Writing: Lyrics vs Poetry

[john]

Hi

 

This is a fairly common consideration. There are many poets who start writing lyrics, and vice versa.

 

They are related, but there is an essential difference. Poems essentially stand alone, although there are some more entangled poetry performances. The difference isn’t rocket science. In songs, words and music work have a relationship. They modify each other. They work together. They work against each other. As a writer we have to manage that relationship. We stick our heads in the sand to our own detriment.

 

Some aspects of writing are guidelines, with decisions and consequences. Some consequences are more significant than others. They are NOT rules invented by a draconian enforcer. They are simply “If this, then that”.

 

Equally, there are some immutable facts. You can treat any art form  with respect, learning from the experience of others who practice that art form, or people who have walked the same path as you experiencing similar issues, you can open minded-ly learn from your own experiments…  or you can try to force that art form to conform to your concept of what you believe it to be. Writers encounter this, whether they come from poetry, writing rap, or come from a composer or music performer background. It also happens to be one aspect of writing where we can lack self awareness. It’s something that membership of a community can help with, if you let it.

 

I guess it depends on who you are and why you write.
 

I write words and music. I was already a fledgling musician when as a young child I tried writing my first story (two sides of an A6 sheet, about aliens arriving on earth, encountering a bus station and people, getting a little confused about earth and then going home!). I just turned 4. No doubt I had created stories before, but this was the first I had taken the time to write. I still have it somewhere. I started trying to write poems before I tried writing lyrics, however I was far from an expert in anything when I began writing songs. I was naive as a composer, but that is ok. I was happy to express myself, experiment and talk to others. Unfortunately Songstuff didn’t exist. Damn!

 

I’ve been lucky. As a writer and composer I have no idea how many writers I have helped, but I have direct experience of trying to help a lot. I am the lucky one. I have learned from that experience. I hope that has made me a more rounded writer.

 

I say all that to give context to my comments.

 

I will focus on the transition from poet to lyricist, particularly those with little or no music performance or composition experience, as songs are the primary focus of the site.

 

1, poets need to consider that the guidelines for writing songs are not the same as those for writing poems. 
 

2, there are conventions, and forms that are designed to help you. They help you with specific genres and with songwriting over all.

 

3, there are concepts and ideas that poetry and lyrics share, however lyrical concepts and ideas are also subtly modified by their relationship with music.

 

4, there are things in poetry that might be acceptable, that would not be acceptable in songs, or within conversational spoken language. This is largely because lyrics are often conversational in nature.

 

5, lyrics often are encountered as performances within a context of a performance between 3 minutes and 6 minutes. Poetry, on the other hand is usually encountered on a page, and sometimes as a verbal poetry performance. Either way, read or heard, poems do not have the same, regular, heavy time restrictions.

 

6, The rhythm of words and music have a strong relationship. Ideally they should be complimentary rhythms, and if they jar, they should be sparingly used, for creative reasons.

 

7, Language: If you deviate from common parlance, street phrasing, you are likely to use words and phrasing that have an archaic feel.

 

8, Language: if you use unusual, more complicated or flowery language your song runs the risk of alienating your audience. Often it makes lyrics feel intellectual. Slightly cold.

 

9. Music is a whole bunch of additional modifiers and nuance on top of the words you write. It is a good idea to understand them, however you achieve it.

 

10, Learning is an eternal process. Be open minded.

 

I generally recommend taking up an instrument to gain insight, however simply talking to other writers and finding out their perspective on songwriting.

 

I could write a lot more… but I thought we could use this as a topic to gather crossover advice for new lyricists.

 

So, dust off your best advice and post it here. Maybe some board lyricist will learn from our nuggets!

 

Cheers

 

John 

 

[MikeRobinson]

Sounds like a very interesting introduction, so I'll just "have a go."

 

A "lyric" is a completely functional genre of "poetry" which will only be heard in the context of the song of which it is a part, but also with its rhythm.  (And, "as 'the song' might be," that "rhythm" might well be "irregular.")  Thus, the "lyric" is "an inseparable part of" "the song."

 

A "lyric" is also remarkably short!

 

So, to my way of thinking, even though most "lyrics" are "poetic," a functional "lyric" actually isn't "a poem."

 

"A poem," if you will, "doesn't have a job to do."  It doesn't have "mechanical constraints."  It is free to "pause at a junction on a snowy evening" entirely on its own terms.

 

Whereas, a "lyric," although customarily "poetic" in nature, does have a very definite "purpose," and is very rigidly constrained to fulfill that purpose.  You could never take Robert Frost's immortal words and "just by snapping your fingers, 'set them to music.'"  You would necessarily have to re-work them, and I'm fairly sure that you would not like the result.

 

You simply cannot "read a lyric" on the Internet without also "humming the song."  Without the song, lyrics often make very little sense.

Edited March 8, 2023 by MikeRobinson

[john]

Thanks Mike!

 

I should also add to my previous post that most of what I mentioned are guidelines and therefor subject to change with fashion, time, genre and with application of adventurous and skilful people.

 

Also, don’t let fear stop you. Embrace the adventure. Try new stuff.

 

Learning requires at least some mistakes. Keeping learning means a steady stream of mistakes. Not only do you have to keep making mistakes, you need to know you keep making mistakes, and still have massive balls enough to not only get up and make mistakes but to keep getting up and making mistakes.

 

A great way to keep making mistakes is…. Drum roll please… to keep taking risks.

 

Lyrics in relation to music and song are the classic definition of the whole being greater than the sum of the parts.

[Jac]

9 hours ago, john said:

Hi

 

This is a fairly common consideration. There are many poets who start writing lyrics, and vice versa.

 

They are related, but there is an essential difference. Poems essentially stand alone, although there are some more entangled poetry performances. The difference isn’t rocket science. In songs, words and music work have a relationship. They modify each other. They work together. They work against each other. As a writer we have to manage that relationship. We stick our heads in the sand to our own detriment.

 

Some aspects of writing are guidelines, with decisions and consequences. Some consequences are more significant than others. They are NOT rules invented by a draconian enforcer. They are simply “If this, then that”.

 

Equally, there are some immutable facts. You can treat any art form  with respect, learning from the experience of others who practice that art form, or people who have walked the same path as you experiencing similar issues, you can open minded-ly learn from your own experiments…  or you can try to force that art form to conform to your concept of what you believe it to be. Writers encounter this, whether they come from poetry, writing rap, or come from a composer or music performer background. It also happens to be one aspect of writing where we can lack self awareness. It’s something that membership of a community can help with, if you let it.

 

I guess it depends on who you are and why you write.
 

I write words and music. I was already a fledgling musician when as a young child I tried writing my first story (two sides of an A6 sheet, about aliens arriving on earth, encountering a bus station and people, getting a little confused about earth and then going home!). I just turned 4. No doubt I had created stories before, but this was the first I had taken the time to write. I still have it somewhere. I started trying to write poems before I tried writing lyrics, however I was far from an expert in anything when I began writing songs. I was naive as a composer, but that is ok. I was happy to express myself, experiment and talk to others. Unfortunately Songstuff didn’t exist. Damn!

 

I’ve been lucky. As a writer and composer I have no idea how many writers I have helped, but I have direct experience of trying to help a lot. I am the lucky one. I have learned from that experience. I hope that has made me a more rounded writer.

 

I say all that to give context to my comments.

 

I will focus on the transition from poet to lyricist, particularly those with little or no music performance or composition experience, as songs are the primary focus of the site.

 

1, poets need to consider that the guidelines for writing songs are not the same as those for writing poems. 
 

2, there are conventions, and forms that are designed to help you. They help you with specific genres and with songwriting over all.

 

3, there are concepts and ideas that poetry and lyrics share, however lyrical concepts and ideas are also subtly modified by their relationship with music.

 

4, there are things in poetry that might be acceptable, that would not be acceptable in songs, or within conversational spoken language. This is largely because lyrics are often conversational in nature.

 

5, lyrics often are encountered as performances within a context of a performance between 3 minutes and 6 minutes. Poetry, on the other hand is usually encountered on a page, and sometimes as a verbal poetry performance. Either way, read or heard, poems do not have the same, regular, heavy time restrictions.

 

6, The rhythm of words and music have a strong relationship. Ideally they should be complimentary rhythms, and if they jar, they should be sparingly used, for creative reasons.

 

7, Language: If you deviate from common parlance, street phrasing, you are likely to use words and phrasing that have an archaic feel.

 

8, Language: if you use unusual, more complicated or flowery language your song runs the risk of alienating your audience. Often it makes lyrics feel intellectual. Slightly cold.

 

9. Music is a whole bunch of additional modifiers and nuance on top of the words you write. It is a good idea to understand them, however you achieve it.

 

10, Learning is an eternal process. Be open minded.

 

I generally recommend taking up an instrument to gain insight, however simply talking to other writers and finding out their perspective on songwriting.

 

I could write a lot more… but I thought we could use this as a topic to gather crossover advice for new lyricists.

 

So, dust off your best advice and post it here. Maybe some board lyricist will learn from our nuggets!

 

Cheers

 

John 

 

l find the whole debate about lyric writing and poetry writing fascinating. 

 

To me the best songwriters are the ones who incorporate poetry in their work. Some do, some dont. And to my my mind the poetry in lyric writing is getting less and less nowadays. Perhaps that why l dont like much of todays music in the charts. Something just seems to be not be quite right about today's lyrics that are in the charts.

I'm only mentioning those lyrics in the charts  because they are the ones that are only getting the exposure. So l guess it's back to the argument of the music industry and their use of algorithm. To me, that's all wrong and it's making me sad.

Is lyric writing a dying Art ? l dont think so ,but l do fear the algorithm in lyric writing is trying to kill it.

 But l know i'm not the only one who thinks it.

 

The songwriter l aspire to is Kate Bush. She is to my mind a prolific poet.

l find her lyric's are sensual poetry.

Past songwriters were sensual songwriters, but  

l havent yet found any other lyric writer as sensual lyric writing as Kate. Her '50 words for Snow' album and the track 'Misty' is very sensual. As is lot of her other tracks.

l have every one of Kate's albums,  and i'm forever studying her work.

l love to write poetry but l like to read music lyric more. In fact l read more lyrics than l read poetry. But i'm always looking for the poetry in the lyric's. l don't have to look very far in Kate's lyric writing. She's a genius.

She has mastered the rhythm (and sensual)  of the written word to music.  Many poetry is sensual but she put it to music like l havent found in other songwriters. How does she do it, l wish l knew. 

[john]

20 minutes ago, Jac said:

l find the whole debate about lyric writing and poetry writing fascinating. 

 

To me the best songwriters are the ones who incorporate poetry in their work. Some do, some dont. And to my my mind the poetry in lyric writing is getting less and less nowadays. Perhaps that why l dont like much of todays music in the charts. Something just seems to be not be quite right about today's lyrics that are in the charts.

I'm only mentioning those lyrics in the charts  because they are the ones that are only getting the exposure. So l guess it's back to the argument of the music industry and their use of algorithm. To me, that's all wrong and it's making me sad.

Is lyric writing a dying Art ? l dont think so ,but l do fear the algorithm in lyric writing is trying to kill it.

 But l know i'm not the only one who thinks it.

 

The songwriter l aspire to is Kate Bush. She is to my mind a prolific poet.

l find her lyric's are sensual poetry.

Past songwriters were sensual songwriters, but  

l havent yet found any other lyric writer as sensual lyric writing as Kate. Her '50 words for Snow' album and the track 'Misty' is very sensual. As is lot of her other tracks.

l have every one of Kate's albums,  and i'm forever studying her work.

l love to write poetry but l like to read music lyric more. In fact l read more lyrics than l read poetry. But i'm always looking for the poetry in the lyric's. l don't have to look very far in Kate's lyric writing. She's a genius.

She has mastered the rhythm (and sensual)  of the written word to music.  Many poetry is sensual but she put it to music like l havent found in other songwriters. How does she do it, l wish l knew. 

I agree about poetry within lyrics, after all, like Mike referred to, lyrics are a specialised application of poetry. Writers like Kate Bush integrate words and music so well. They genuinely push at the boundaries, stretching everything, including the connection between words and music.
 

Still, they know, based upon countless hours of practice, and hundreds if not thousands of draft songs, just where to stretch and where to follow form, rhythm and rhyme.

 

Also, within their music genre, they get a feel for what sort of language, word choice and phrasing to use. Let’s just say, certain combinations are a high risk. For example writing in archaic English, with Shakespearean phrasing, in a song targeting a pop audience. It is just highly unlikely to connect.

 

For me, I want lyrics to connect, to have power, a depth of emotion, to mean something, to offer something unique, original and yes with a certain poetic depth while remaining relatable and to some degree ambiguous.

 

There are many lyrical styles but personally I like some ambiguity. If done right it aids connection between writer, performer and listener, as the completion of meaning for the listener is something written between their ears at the time of listening.

[Jac]

On 3/8/2023 at 11:28 AM, john said:

I agree about poetry within lyrics, after all, like Mike referred to, lyrics are a specialised application of poetry. Writers like Kate Bush integrate words and music so well. They genuinely push at the boundaries, stretching everything, including the connection between words and music.
 

Still, they know, based upon countless hours of practice, and hundreds if not thousands of draft songs, just where to stretch and where to follow form, rhythm and rhyme.

 

Also, within their music genre, they get a feel for what sort of language, word choice and phrasing to use. Let’s just say, certain combinations are a high risk. For example writing in archaic English, with Shakespearean phrasing, in a song targeting a pop audience. It is just highly unlikely to connect.

 

For me, I want lyrics to connect, to have power, a depth of emotion, to mean something, to offer something unique, original and yes with a certain poetic depth while remaining relatable and to some degree ambiguous.

 

There are many lyrical styles but personally I like some ambiguity. If done right it aids connection between writer, performer and listener, as the completion of meaning for the listener is something written between their ears at the time of listening.

 

l agree, there are so many lyrical styles. l feel like you, l want to write ( and seem to write) with words that are very much ( or perhaps) with too much of my work open to interpretation.

going back to Kate Bush song 'Misty' when l first listened to it l formed my interpretation of it, l was really shocked when l read up what her interpretation of it was when she wrote it.

Her lyic writing can go from pure interpretations like' Army Dreamers ,Women's work  or Babooshka '  to mixed interpretations of some of her other works. Led Zeppelin was the same. l like that form of lyric writing. l want to be left guessing. l dont like the' tell all' in lyrics.  l like 'Iron Man' by black Sabbath. Its lyrics are not what they seem, very clever writing. l think that's where lyric writing and poetry can be so different. Poetry can be  so precise but lyrics can ,if careful crafted, be open to interpretation and l like that. l love to read song reviews to get what journalist think the songs are about. Invariably they can be so different from mine, and l like that.

[john]

33 minutes ago, Jac said:

 

l agree, there are so many lyrical styles. l feel like you, l want to write ( and seem to write) with words that are very much ( or perhaps) with too much of my work open to interpretation.

going back to Kate Bush song 'Misty' when l first listened to it l formed my interpretation of it, l was really shocked when l read up what her interpretation of it was when she wrote it.

Her lyic writing can go from pure interpretations like' Army Dreamers ,Women's work  or Babooshka '  to mixed interpretations of some of her other works. Led Zeppelin was the same. l like that form of lyric writing. l want to be left guessing. l dont like the' tell all' in lyrics.  l like 'Iron Man' by black Sabbath. Its lyrics are not what they seem, very clever writing. l think that's where lyric writing and poetry can be so different. Poetry can be  so precise but lyrics can ,if careful crafted, be open to interpretation and l like that. l love to read song reviews to get what journalist think the songs are about. Invariably they can be so different from mine, and l like that.

It’s choosing an abstraction level, not just for the lyric itself, but for individual elements within the song. It gives a perspective on what is going on but also leaves loads of room for interpretation. Using metaphors and similes takes that abstraction even further. Like you I love Zep, Floyd, Radiohead, Kate Bush, Bowie etc. They all have a good abstraction level in many of their lyrics.

 

[Jac]

David Bowie was a prolific poetry reader. His early career and aspirations are very interesting reading. Also his ideas for writing lyrics are very interesting. He says he would put a group of single words into a  box then take them out one at a time to make a sentence then keep re arranging them to make lyrics. l havent tried that yet, l think ll give it a go lol. Here's one of his lyric poetry work.

David Bowie – Eight Line Poem Lyrics | Genius Lyrics

 

Edited March 10, 2023 by Jac

[Jac]

l feel iv got too much imagination when l write. l think it gets in the way of my lyric writing. It seems ok for my poetry but l get frustrated when trying to condense them into lyrics. l know what l want to say but it keep coming out a lot of the time too poetic. l used to be on a well established poetry forum for many years. l was told by the professionals there that l was good and that l should explore and expand my work and enter some of the sites competitions. l never did as it lyric writing l wanted to do. l got so frustrated l threw tons of poems, a novel, stories and childrens stories  away when we moved. l so regret it now. l had sent some of my manuscripts off and l even had an editor phone me and we had a long discussion about my work. He told me to keep on writing as l had potential and said thats why he rang me. l have absolutely no writer's block for lyric ideas, it's just the imagery of the words keeps getting in the way too much. Because it's all there, in my head, l know there are good lyrics waiting to come out.

[Jac]

21 hours ago, john said:

It’s choosing an abstraction level, not just for the lyric itself, but for individual elements within the song. It gives a perspective on what is going on but also leaves loads of room for interpretation. Using metaphors and similes takes that abstraction even further. Like you I love Zep, Floyd, Radiohead, Kate Bush, Bowie etc. They all have a good abstraction level in many of their lyrics.

 

ContactMusic wrote in 2020 a list of Artists who wrote lyrics from poetry. The like's of Iron Maiden, Stevie Nicks, Joni Mitchel etc. Joni wrote her song 'If' purely from Rudyard Kipling's 1910 poem, with just a few of Joni's own lines. l love Joni Mitchel work. l know Kate Bush came from a musical family and her brother John was an established poet, so it must have all influenced her when growing up. 

Question..can a lyric writer have too much  of an imagination ?

[Charlie Bernstein]

On 3/10/2023 at 5:36 AM, Jac said:

ContactMusic wrote in 2020 a list of Artists who wrote lyrics from poetry. The like's of Iron Maiden, Stevie Nicks, Joni Mitchel etc. Joni wrote her song 'If' purely from Rudyard Kipling's 1910 poem, with just a few of Joni's own lines. l love Joni Mitchel work. l know Kate Bush came from a musical family and her brother John was an established poet, so it must have all influenced her when growing up. 

Question..can a lyric writer have too much  of an imagination ?

No.