Q; Good/Bad Advice

[Jac]

i'v decided to do some  more research on the Music Industry and i'm curious on what advice you may have been given over time on anything concerning music. Was it good or bad advice?

Did it work for you or did you wish you had never listened to it ?

 

[john]

12 hours ago, Jac said:

i'v decided to do some  more research on the Music Industry and i'm curious on what advice you may have been given over time on anything concerning music. Was it good or bad advice?

Did it work for you or did you wish you had never listened to it ?

 

 

ooooo…

 

I’ve been giving advice for years… or at least opinions, because that is all advice ever is. I’ve lost count!

 

In truth it would be unusual if I never changed my mind. We are always changing, learning. The world is always changing, evolving. Advice that could be great advice today can be terrible advice a year later. If I give you advice today to help you stand out, and you apply it and get results, and another bunch of people follow it too, and then others copy them, and copy them and copy them, pretty soon that is the norm and none of you will stand out. Perhaps one or two of the early adopters will have gained enough at the time. That’s kind of what we do. Marketing technique. Music technique. Word technique. Fashion. All we ever get are gains in the moment. Sometimes they are authentic enough, deep enough, that the gains stick. Queue up enough gains, one after the other, and you just might build a significant fanbase, some longevity in the industry.

 

It’s not about the one idea. It’s about consistently getting good ideas, good execution. It’s about peppering that with great ideas and execution, a smattering of fantastic ideas, and a few mind blowing to boot. That comes from opening yourself up, taking risks and being freely creative for the love of it. Art is no one thing. No great brush stroke. It takes many brush strokes to make a painting and many paintings to make a career. Ideas will be what you always fall short of if you wait to be spoon fed, as many do. Be the hungry one. Try new things. Mix your own colours.

 

All of which sounds a hell of a lot like more opinions and advice! Lol

[VoiceEx]

I've received all sorts of advice over the years. Both from seasoned producers, accomplished musicians, songwriters etc, but also from hobbyists and from people who work in all sorts of industries. As such, Its impossible for me to point out 'just' a few words of advice, being as even an oversimplification of the sheer volume of that, could probably make for string of threads. You could say that I learned from a lot people, and not only from musicians.

That being said, in terms of evaluating who (or what) to listen too, I can give you a good general direction to my approach and explain one of the metrics I start with. Don't worry, I won't go too deep, and only briefly touch on initial interpersonal aspects of it.

As a rule of thumb, I usually go about my business by challenging what I'm told and testing what I'm being told. And before I will even begin consider listening to someone, I will carefully examine what their saying, cross reference what their saying, run that by people who I -do trust, and compare everything they said to whatever I can find about their body of work. And If I decide to follow someone's advice, they are going to have to impress me first (on a multitude of facets, many of which I haven't even mentioned), and prove to me through more then just their knowledge, that there is value in seeking out their council and following their advice.

 

I know that may sound a bit harsh or judgemental, but its important to factor in all the practicalities involved. After all, if I do decide to follow someone's advice, in most cases, that is an action that could potentially cost me: time, money, energy, resources, or whatever else. Which means I have to be very careful, all the time.

 

Not to mention, everybody wants something, and there is no shortage of scammers out there. In addition, there is also the subject of an individual area's expertise. I mean, yeah, any good producer can give you useful advice, regardless of anything. However, in terms of, lets say, musical arrangements, sound engineering, instruments (etc), there are certain production directions which are more relevant to their respective niche. You're more likely to get useful advice from people who excel in their fields, then you would from people who simply dabble with what you're doing.

 

What I'm trying to say is, when it comes to advice, its important to keep an open mind, but its also equally important to be mindful. And, speaking from my own experience here in Songstuff, I think it also helps to get to know people around you, in some cases, possibly even on a personal level, being as the more you know about them, they better you can decide if they are worth working with, befriending, or listening too.

 

There is also the subject of referrals. Which, as far as I can tell, is something that very few people do, for some odd reason! Like, if somebody wants my advice, but I don't feel qualified enough to give them a proper response, then I will simply refer them to @john @Mahesh @Peggy or possibly to other community members, based on their interests.

 

If there would be one thing I hope people take from this, its that: We-Are-Not-Alone-In-Here! 👍

[john]

Good points VX.

 

On advice I would say, if you get advice, test it. Where you can, take test method and results back to the original advisor and check you applied the advice correctly. It could be that their advice simply wouldn’t work for you in your circumstance with your goals. That is good for them to know.

[Jac]

46 minutes ago, VoiceEx said:

I've received all sorts of advice over the years. Both from seasoned producers, accomplished musicians, songwriters etc, but also from hobbyists and from people who work in all sorts of industries. As such, Its impossible for me to point out 'just' a few words of advice, being as even an oversimplification of the sheer volume of that, could probably make for string of threads. You could say that I learned from a lot people, and not only from musicians.

That being said, in terms of evaluating who (or what) to listen too, I can give you a good general direction to my approach and explain one of the metrics I start with. Don't worry, I won't go too deep, and only briefly touch on initial interpersonal aspects of it.

As a rule of thumb, I usually go about my business by challenging what I'm told and testing what I'm being told. And before I will even begin consider listening to someone, I will carefully examine what their saying, cross reference what their saying, run that by people who I -do trust, and compare everything they said to whatever I can find about their body of work. And If I decide to follow someone's advice, they are going to have to impress me first (on a multitude of facets, many of which I haven't even mentioned), and prove to me through more then just their knowledge, that there is value in seeking out their council and following their advice.

 

I know that may sound a bit harsh or judgemental, but its important to factor in all the practicalities involved. After all, if I do decide to follow someone's advice, in most cases, that is an action that could potentially cost me: time, money, energy, resources, or whatever else. Which means I have to be very careful, all the time.

 

Not to mention, everybody wants something, and there is no shortage of scammers out there. In addition, there is also the subject of an individual area's expertise. I mean, yeah, any good producer can give you useful advice, regardless of anything. However, in terms of, lets say, musical arrangements, sound engineering, instruments (etc), there are certain production directions which are more relevant to their respective niche. You're more likely to get useful advice from people who excel in their fields, then you would from people who simply dabble with what you're doing.

 

What I'm trying to say is, when it comes to advice, its important to keep an open mind, but its also equally important to be mindful. And, speaking from my own experience here in Songstuff, I think it also helps to get to know people around you, in some cases, possibly even on a personal level, being as the more you know about them, they better you can decide if they are worth working with, befriending, or listening too.

 

There is also the subject of referrals. Which, as far as I can tell, is something that very few people do, for some odd reason! Like, if somebody wants my advice, but I don't feel qualified enough to give them a proper response, then I will simply refer them to @john @Mahesh @Peggy or possibly to other community members, based on their interests.

 

If there would be one thing I hope people take from this, its that: We-Are-Not-Alone-In-Here! 👍

That's such good advice.

and so true about to look out for scammers. l'm forever appalled how some in the music industry scam Artists, and sadly i'm reading it's getting worse.

l wanted to open this debate for that reason. There are mountains of info on youtube about the scammers in the music industry and when l read the comments it was so sad to read how many new in the music business had indeed fell prey. They all said, 'do your homework on the business'.

Sounds logical but l was shocked at how many didnt do that. l read in the comment on youtube how many were so scammed because they trusted too easily, They just had a dream and thought ' that's it'

If only life was that simple. Many Artist of the past can tell us how they got ripped off.

So my advice to new ones in the music business.. 'do your home work'

 

Edited March 8, 2023 by Jac

[VoiceEx]

21 hours ago, john said:

Good points VX.

 

On advice I would say, if you get advice, test it. Where you can, take test method and results back to the original advisor and check you applied the advice correctly. It could be that their advice simply wouldn’t work for you in your circumstance with your goals. That is good for them to know.

 

Absolutely. I always document everything and I conduct testing very carefully, through constant back and forth communication with the advisor. Otherwise, it wouldn't be efficient and scientific. After all, the whole point of testing something is to produce different kind's of comparable results, and then systematically work shopping things, together. Its a partnership, not a contest.

[Jac]

48 minutes ago, VoiceEx said:

 

Absolutely. I always document everything and I conduct testing very carefully, through constant back and forth communication with the advisor. Otherwise, it wouldn't be efficient and scientific. After all, the whole point of testing something is to produce different kind's of comparable results, and then systematically work shopping things, together. Its a partnership, not a contest.

yes, new Artist need to only deal with trusted people. l guess they need to start networking first with trusted friends. It must be so hard to get into the business from scratch. Iv just read on you tube a guy who has lost over a £1000 in the past and he still fell for a scam a few days ago and lost £60..then another asked for £250 registration fee, when then Artist asked for more detail and said he thought it was a scam they removed him by blocking any more contacts by email and phone !!

l hope this discussion get more participants to exchange experience so Artists can help each other on a safe forum like this.

[VoiceEx]

22 hours ago, Jac said:

That's such good advice.

and so true about to look out for scammers. l'm forever appalled how some in the music industry scam Artists, and sadly i'm reading it's getting worse.

l wanted to open this debate for that reason. There are mountains of info on youtube about the scammers in the music industry and when l read the comments it was so sad to read how many new in the music business had indeed fell prey. They all said, 'do your homework on the business'.

Sounds logical but l was shocked at how many didnt do that. l read in the comment on youtube how many were so scammed because they trusted too easily, They just had a dream and thought ' that's it'

If only life was that simple. Many Artist of the past can tell us how they got ripped off.

So my advice to new ones in the music business.. 'do your home work'

 

 

@Jac Speaking of scammers, let me show you something. There is a very interesting article about how a young artist named Ren was recently targeted by a hacking group called Anonymous, and what sort of cyber-bullying campaign they launched against him.

 

You can check it out here. I believe that @john @Mahesh @Glammerocity @McnaughtonPark have also heard his music, just to name a few.

 

Now, here is a question:

Did you just click on a a recommendation by somebody you think you know? Or have you just been baited to enter a malicious website? Have you examined the UTRL off hand? Would you have thought about that direction, had I not provided any context? Think about it! 😅

 

That's just one mock example as to why I always encourage people to conduct online research in a safe, productive, and informative way.

[Jac]

One theme l seem to be reading about is Artists to  go Independent, and to do their own promotions.

Do as many gigs as they can to promote themselves. Sounds good advice but must be so hard without a trusted manager if they decide to get one. A good  trusted record label seems to be getting harder to find. lv found that some record labels will  smooth talk them , then give the say £500,000 with deal and the Artist forgets it just a Loan !! Plus the label expects the Artist to use the money on the people they recommend which invariably turns out to be people working for the record label !! So the loan is going back into the record labels pockets. This is just the tip of the iceberg.

 

Has anyone on here had bad ( or good ) experience with a record label without giving names (we dont want lawsuits lol )   just their experience of dealing with them

Edited March 9, 2023 by Jac

[Glammerocity]

On 3/9/2023 at 11:33 AM, Jac said:

 

Has anyone on here had bad ( or good ) experience with a record label without giving names (we dont want lawsuits lol )   just their experience of dealing with them

 

I've mentioned it before so I'll try to be brief:

 

I met a singer through a friend, so we worked on demos together in my bedroom. I recorded his songs and he sang mine. His demos got interest from Virgin's local A&R guy, so we put a band together.  We got interest from a number of labels very quickly. We weren't wet behind the ears and it was unspoken but we understood they were his songs so his deal. We knew The Proclaimers had taken a small deal and paid it back quickly, which is why they only recorded when they wanted to and weren't on the album-tour-album treadmill. So that was our plan, best-laid and about to gang a-gley, as the bard once noted.

 

I don't know if it was the money being offered or just the label he eventually chose to sign with smooth-talking him but the plan went out the window. The manager was also probably working against him to up his commission - he eventually had to pay his manager's VAT bill, which I heard second-hand amounted to £38,000. It was the wrong label. They'd had a few hits with some acts but they didn't have bands on their label. They used session musicians on their albums. Their sound was too slick for what we were doing. Imagine Van Morrison being given the Terence Trent D'Arby treatment.

 

So once the deal was signed, the band was "let go." He was sent off to Windmill Lane in Dublin, with top session musicians and a name producer. They didn't pay for a tour support, he went out on tour with the same expensive session guys, playing the same small venues we'd done, which will not cover Sting's guitarist's fee. That would've also come out of his advance.

 

The album flopped and he was dropped. 

 

As I understand it, advances don't have to be paid back if you're dropped unless you're picked up by another company, which then has to pay that debt. They'd thrown so much money at the album, a video and the advance (most of it to be recoupable from royalties), so maybe the other companies who'd initially chased us lost interest and I'm guessing the demise of the band which created the buzz and subsequent album didn't help convince them otherwise.

 

The label died in 2002. I like to think the money they blew on him contributed to that.

 

For further reading, I can recommend the article Courtney Love wrote for Salon on what's actually in one of those million dollar recording deals.

 

https://www.salon.com/2000/06/14/love_7/

[Mahesh]

Oh yeah. There's a lot of people out there who give away unsolicited advice with passion. I've had all kinds of people come up to me after a gig or at some social gathering with things to say. Some are interesting, some useful but a lot of them without context, experience or understanding. There's been times where veteran musicians and record label A&R/ex-ceos suggest things that were just not objectively insightful. 

 

Advice without understanding who it's being given to is so limited in its use. Each artist is in their own stage of creative & career development. It wouldn't have any context if it didn't align with the real world practicalities of the artist. It would either be inaccurate information or at the most, an untested anecdote.

 

Its been useful having people like @john around who's seen me evolve as an artist and had the acumen to offer sensible and practical advice. I've also had the pleasure and fortune of working with some incredible musician friends in the past decade who've had great influence on me. 

 

"Work with what you have, and make it work"

 

Chasing ideals or hopes aren't useful. Even all you have is nothing, it's a humbling place to start; and to learn how it gets from there to something bigger. There's a healthy dose of curiosity and questioning within this environment as opposed to basing your process on idealistic expectations and lofty goals which bring constant disappointment. 

 

 

"If you are here for the long run, be yourself"

 

Seems so cliché but damn, there's so much to dive into here. Trends come and go, but YOU and your musical messages remain. It's a creative footprint you leave behind however small or big/good or bad to the people who knew you. Like your own personal discography if you'd like to think of it that way. It's your story, your opinions on things in life, your thoughts and contemplations. It's a life-long musical learning process, a commitment you chose out of your own will purely through fascination and curiosity for the art. You cannot or wouldn't want to reduce that into a bunch of numbers and materialistic goals. It just doesn't feel as fulfilling. 

 

This advice has been very central to my functioning as an artist. I like to keep it that way even if it means I don't get to release music as often or make as many fans that a marketing formula can get me. Having said that, I do believe marketing and brand development is an extremely useful process TO being yourself. It helps you in understanding how to hone who you want to be and who you want your audiences to be. 

 

 

 

[Mahesh]

On 3/9/2023 at 4:24 PM, VoiceEx said:

 

@Jac Speaking of scammers, let me show you something. There is a very interesting article about how a young artist named Ren was recently targeted by a hacking group called Anonymous, and what sort of cyber-bullying campaign they launched against him.

 

You can check it out here. I believe that @john @Mahesh @Glammerocity @McnaughtonPark have also heard his music, just to name a few.

 

Now, here is a question:

Did you just click on a a recommendation by somebody you think you know? Or have you just been baited to enter a malicious website? Have you examined the UTRL off hand? Would you have thought about that direction, had I not provided any context? Think about it! 😅

 

That's just one mock example as to why I always encourage people to conduct online research in a safe, productive, and informative way.

 

I fell for it. HAHAHA Would you believe I started searching on Google as well?! Ren is SUCH an incredible artist though! One of the best finds of the year.  

[VoiceEx]

On 3/14/2023 at 7:00 PM, Mahesh said:

Its been useful having people like @john around who's seen me evolve as an artist and had the acumen to offer sensible and practical advice. I've also had the pleasure and fortune of working with some incredible musician friends in the past decade who've had great influence on me. 

 

You know, @Mahesh I don't know too much about your experience with @john, and, unfortunately, I'm not yet in a position where I can start doing whatever I want or sharing whatever I want.

 

However, I can tell you, that, had not taken the initiative and spoken with him, and as well looked into some other things, then I'm pretty sure that I might have lost all interest in sharing my personal passion project publicly, after my retirement.

 

This is something that John has already done for me, just by doing what come's naturally for him. Practical knowledge and useful tools are alot more commonplace than people think. Authenticity, however, genuinely wanting people to succeed, now THAT is a rare quality and a cause which I morally stand by and fully support.

 

I know that some people like to complain that "content creation killed art". When in reality, nothing could be further from the truth. And I firmly believe that SF has the ability to truly help people to see what the future can holds for artists.

[VoiceEx]

On 3/14/2023 at 7:02 PM, Mahesh said:

 

I fell for it. HAHAHA Would you believe I started searching on Google as well?! Ren is SUCH an incredible artist though! One of the best finds of the year.  

 

Now that I did not except 😅 though hell yeah OMG Ren is f*cking phenomenal! I think that the world NEEDS more artists that actually want to push the envelope! He's outstanding!

[john]

1 hour ago, VoiceEx said:

 

Now that I did not except 😅 though hell yeah OMG Ren is f*cking phenomenal! I think that the world NEEDS more artists that actually want to push the envelope! He's outstanding!

He is indeed. The thing is, he is talented… but no more so than many artists. What he is is creative, courageous and very committed.
 

If you really want to evoke change in and with your music here is some advice:

 

• Don’t be afraid to try new things
• Be 100% committed to expressing yourself through all media
• Explore yourself, your world, and your imagination through your writing, performance and production
• Keep moving, keep creating, as much of every day that you can, by any means possible
• Welcome criticism, use it as fuel to grow
• Surround yourself with similarly motivated people
• Build a team, a circle of people you can work with
• Set ambitious goals and commit yourself to achieving them
• No excuses. Work with what you have and make it work.
• If you plan to be here for the long haul, be yourself or at least a larger version of yourself
• Think ahead and be selective in what you do
• When you decide to do something, be 100% committed to making it happen

 

and more generally:

 

• Enjoy the journey
• Be involved in other people’s journeys and celebrate their successes
• Find people who inspire you
• Inspire others by being the best version of you at all times
• Mistakes are only truly mistakes when you fail to learn from them
• Don’t stand still
• Forgive yourself, when it counts
• Learn from others and teach others as naturally as breathing
• Trust in small increments
• Keep finding ways to overcome your doubts

[VoiceEx]

5 hours ago, john said:

He is indeed. The thing is, he is talented… but no more so than many artists. What he is is creative, courageous and very committed.

 

I absolutely agree, and I really enjoyed listening to his songs. I think he does a fantastic job playing off the nature of his music, using his strongest attributes and turning certain vulnerabilities into his strength. That takes more than just talent, and I salute him for that!

 

5 hours ago, john said:

If you really want to evoke change in and with your music here is some advice:

 

I agree with everything you said, though I want to touch on something specific.

 

5 hours ago, john said:

• Keep finding ways to overcome your doubts

 

I think that a good way to handle uncertainty is too apply research and identify where the problems stem from. That way, even if a person lacks in certain areas, they are able to systematically acquire more skills, tools and knowledge, which will in turn help them to learn how to improve their results. And.. better results often lead to more confidence.

Edited March 16, 2023 by VoiceEx