"Musician and Youtube" - the topic

[john]

1 hour ago, VoiceEx said:

 

I couldn't agree more 👍

 

I would also like to add something on a similar vein, which I think alot of people don't take into account. This applies not only on Youtube, but in all platforms in general.

 

Even if a person has all the theoretical knowledge in the world, they are still going to have to work hard to gain enough experience and learn how to apply that knowledge in front of an audience. Which is a very, very different ballgame then just putting their music out there. And I think this is an important area which rarely gets touched on.

 

To put that in perspective, I happen to know quite a few musicians that are very good at making music, but they can't hold a live stream for more then 30 minutes tops, or even manage a half decent reaction video.

Yep.  agreed.
 

Video and livestream, particularly YouTube are thee discovery method and platform.
 

To naysayers I would say, ignore it if you want, it’s your music. Your prerogative. If you want to hold that opinion, that’s fine.

 

@buckoff, I get that it’s your lived experience. On the business of music you come across as deeply negative, angry, bitter even. I probably would be too had I invested what you did, made the decisions you did, based upon the advice you had received, and had the outcome you seem to have had. However it is important to remember it is your lived experience because of the circumstances you encountered, the people you partnered up with and ultimately your contribution caused by the decisions you made.
 

You followed your path, towards your goals, taking your opportunities and you made your mistakes.

 

That YouTube was a tool you used, does not mean all YouTube users will have your experience. There are a great many ways to use YouTube. There are a great number of ways YouTube can fit with an artist’s tactics and strategies, and a great number of those strategies and tactics for that matter.

 

The rest of the world is not in your circumstances. They are largely not partnered with the people you partnered with, and they will make their own decisions based upon the opportunities and information in front of them.

 

They will follow their path, towards their goals, taking their opportunities and making their own mistakes.

 

I get that you might feel quite negative looking towards your musical future based upon your musical past, I sympathise, I really do, but please don’t assume that everyone will suffer that same fate. If anything, help people not to make the mistakes you made with some constructive advice. “We’re doomed” is not all that helpful.

 

Personally, I hope you find a much better future for your music than the one you appear to predict with your currently voiced highly negative perspective. I hope you reach and attain a realistic view that you can be happy with, and have a much, much happier journey than you have had so far.

 

 

 

 

 

[VoiceEx]

On 6/6/2023 at 4:06 AM, john said:

Video and livestream, particularly YouTube are thee discovery method and platform.

 

Practically impossible to miss, or even to avoid for that matter 😅

 

To the naysayers I would say: Stop acting so precious and give it a try 👍 But give it a REAL try.

[VoiceEx]

On 6/6/2023 at 6:52 AM, buckoff said:

Ok I read all these posts , But nothing to fix Youtube channels and make money 

I've been thru countless Gurus , they all fail 

 

I don't typically interject in people's conversations unless I am being tagged, but I want to share something with you about the fundamentals of content creation on Youtube. This goes not only to you, but also to @Palmiro . I would also like to point out that @john has provided a great deal of useful insight, which anyone could put to use if they wanted too.

 

Also, just to clarify, i'm not trying to put anyone particular on the spot. However, if by some chance what i'm saying resonates with you, then I strongly recommend looking further into it. And if not, that's fine too 👍

 

So...

 

In terms of fundamentals, I think that if passion for making music or engaging with the audience plays no part in your driving force, and if you have no interest in creating content on a basis, then you shouldn't be a Youtuber. I'm saying this because the audience is not stupid. If a person attempts to jump on the Youtube bandwagon, thinking they could armchair their way into a small fortune, and with minimal effort no less, then they are going to be perceived as just another low effort content creator, and they are going to fail.

 

I would also like to make a similar point about financial investments in regards to managing your channel. Yes, you could pay experts to make all sorts of arrangement for you, or handle technical things for you. However, when you "hand over" such an excessive degree of control, when you are barely being involved, then you have effectively become a "hostage" in your own channel.

 

Think about it - If you don't know what's going on, whose to say that your content won't get misused, or even legally stolen from you. After all, there are as many sharks in the ocean, as there are backstabbers. And, on a similar vein, if everyone around you is doing everything 'for' you, if you are not the 'center' of your own channel, then.. why would the potentially greedy drones you hired "need" you?

 

This scenario might seem strange, but you'd be surprised at how quickly even "the talent" can get replaced. If your not spearheading your own projects. and if you are out of touch with your audience, then you have effectively reduced yourself to being just an official "autograph" (i.e a content creator on paper, but with little to no say over your content). You might not believe that this could happen, but It can.

 

What i'm trying to say is, and, this may ruffle some onlooking feathers, I think that if anybody wants to establish a trajectory for growing a Youtube channel, they simply can't afford to overlook the universally predominate practices on that platform. Dishing out music is just not enough, especially if your an unknown. That's the world we live in.

 

Again, nobody has to agree with me. I am no guru by any stretch of the imagination, nor have I ever spoken with one. In fact I think this whole guru concept is rather ridicules and antiquated, but that's just me. I also have quite a few strong opinions about people drowning content in stock footage, but that's a different discussion altogether 😅

Edited June 16, 2023 by VoiceEx

[VoiceEx]

19 minutes ago, buckoff said:

 its money to get there , I've tried everyone , 0 results . Well very little . I'm sure it can be done with the right guru 

 

No guru will create content for you. Though yeah I can go with what you said. Finding ways to reducing your spending is a good logical place to start. Though, being as I spoke of fundamentals, I would like to ask, which is of a higher priority for you: Making good music or making money? Remember, if your only dealing in absolutes, there is no middle ground. So which is it?

[VoiceEx]

15 minutes ago, buckoff said:

With 20 years studing with hit writers , I'm assuming like any buisness you would want to turn a profit , Why would I want to lose money on just decent songs ? . Makes no logical buisness sense 

 

So 20 years of other people telling you what to do. Well, has focusing on turning a profit from exploring that specific angel worked? Alot has changed in the last 20 years. Hit writers might be good at writing, but surely you realize that everything that comes afterwords falls into your hands. That was my point.

Edited June 16, 2023 by VoiceEx

[VoiceEx]

6 minutes ago, buckoff said:

No thats studing with Hit Writers , In Collge your studing with professors, Same thing , Yes your right their elusive on turning a profit 

 

Honestly, I haven't matriculated in music production in college. I studied different fields, nor have I ever followed any sort of guru or mentor.

 

That being said, that is just my own experience. May I ask, have any of these so called hit writers "fixed" your Youtube channel? Has anyone ever guided you on what to actually 'do' with your assets?

[john]

36 minutes ago, buckoff said:

With 20 years studing with hit writers , I'm assuming like any buisness you would want to turn a profit , Why would I want to lose money on just decent songs ? . Makes no logical buisness sense . Would you pay for 4 years of college and get out and go in the red ? Makes no sense . i'm not talking millions , Maybe 40k a year on real good plan 

 

Actually, there is a model where music, especially in the early stages of building your fan base, is a loss leader. Music is given for $0. That is simply recognising a modern reality… artists have many income streams possible that in previous years were not. Additionally, for many the established income streams do not make enough money. Low stream rates and piracy massively reduces music income. Even sync is under threat with production companies opting for cheap library music over bespoke to the extent that even established titles are now recalled to have their soundtracks replaced with library music.

Where music is given for free as a loss leader there are a number of options to monetise. For example, direct selling, incorporating bundles that include music, videos, fan experiences, unique content like interviews, acoustic performances, remixes, merch and a whole lot more. This model (and others) focuses on viewing the total fan value over their lifetime as a fan as far more important than the traditional model of broad targeting, brand awareness style promotion and immediate sales of unknown fans. 
 

It is just one model, built upon a simple two premises, predictability and scalability. Ie. Get something that works, a sales structure that you train on a training budget. Once you are getting the returns you want percentage wise you start to scale. This method starts on a dollar-a-day budget and it manages risk at all times, focusing on making earnings work for you early in the process, building lists of highly engaged “super fans”, so that you have a to scale profit-predictable model…entirely different from the standard big budget, high risk traditional model.

 

My point is that creativity needs to be applied by modern musicians to find income streams that are hard to replace… where the artist themselves is a key component.

 

The existing income streams from royalty and licenses may be less influential, but they are still a part of overall revenue, especially later in the cycle for the artist.

 

Writers get a share of broader income in this model. Every one’s a winner.

 

Possibilities exist.

 

Believe me, you have not tried everyone.

[john]

I’ll add, that is just one model. There are better models, worse, models that run solo, others that work together. My point is more that other possibilities exist that the same old tropes from largely vested interests and/or people who hitched their wagon to a specific team a long time ago and stuck with it, and now know no other way and are unwilling to try something different. They happily recite that their way is the only way, laughing at others… and yet other methods out perform theirs, for smaller artists particularly. In fact you highlight one of the key flaws in the old approach many many times. To do that (and only that) takes a load of money, a load of contacts, big balls, a drive to gamble and being resilient enough to recover from big losses.

[john]

50 minutes ago, buckoff said:

No I have not tried everyone , but alot man , it'll be awhile before I try more . Yes he probably needs a new way of approaching it . its been a nice debate , which I enjoy 

Probably wise to reflect, regroup etc. I far prefer thought experiments as a first line of investigation and learning while you take your time to make the right decisions for you. I appreciate there are good play books. The trouble is they are not unassailable gospels. Too many people apply them blindly or worse charge others who know less to apply them blindly, when they were never going to work for that artist/writer/producer. Probably the most common of these is to lift strategies that work for an artist with a $500k-$800k budget for a song (recording, mastering, video, marketing) as a pitch for a breaking artist, signed to a management company, label and publisher with an extensive contact list, and push it as the go to strategy for an artist/writer with a $5k budget and a minuscule contact list. That or a variant of that happens all the time. Ok, that’s fairly extreme, but you get what I mean. Yes, we can absolutely learn from such approaches, but we owe it to ourselves to be rigorous in our analysis and judgement. Way too much advice in the arts is compromised by blinkered experts creating even more blinkered apprentices.

 

Our greatest gift is our creativity followed by our judgement and our ability to listen and digest. Too many forget creativity and/or suspend our own critical thinking in favor of the opinions of others. A lack of knowledge and confidence no doubt plays it’s part.

 

Many think forums are of the past, while I think they are an essential tool. They promote debate. They allow concepts and implementations to be thoroughly examined from all angles by many minds. True, they are also only as good as the people that use them. Like any group of people or organisations, it takes a lot of sifting to find a nugget.

 

Personally, I hope Songstuff is a nugget (or a nugget enabler!) at least for some… but it won’t be for everybody, no matter how hard we try. At least if it can have people working together for our collective good as well as our own individual good it is much much better than everyone working away on their own with minimal exchange of ideas and too few truly weighing up ideas, and very little sharing of experience.

[john]

Exactly why you don’t try to compete with them. The model that works for independents is not this. For unknown or little known independents it is different again. 
 

Step away from music (with which you are pretty familiar) and the problem is obvious.

 

Unknown film maker making an independent movie. You don’t get A-list directors, screenplay, actors… a-list anything. First film? Not even b-list or c. Instead you find creative ways to live within your means and maximise your returns. You will not build Rome in a day.

 

New business as a builder. Business is largely repair. You don’t go out and get a fleet of brand new vans. You don’t hire on a staff of 100 with empty order books. You don’t sign on for a headquarters that you rent for $1M a year. You don’t get national TV ads for a local business. You don’t blow $100k on your TV Ad. You don’t set out with zero income but having committed to a cost base of $5M per year. You manage expectations with a realistic plan and cut your cloth accordingly.

 

In many industries, particularly music, you have to be cautious and consider if the person advising you is getting an undisclosed kickback, or if they have a conflict of interest or have another incentive to have you follow a particular course.

 

Transparency is key.

[john]

6 hours ago, VoiceEx said:

 

Honestly, I haven't matriculated in music production in college. I studied different fields, nor have I ever followed any sort of guru or mentor.

 

That being said, that is just my own experience. May I ask, have any of these so called hit writers "fixed" your Youtube channel? Has anyone ever guided you on what to actually 'do' with your assets?

I will say that there are some gurus worth their salt, however only a few and very very few that are both worthwhile and that I could afford. Most who describe themselves as gurus either aren’t or if they are they are but in a very narrow way. Often their advice is compromised by a conflict of interest or they have a vested interest.

[VoiceEx]

4 hours ago, buckoff said:

thats not their job , Theirs are essentials in writing the best song you can, Everyone needs a mentor , Every successful person has had one that I've read about . I need a guru mentor in Youtube , one wanted 5k and I do the work , 

 

Sadly i've never had the pleasure. Though I will agree that having one can be a huge help 👍 I don't know their going rates though.

[VoiceEx]

22 hours ago, buckoff said:

hit Writers ? No more then going to college for lets say 8 years , They're also in learning mode all the time on listening to trends ect . I have said this many times if you have a college degree , You have proven to have the learning skills to pick it up sooner on all they're teaching. its song after song after song after song after song , Finally it starts to sink in , Smarter you are its more quickly. Its IQ's . its $150.00 a hour to write one song , its $30.00 per critique it might take 6 to get it right , After awhile you wing it on your own , in my case 12 years of all that , You awaken the giant demons and all, No music you bury emathy hate all that jazz , Die as a nobody, What a midnite rant ,  I don't know how many times I put fist thru the wall trying to figure out songwritiing 

 

I was talking about mentor's going rates. But yeah I suppose that Hit writers strike at a similar vein. Though, man. That's a lot of dough to put upfront. Your probably not going to agree with what I have to say about tthat sorta practice 😅 Instead, may I ask, do you deem these expenses as a necessity?

[VoiceEx]

On 6/17/2023 at 6:06 AM, john said:

I will say that there are some gurus worth their salt, however only a few and very very few that are both worthwhile and that I could afford. Most who describe themselves as gurus either aren’t or if they are they are but in a very narrow way. Often their advice is compromised by a conflict of interest or they have a vested interest.

 

They sound like rare Pokemon 😅

 

Well, I have no doubt that there are "messiah levels" of Guru's out there which are worth the expense. Then again, since you said that the good one's are not very affordable, then in principle its a bit comparable to the decision of buying a new car. If the one you currently own breaks down, and is too expensive to fix, then it would make sense to buy a new one. But if it works just fine, that usually means that simply you want something better.

 

I know what your thinking: "Can you believe this fellow? Talk about low expectations! VX, you are one cheap bastard!". Which, granted, would be a statement I would neither confirm or deny! 🤣

 

Seriously though, I'm not knocking Guru's or anything of that sort. its just never really been my 'thing'.

Edited June 18, 2023 by VoiceEx

[VoiceEx]

22 minutes ago, buckoff said:

To learn how to write a hit song ? or decent song I should say . Its just a deep dive in learning how to approach on their skill set . Is it worth it ? I think so , But now were back on a ROI . SO its unvoidable not to feel was the cost worth it .

 

If making money is the only objective, then you wouldn't need a hit writer for that. That kind of money could be spent in all sorts of lucrative and creative ways, and produce more then just a ROI.

 

You know, i've seen you talk about "the race" quite a few times and I get what your version of "success" might look like. It makes me wonder about something. What happens if we took producing 'hits' and making money out of the equation.

 

Does working on music make you happy?

Edited June 18, 2023 by VoiceEx

[VoiceEx]

8 minutes ago, buckoff said:

Why would I invest 20 years of my life and not expect to succed ? I do not think of money when writing a song , It enters the eqation after its been done . Happy ? I've doing this along time , Its love hate realtionship 

 

Though expectations and reality may not always be in alignment. After all, there are no guarantee's in music.

 

For example, there are kids out there who made viral hits and got insta-rich without even knowing music theory. While on the opposite side, there are producers who've spent a fortune learning music production, only to find themselves slaving away in minimum wage flipping burgers. Or worse.. teaching music in high school.

 

The spectrum of potential disappointments is quite literally a bottomless pit. Which is why I believe that any person that wants to get into art needs to plan ahead very carefully.

 

Your probably wondering what does this have to do with my question. Well, if making music didn't make you happy, then you probably wouldn't be able to find the energy to deal with the responsibilities and hard work required to maintain success.

[VoiceEx]

1 hour ago, buckoff said:

Yes I agree with all that. Its a disappointing buisness 

 

It can be. Absolutely. As such, you may also agree that increasing probabilities would be a logical step towards avoiding potential disappointments. Which is what i've been saying all along.

 

To be perfectly honest with you, I have alot more to say, but I feel like i've been hijacking this thread and that is not fair towards @Mahesh. However, at the risk of pissing off @john and @Peggy, i'd like to give you a bit of advise in regards to your original statement about "fixing Youtube".

 

I'm also going to be very direct right now, but I hope you'll understand why i'm saying it this way.

 

I understand that you were a victim. However, don't cling to those 20 years of disappointment. They are irrelevant right now, and they will still be irrelevant tomorrow. And if keep holding onto them, you will keep compromising yourself. Hit Writers won't create content for you, and neither will so called guru's. You don't need a million dollars to fix your Youtube. You just need to build the right kind of team and be open to the idea of developing a framework for content creation.

 

However, you also need to realize that the right kind of team, an ethical and responsible team, won't agree to work with someone that wants to throw money at problems. If you want to be a musician that focuses on his Youtube channel, then you'd need to learn how to think and act like one (content creation wise).

 

And, yes, that means being the "face" of your channel, but it also means acting as the "hand" of your channel. It means constant and direct 'hands on' involvement from you, entertaining your audience, alot of planning, and doing all sorts of technical things too, and things you probably won't enjoy.

 

That's all I really wanted to say. Again, neither you, or anybody else has to agree with me. Though I felt like it should be said.

Edited June 18, 2023 by VoiceEx

[john]

11 hours ago, VoiceEx said:

 

It can be. Absolutely. As such, you may also agree that increasing probabilities would be a logical step towards avoiding potential disappointments. Which is what i've been saying all along.

 

To be perfectly honest with you, I have alot more to say, but I feel like i've been hijacking this thread and that is not fair towards @Mahesh. However, at the risk of pissing off @john and @Peggy, i'd like to give you a bit of advise in regards to your original statement about "fixing Youtube".

 

I'm also going to be very direct right now, but I hope you'll understand why i'm saying it this way.

 

I understand that you were a victim. However, don't cling to those 20 years of disappointment. They are irrelevant right now, and they will still be irrelevant tomorrow. And if keep holding onto them, you will keep compromising yourself. Hit Writers won't create content for you, and neither will so called guru's. You don't need a million dollars to fix your Youtube. You just need to build the right kind of team and be open to the idea of developing a framework for content creation.

 

However, you also need to realize that the right kind of team, an ethical and responsible team, won't agree to work with someone that wants to throw money at problems. If you want to be a musician that focuses on his Youtube channel, then you'd need to learn how to think and act like one (content creation wise).

 

And, yes, that means being the "face" of your channel, but it also means acting as the "hand" of your channel. It means constant and direct 'hands on' involvement from you, entertaining your audience, alot of planning, and doing all sorts of technical things too, and things you probably won't enjoy.

 

That's all I really wanted to say. Again, neither you, or anybody else has to agree with me. Though I felt like it should be said.

No risk in pissing me off by offering well meant advice VX.  

 

I pretty well agree with you. There’s a very good chance Peggy and Mahesh would too.

 

There is no sense in entering a donkey in a steeplechase race with thoroughbreds, or a stallion in an F1 race. Whatever race you are in you have to be kitted out accordingly and understand how to run each race. Getting your head in the game can be very difficult by carrying good but old info and still trying to apply it, or worse, treating a new style race like an old race. Info gets stale very quickly. Once you get the hang of adapting, it’s as easy and essential as breathing.

[VoiceEx]

13 hours ago, buckoff said:

I don't want to burden you with all the trouble I'm in chasin dreams , But will see in say a year if I can work Youtube 

 

Don't worry your not a burden on me. Was just speaking my mind, is all 👍

[VoiceEx]

11 hours ago, john said:

No risk in pissing me off by offering well meant advice VX.  

 

Well you are Scottish, so.. 😅👍

 

Seriously though, now that I think about it, to a random person reading this the whole thing, being a musician on Youtube might come across as being a rather messy and soul sucking ordeal. You know, as if content creators are nothing more then puppets dancing on strings at the whimsy of their latest sponsors. That's not the case, but it might seem that way.

 

Perhaps when I have some more free time I should try to make a thread about the fun sides of content creation. You know, to try to let people know its not all bad and that its, quite frankly, relatively easy once a person gets the hang of it.