids 'senses'.

So made me wonder, how will the music business be in say a few years time....

 

[McnaughtonPark]

In a few years, probably much the same as it is now.  In fifty years, an AI programmer will have integrated Boz Scaggs, Jackson Browne, and Bruce Springsteen and be rocking the crap outta some space station on Mars.

Edited January 27, 2023 by McnaughtonPark

[Jac]

8 minutes ago, McnaughtonPark said:

In a few years, probably much the same as it is now.  In fifty years, an AI programmer will have integrated Boz Scaggs, Jackson Browne, and Bruce Springsteen and be rocking the crap outta some space station on Mars.

gson is study 3D animation, amazing software he's learning.  l challenged him often when l give ideas to put on his projects, like what would happen if programme  is given a word that has two meaning..its so cool how the computer gives visuals on the words,,we get very weird visual come up

says A1 will control everything in future, scarry..

 lyrics will it survive.?.im not sure, its communcation humans have used since the word 'lyric was formed from the instrument Lyre' that poets used to sing their words.. l feel im living in the time of the end of human communication, to be replaced by A1 robot music lol

[McnaughtonPark]

That’s a real fear today.  If you’re 90 you say who cares.  If you’re 50 you say, how am I going to deal with this.  If you’re 20 you say, how am I going to make money from this.  

[Jac]

Point 2..'subscriptions and playlist have change listening habits'

 

l agree. l listen to all my music on you tube only. l only watch the vevo with lyrics added. iv never used spotify, l like the visuals on youtube and l can explore more about the  artist if l wish.

But some new  artist use of visuals has changed so much.Some visuals dont even go with the lyrics meanings,

Q...Is it to' arty'..ld love others opinions.

[john]

15 hours ago, Jac said:

right, ll break the above into sections, to start the dissusion if that ok.

 

 point l.   'the attention of kids has changed' l agree but l feel the music ind is not helping kids but giving into that change. l feel its in fact making it worse for kids to actively listen to anything. what l mean as 'actively listen' is my perception of communication. Communication is being eroded..it fact l think communication is dying. what will be commication be in a 100's years time ? l fear for the future of the nk generation regarding communication as what we see today is kids heads buried in phones no bigger than a match box, typing short l word or a icon for a sentence.talk to those same kids if you can ge them off the phones and they dont want to listen to anyone or even talk to anyone. the music ind has a high price it paying to indulge those kids in the music its marketing today with the same sort of short commincation in lyrics. what will the music ind do in a 100's time when communication is gone ! 

the music ind has a lot to answer for.

That’s the thing… it isn’t one industry. You are talking about the sometimes competing needs of different industries. For a number of years the music industry has been sidelined. It less often dictates how features should be used. More often it plays catch up, trying to find ways it can exploit trends in largely teen use of tech… that’s why it is chasing lowest common denominator engagement desperate to be on-trend. I can’t remember the last real engagement trend set by the music industry. This goes along with music industry approach to tech for decades.
 

It’s weird. Musically, artists and producers regularly adopted new tech, broke new ground in tech use. When it came to marketing labels stuck to “how it used to be”, forever trying to constrain methodologies into the nice lucrative boxes they were familiar with… to the extent they almost killed music as an industry. In the end, virtually everything they have now has been inherited from other industries (internet marketing, social media etc). The closest were evolvements of music piracy based industries, digital downloads and streaming. In both cases the music industry followed a familiar approach of jumping on to bandwagons, for fear of being left behind. In both cases it struck deals when it absolutely had to and not before and as a result struck really crap deals.

 

When the music industry has pushed forward on a broader, home grown basis, it has always been slowly, with the emphasis on retaining 100% control. Keeping everything in nice comfortable, familiar boxes is more important. Ie their use of those boxes trumps any other party.

 

Where innovation still comes from is grass roots use. For a long time the industry seemed to focus on trying to put genies back in the bottle instead of asking how it could use something productively and constructively. I still think that is much of the knee jerk reaction to “new”.

 

Young indies, on the other hand, are much more prepared to experiment and try new approaches. Older generations tend to do the mainstream industry approach of “why learn new stuff, it’s complicated and I liked it simple, how it was”. Of course it wasn’t always simple, was rarely fair, it was just easy to go along with, minimum fuss.

 

As time has passed I think indies of all ages are beginning to look at new tech and how they could use it. If you wonder where you are, email autoresponder have been a core part of internet marketing for nearly 3 decades. If you are just hearing this term you are waaaay behind. If you know what they are but don’t have one, you are way behind what you could be doing. If you have a mailing list that you don’t use, likewise. It’s a bit like having a 6 string guitar and choosing to only ever play 5!
 

Out of interest… I am not aware of one single artist platform that offers autoresponder as part of their mailing list features. None. If you want to use one you need your own site and the 3rd party services of an autoresponder and mailing list provider.

 

Still, the largely inactive, complacent, spoon fed industry (mainstream and indie) uses what it is given. Meanwhile it is the innovators that are largely rewarded. 
 

Note, autoresponders are just one feature. Chat bots fulfil a similar role in the world of messenger apps. Integrated all-in-one systems exist too.

[john]

10 hours ago, Jac said:

Point 2..'subscriptions and playlist have change listening habits'

 

l agree. l listen to all my music on you tube only. l only watch the vevo with lyrics added. iv never used spotify, l like the visuals on youtube and l can explore more about the  artist if l wish.

But some new  artist use of visuals has changed so much.Some visuals dont even go with the lyrics meanings,

Q...Is it to' arty'..ld love others opinions.

It’s like synth presets. For some performers they have to create something new, unique. For many, largely less skilled, that is too slow, too fussy. They want easy, instant pay offs. Preset use here we go.

 

Older musicians, older people, are far more familiar with investing effort for richer rewards. Younger are far more oriented around instant gratification, cover a lot of ground quickly, originality is perceived as too time consuming, too costly. It’s a world that went passed “that’s close enough” when looking for something specific, straight to “oh wow” and embracing flaws largely based on ignorance because they had stopped even looking for something specific, instead choosing “next” and stopping on something that sounded interesting. They don’t even spot flaws because many are untrained and have no idea about possibilities. For them, new ideas come in the form of buying a new sound or loop library.

 

My point, is that the masses don’t look at the detail. If a blind man flying by on a bike wouldn’t notice, that is good enough for them….

 

however, the artists leading the pack, they are largely still obsessing over detail, are keen to learn, want visuals that at least connect with the story, if not match up.

[Jac]

4 hours ago, john said:

It’s like synth presets. For some performers they have to create something new, unique. For many, largely less skilled, that is too slow, too fussy. They want easy, instant pay offs. Preset use here we go.

 

Older musicians, older people, are far more familiar with investing effort for richer rewards. Younger are far more oriented around instant gratification, cover a lot of ground quickly, originality is perceived as too time consuming, too costly. It’s a world that went passed “that’s close enough” when looking for something specific, straight to “oh wow” and embracing flaws largely based on ignorance because they had stopped even looking for something specific, instead choosing “next” and stopping on something that sounded interesting. They don’t even spot flaws because many are untrained and have no idea about possibilities. For them, new ideas come in the form of buying a new sound or loop library.

 

My point, is that the masses don’t look at the detail. If a blind man flying by on a bike wouldn’t notice, that is good enough for them….

 

however, the artists leading the pack, they are largely still obsessing over detail, are keen to learn, want visuals that at least connect with the story, if not match up.

thanks John for replying. just woke & on my first cuppa of the day lol so will take my time over the day to read your 2 posts.

But one quick question, where to do think its all going the music industry.? l

do realise it contains a lot of 'elements' that make it up but all l can see is ' erosion and eventual destruction. im assuming you are a producer so have your finger on the pulse but all l can see is it going in the wrong direction with all this tec at its fingertips.

Kids want, kids demand, so music ind gives it !!!!

yes im from the old school and to be honest l think its too late on what l see, but l fear for it all as l see the music ind as a complete whole is largely to blame for it all and l dont think the industry even realises it !! 

 gosh im on my soap box at 9am in morning, good job im not in a room full of Producers at 9am spilling this all out, they would be chucking me out at 9.05am lol.

[Jac]

12 hours ago, john said:

It’s like synth presets. For some performers they have to create something new, unique. For many, largely less skilled, that is too slow, too fussy. They want easy, instant pay offs. Preset use here we go.

 

Older musicians, older people, are far more familiar with investing effort for richer rewards. Younger are far more oriented around instant gratification, cover a lot of ground quickly, originality is perceived as too time consuming, too costly. It’s a world that went passed “that’s close enough” when looking for something specific, straight to “oh wow” and embracing flaws largely based on ignorance because they had stopped even looking for something specific, instead choosing “next” and stopping on something that sounded interesting. They don’t even spot flaws because many are untrained and have no idea about possibilities. For them, new ideas come in the form of buying a new sound or loop library.

 

My point, is that the masses don’t look at the detail. If a blind man flying by on a bike wouldn’t notice, that is good enough for them….

 

however, the artists leading the pack, they are largely still obsessing over detail, are keen to learn, want visuals that at least connect with the story, if not match up.

quote..the masses don't look at the detail.

so true, but who's to blame for that ? l think the music ind as a whole must admit it has its share in that problem.

Why are the so doing it or should l say allowing it. 

 Last week l was watching one of the Star Wars film that l hadnt seen before ( l know, late to the party lol)  and a scene came on where its set in a club with Aliens listening to singer and music.  the singer was basically humming and the music arranment a few bars on a  sythesizer on repeat. It struck me like a bolt because l could'  thats where we are going' . l feel sorry for young musicans, songwriters etc trying to get into the business because when they see whats being promoted they think ' oh thats easy l could do that'  and what happens their talent is destroyed becuase they give up as 'the masses dont care and the music ind dont care' 

someone said to me on here when l asked where is all going to end, he said the future is that music will be fed to us off all the old artists tracks of yesterday because there is nothing left..so we will be rocking to just the old beats of yesterday. and l believe it. what a waste of young talent of today who will just give up on tomorrow.

[john]

9 hours ago, Jac said:

thanks John for replying. just woke & on my first cuppa of the day lol so will take my time over the day to read your 2 posts.

But one quick question, where to do think its all going the music industry.? l

do realise it contains a lot of 'elements' that make it up but all l can see is ' erosion and eventual destruction. im assuming you are a producer so have your finger on the pulse but all l can see is it going in the wrong direction with all this tec at its fingertips.

Kids want, kids demand, so music ind gives it !!!!

yes im from the old school and to be honest l think its too late on what l see, but l fear for it all as l see the music ind as a complete whole is largely to blame for it all and l dont think the industry even realises it !! 

 gosh im on my soap box at 9am in morning, good job im not in a room full of Producers at 9am spilling this all out, they would be chucking me out at 9.05am lol.

One quick question lol Books have been written on less! Lmao

 

A bit of back story.

 

There has been a general erosion of perception of value. There has been a number of reasons, and a whole bunch of misinformation deliberately put out in order to undermine the music industry in order to favour the internet industries. Historical the root was at the time of Napster the pirate, and YouTube using music without permission. Both should have owed masses of money. They got away with nearly trivial payments, and public opinion was manipulated with misinformation about the exploitation of fans and artists by record labels. The owners of YouTube (Google) would have been hit with massive bills, and Google ran the search engine that for some reason placed articles supporting misinformation of CD pricing and costs at the top of search results and arguments supporting the RIAA based facts were about 10 pages down. The basis of the misinformation was that it cost about 50 cents to per CD to make, and they were being sold for $15 and artists saw like 20 cents per CD. There was an element of truth in costs in that buying in bulk, a raw, unpressed, non printed, blank CD was about 50-65 cents. That also did not include the cost of a bar code, booklet, shrink wrap, distribution, storage, or profit share with retailers, never mind recording costs, practice costs, gear etc. at the same time Google helped distribute the opinion that music should be made and shared for free.
 

Weirdly out of all trades and professions, making music doesn’t deserve recompense. A sizeable group of musicians believe this. Can you imagine ANY other trade being expected to work for nothing? Of course, they are all amateurs who have the privilege of earning their wages from paid jobs. In truth, for many, they hope to advance by doing for free, what others charge for. The same happened with the lower end of the gig market, with bands playing for free (or in some cases paying to play!). It ended up killing the small venue gigs and tours as a viable income stream for smaller professional and semi professional market. Sadly musician’s unions have been ineffective at combating this. As have collection societies like ASCAP, BMI, PRS etc.

 

My point is amateur musicians have been complicit in undermining the music industry and killing off the lower end of the professional industry and many niches. So many music professionals left the industry. So much experience, gone. Income stream after income stream has been stripped away. Currently it is income from film and TV. Sync rights being lost with some production companies removing bespoke music from existing titles, to be replaced with subscription based library music. Desperate pros, semi pros and wannabe amateurs have created vast library collections that are now being provided to film and TV makers for ridiculous subscriptions. Like streaming, music is provided such that music makers get a pitiful reward while the platforms make huge profits and the advertisers on those platforms make huge money off the back of the music.

 

This is where the doom and gloom of reductionist viewpoints dwells. Loss of recording income. Loss of low end gig income. Loss of sync rights. Loss or merch income. Loss of session work. Loss of society value of music and musicians. Even loss of self-value.

 

So where is there hope? New innovation around value, kept closer to the creators. Value around what only they can give and keep control of. Music, in some cases has gone from being the source of income to being a loss leader. Income can be derived from selling “an experience”, with artists being more accessible and there being a closer relationship between listeners, fans, artists and writers. Such relationships require more initial investment but ululated back in spade. Fortunately, such “experiences” can be kept closer to artists.

 

The truth is, we need to be less complacent. We need to innovate. We need to have a different relationship with listeners. We need to take more care of those relationships. We need to be more active in our own music business, instead of relying so heavily on someone else to deal with all the unpleasant business stuff. We need to learn. We need to empower ourselves. Before other people can value what we do, we need to firsts value ourselves.

 

Artists and writers can have a good living from 10k fans… but they need to adapt. They need to understand positioning. They position themselves to have specific relationships to earn from specific income streams…. And that they are unlikely to earn from all possible income streams because they are sometimes a case of either/or. Modern artists must educate themselves.

 

I would write more… but I have to eat lol be back later if I have time. I hope the above is at least food for thought or a prompt for your own chain of thought.

[VoiceEx]

On 1/27/2023 at 2:22 PM, john said:

It still remains true that we can make a good living from 10k real fans (if money making is a goal) and you can make a decent living from considerably less.

 

This is very true, and its one of the reasons why I had originally set my sights on the videogame industry (as oppose to, lets say, leaning strictly towards cinema) and stayed on that lane for many years. In terms of creative leniency (content wise) and business opportunities, there's enough work until the end of time.

 

I know that talking about money and discussing umbrella terms such as 'content creation' can make certain people feel uncomfortable. There is no shortage of purists that want to operate as a "detached jukebox", and can't stand the idea of maintaining a closer relationship with their listeners. So I won't get too much into that.

 

However, I will say, that, if we talking in terms of sustainability, if music and streaming revenue is NOT the only thing on the table, than in many ways 'it' (content creation) actually becomes a sort of "all you can eat buffet". That is, provided a person approaches it with an open mind. Hell. Sometimes when I go on streams I'll make jokes about how even silly stuff like "thirst bait", and other forms of ridicules content, can potentially out-sell a string of singles.

 

"The art of dying inside", if you will 😅 I'm just joking of course, but the truth is not so far from it. Selling an experience is simply more profitable than "just" selling music. Its also more fun for the creator, though maybe that's just me.

Edited January 29, 2023 by VoiceEx

[Jac]

quote; 'selling an experience is simply more profitable than 'just' selling music'

 

well to be honest lm glad l evoked a debate as l wanted to share my views from the stand point  as a consumer, a creative and  l guess a moralist.

Does a person of all three have any need to be concerned with all three with it all.

well i'm bound to say yes. Does all three have any right to give a voice. l hope so. l cant be the only one, surely.

l guess the games ind and the music ind all feel the same  ' it can only get better'

but l l dont agree.

Development is of course going to happen in this high tec world we now live in as never before it's at our fingertips.

Is it going too fast, l say yes. Too fast for my liking and in my eyes it will pay a price. There seems to me to be no constraint on that development,( not just music) .sorry that's my moralistic part of me coming out.

yes im greatful for the response but all l read is from a marketing view point.   Sorry.

I'm a 'child' in this business world and so l see things as a 'child'  but l know that ok .But l  do know you are interested as you have responded, which im greatful for as you could have just ignored it. lol.

Its all massive big business and It doesnt put my mind at rest as a consumer.

l  just want to evoke a thought.

 

'Where is the music industry going' ?

 

sorry im on my soap box again lol.

Edited January 29, 2023 by Jac

[HoboSage]

A couple of a la cart items as food for thought in this thread:

 

1.  What did my 17 year old daughter want for X-Mas this year?  A USB/Bluetooth turntable.  Vinyl sales, though apparently now slowing, have increased every year for the past 17 years. And many kids, just like my daughter, not only want their music to have substance, they want the medium by which they listen to their favorite music to have physical substance too.  Sure they want to stream via headphones or in their cars for convenience when they're on the move.  But many are also enamored with the whole at-home viny experience, just like we used to be - hearing our favorite music played through a stereo "out in the room" while we pour over the big album covers and jackets with pictures and liner notes, etc.  Might limited vinyl runs also be another way musical artists can get "closer" to their fans and offer them something "more"?

 

2.  The main music streaming platforms are also the main audio podcast streaming platforms.  Is doing something with audio podcasts - maybe releasing a brief podcast of you talking a "behind the song/music" kind of thing along with your release of the song/music itself - something worth doing to give potential fans something more and to promote the release more?  I've never recorded or released an audio podcast, but it isn't hard to do.

Edited January 29, 2023 by HoboSage

[john]

Hi Jac

 

I was thinking more of music creator’s perspective and the feasibility of music as a profession, rather than a marketing perspective. This speaks more to the survival of music as an industry, rather than as a hobby. That in itself has a huge bearing on the quality of music created and the amount.

 

A lot of the pop industry invests far more in new versions of old songs, songs they know can sell. Taken all together that has a big effect on new music and the number of professional songwriters.

 

My point about money and history was intended to be more about how we value music and musicians. It has massively changed. Moving from a massive music industry of professionals to more amateur made music is a massive change. Imagine 99% of woodwork went from the current situation to the disappearance of most companies and woodwork was mainly provided by hobbyists. That is a huge shift in society and in the perception of carpenters and joiners.

 

As a consumer and creator we have a huge choice available, as long as we keep paying. The fact that so much music is available for such a small ongoing amount means less money going into the music industry. Especially as the retailers get most of the income the music generates. It takes concerted effort to support the musicians we love. The entire music landscape economically is driving new music towards more homogenous formulaic music.

 

By making music more accessible at much reduced cost, we are discouraging the creation of new music, of what there is created we are encouraging the creation of safe music, and driving down the quality of music made and reducing the level of musicianship needed. All that before we factor in tools to make music based on loops and AI created music.

 

Ethically we are in a dilemma. So far consumers seem pretty happy with music becoming “less”. Less well regarded. Less respected. Less special. Worryingly, because the information they are given is highly focused and filtered, people are barely aware of the consequences of their choices and the scale of the impact, and more worryingly, when they are made aware, they don’t seem to really care.

 

Also hugely concerning, musicians feel powerless to change this. In fact, they have also bought into that same narrative.

 

We (society) have turned the way we perceive music, its value, its creators into a commodity. That goes way beyond marketing. It’s implications dominate every aspect of music creation, music sharing, and the relationship between listeners, artists and songwriters.

Like it or not, money, how we spend it and where, has a direct baring on what we hear and when we hear it. It has an impact on how we receive music, our state of mind, our emotional relationship with music. The way music is packaged, our relationship with the people who make music has all changed.

 

Even the general perception of “stars” has changed. They are less special. Cheapened. The rise of celebrities with no particular skills changes how we perceive and value talent. Reality stars make celebrities based on how willing they are to debase themselves, rather than having any skills or talent. In music, the rise in hip hop and derived genres sees music largely based on new combinations of pre-made loops has made music creation more accessible. You don’t need high levels of skill, even any level of skill to produce “beats”. All of music creation reduced to being the backing track. It all goes towards a vastly different relationship between today’s listeners and the people who make music.

 

Indie music is expanding. In some ways this encourages experimentation, unfortunately the reduced level of skills by a big percentage of the people making music makes it harder for different music to break through. There is a lot more noise out there making it harder to be seen, to be heard.

 

We are always at crossroads. We just move the crossroad further down one road or another. The trouble is, the genie is well and truly out the bottle.

 

As listeners, and as music creators, we need to be more aware that the choices we make today, tomorrow, every day massively impacts what music becomes, what it means to us. Unwittingly we do wield power.

 

As creators we can no longer dumbly stand by, complacent, passive to our own demise.

 

Just my opinion. We are in a poor place (not just money) but we are also in a place of huge opportunity. We need to have open minds, but also be willing to support what we truly love.

 

I think people hugely underestimate the importance of music in our lives. Without it, our world would be much diminished. Yet, for years now, we treat music with little regard or respect, and it has already taken its toll. The amount of money in the industry is much less. The number of musicians and songwriters in the industry (professionally) is much less.

 

People have become so used to being spoon fed, to taking what we are given and to wanting everything for free, but they do not realise the power they have, and when they do they use it towards such short term goals.

 

Maybe that is the sad truth. Music, like everything else, suffers from the preoccupation with short term aspirations, and is a casualty, a victim of the 22nd Century Wars of Entitlement.

 

That said, there is a growing undercurrent. A hunger for substance. A search for the more meaningful. It has yet to have any real representation on main stream media, but I believe there is hope.

[john]

17 minutes ago, HoboSage said:

The main music streaming platforms are also the main podcast streaming platforms.  Is releasing a brief podcast of you talking a "behind the song/music" kind of thing along with your release of the song/music itself, something worth doing to give potential fans something more and to promote the release more?  I've never recorded or released a podcast, but it isn't hard to do.

Anything that is more immediately linked to the Artist, is hard to replicate or turn into a commodity, gives a way ahead. It make the “whole” more substantial.
 

The artist is turning into the product.