"Musician and Youtube" - the topic

[Mahesh]

Let's talk about Youtube specifically in relation to musicians. I started using YouTube very early on - for lessons, discovering music and more; and then it became more of sharing your my content on the platform. Having been on the platform for a while now, I think a lot of musicians have an unspoken relationship with consuming and creating for YouTube and how it influences their music journey. So let's try and change that. 

 

How has having a YouTube channel benefited your music career?

 

Do you think a YouTube channel is essential for all musicians, or are there exceptions?

 

Any examples of musicians who have successfully utilized YouTube to boost their careers that you resonate with?

 

What types of content do you find most effective in engaging your audience on Youtube and what engages you the most?

 

Excited to hear your thoughts.  

 

 

[VoiceEx]

@Mahesh This is a great topic and I really hope to see an interesting debate developing here!

 

Way that I see it, this unspoken relationship typically falls into four main categories:

 

Musicians that only use Youtube to consume content.

Musicians that want to use Youtube as content creators.

Musicians that only want to use Youtube as a showcase.

Musicians that don't really want to bother with Youtube, but are interested in the benefits.

 

I suppose a similar case could be made for social media or even marketing for that matter. Which is understandable of course. Most musicians got into music because that's what they actually wanted to do, and because they love making music. They didn't grow up fantasizing about a lifestyle that involves spending hours micro managing their brand, attending business meetings, dealing with press, sponsorships, endorsements, copyrights (etc etc etc).

 

So to that end, I understand why the concept of content creation can be inherently off putting. And, since we are talking about Youtube, there is also the matter of producing quality videos and making entertaining content that the audience will find as engaging. Which is a whole different ball game from, lets say, just shoving your music into stores and calling it a day. I can go on about these topics all day really, but for now i'll stick to the questions.

 

On 5/21/2023 at 5:34 PM, Mahesh said:

How has having a YouTube channel benefited your music career?

 

It would take me hours to summarize all the various ways of how Youtube benefited my career. However, TLDR, It wouldn't be far fetched to say, that, without Youtube, I probably would have stayed a hobbyist forever. It opened so many doors, practical income possibilities, collaboration opportunities, and learning how to produce content around that specific platform has taught me a great deal about many other platforms as well. Being on Youtube has also helped me to improve on my video editing skills, writing skills, communication skills, and it has also taught me how to approach a different kind of audience from what I was 'used' too on other platforms.

 

There's... no end to the benefits really. There are plenty of downsides as well. I can go on for hours about those too 😅

 

On 5/21/2023 at 5:34 PM, Mahesh said:

Do you think a YouTube channel is essential for all musicians, or are there exceptions?

 

I don't think that having a Youtube channel is a "must have". I think it is an 'option'. Some people never take off on Youtube no matter how hard they try, but still manage to find success on other platforms. Its good to attack on all possible fronts, but in terms of time and energy, it all comes down too which platform works best for your specific needs.

 

To put that in perspective, if your main streaming platform is Twitch, then you don't really "need" a Youtube channel. However, it helps. Both in terms of relevancy, but also as another source of income. Plus. You can produce tons of content practically effortlessly, just by editing and uploading content from your Streams. This practice is quite common.

 

On 5/21/2023 at 5:34 PM, Mahesh said:

Any examples of musicians who have successfully utilized YouTube to boost their careers that you resonate with?

 

Humm. I don't like using famous people as examples. So.. I'd say.. pretty much anyone that reached 10k+ gets a thumbs up 👍

 

On 5/21/2023 at 5:34 PM, Mahesh said:

What types of content do you find most effective in engaging your audience on Youtube and what engages you the most?

 

In my specific case i'd say, that variety content, commentary, doing reviews, humor, educational content, and engaging with the audience is my bread and butter. I'm also very fond of doing collaborations and having discussions with people of interest.

 

As for what engages me the most? I'd have to say, having playful debates and streaming. Anything that helps me to practice my English, really.

Edited May 23, 2023 by VoiceEx

[SeninMD]

It has become easier for musicians to express themselves in the modern world. Because there is YouTube, through which you can reach your audience.

[Janice]

On 5/21/2023 at 3:34 PM, Mahesh said:

Let's talk about Youtube specifically in relation to musicians. I started using YouTube very early on - for lessons, discovering music and more; and then it became more of sharing your my content on the platform. Having been on the platform for a while now, I think a lot of musicians have an unspoken relationship with consuming and creating for YouTube and how it influences their music journey. So let's try and change that. 

 

How has having a YouTube channel benefited your music career?

 

Do you think a YouTube channel is essential for all musicians, or are there exceptions?

 

Any examples of musicians who have successfully utilized YouTube to boost their careers that you resonate with?

 

What types of content do you find most effective in engaging your audience on Youtube and what engages you the most?

 

Excited to hear your thoughts.  

 

 

A YouTube channel is essential to be considered for chart placement on radio stations, but it was sharing my music on Instagram that got me signed to a record label. I didn't apply or attend a face to face audition. They reached out to me after I posted my music video.

[James Anderson]

I   do  feel    that        web sites      with   a  combination   of  getting  songs  on  radio   could  work  together   better   but  as  a  a  songwriter   still  feel    the  only  way  to   get  on  is     the  combination  of   the  right  song   with  a   singer   with  a  big  fan   base

[Palmiro]

I discovered a YouTube channel called Musformation about music promotion, and I'm trying to use their system as a blueprint for my upcoming "band". The guy proposes a system of 6 week cycles for each song; for each, you publish in successive weeks: the song with just a background with the artwork, then a lyric video, then a video clip, then perhaps an alternate version or a collaboration... Once the cycle is over, you move on to the next song.

 

I don't know if he is right, but he seems to be someone who cares, and his reasons make sense, so I'm going to try it as an experiment, to see if it does better than my current channel, which only gets a few scattered views here and there...

[john]

4 hours ago, Palmiro said:

I discovered a YouTube channel called Musformation about music promotion, and I'm trying to use their system as a blueprint for my upcoming "band". The guy proposes a system of 6 week cycles for each song; for each, you publish in successive weeks: the song with just a background with the artwork, then a lyric video, then a video clip, then perhaps an alternate version or a collaboration... Once the cycle is over, you move on to the next song.

 

I don't know if he is right, but he seems to be someone who cares, and his reasons make sense, so I'm going to try it as an experiment, to see if it does better than my current channel, which only gets a few scattered views here and there...

Musformation is in the right zone. 6-8 weeks I’d say. Because of the way Spotify works and the need to trigger the algorithm, I’d lean towards 8 weeks now. There’s a load of research around 8 weeks working best. Social algorithms, including Spotify, are modelled around mimicking what humans feel most comfortable with. People, it turns out, have a natural attention span, and 8 weeks is ideal. This means the algorithm is tuned to target 8 weeks too.

 

In 2021 I would have said 6 weeks but times change. 6 weeks was the average traditional recording industry cycle. I did a lot of research a few years ago looking at industry norms. Some labels worked on about 4 weeks, some 8-9 weeks. 6 weeks was the sweet spot in the old music industry. However, the various alternates you can now work with and the toolset artists now have access to has, I think, changed things.

 

On the internet, music experts are largely divided into 2 camps:

• Those with a background in the traditional music industry, whose music marketing approach is more like a scatter gun, but combines online and offline activities. They also rely upon traditional income streams and collection agencies.
• Those with an internet marketing background. They don’t use collection agencies but instead focus on highly targeted reach campaigns and optimised toolsets and closed loop processes and metrics, direct sales and create smaller audiences that are designed to create highly motivated “super-fans”. Often music is a loss leader here, with money being made from selling experiences, merch and more after giving your music away. This method pretty well ignores passive income models (royalties etc).

Both camps are quite dismissive of the other. Sneering almost. Both believe they are right, without realising they are comparing apples and oranges.

 

Traditional music industry dudes tend to make low income per customer, making money on the overall volume of sales. Follow on sales are very loose, unpredictable. It works because of the large volume of fans.

 

Internet marketing based music marketers are more focused on the total customer value over their lifetime as a fan. So they squeeze higher back end sales from less customers. As such they use loss leaders (your music) and invest more in better audience information, traceability and targeting the right message to the individual audience member at exactly the right time.

 

I think both approaches have their pros and cons. Luckily, with a bit of thought we can cherry pick to combine and get the best of both worlds. Combine the best from the traditional music industry, with multiple income streams and collection agencies, consistent and sustained promotion, along with internet marketing tools and processes for direct sales and highly precise data about your audience.

 

The principle of regular related content works for both. Both models also use your back catalog, but in very, very different ways.

 

Although it definitely overlaps with this topic, these models, and my preferred hybrid approach should really have their own topic. Sorry Mahesh! They do have bearing on YouTube and YouTube strategy, but dissecting each strategy is too much of a diversion from Mahesh’s topic.

[TagSongZ]

I've been on YouTube for years....I have many originals and many cover songs...I create cover songs to attract folks to my channel but they have to be decent covers to get views.  People like seeing the images but I think it takes away from the song a bit.  I usually create pictures / video to match the lyrics.  I'm only an amateur but I would love to get a song published but that's not easy to do.   I enjoy creating and a talent not shown will never be recognized so I carry on.  I want to leave something behind when I'm gone.  

[Palmiro]

Wow John, your knowledge of this stuff is impressive. Thank you for sharing!

 

Musformation gives advice for all platforms, but I'm by now doing only the cycle of publishing in YouTube, to see how it goes, because all I aspire to is having some people listening to the music. I like having this regular schedule to stick to, to avoid falling into "endlessly perfecting one song" (and certain track within the song, and certain detail within the track...)

 

At first I was reluctant to making video, but then I thought that all my heroes from the pre-Internet era have had to do this kind of "ancillary" stuff in some way or another too, so I try to see it as another avenue for my creativity. For example, by recording myself in chroma videos,  I'm getting to experiment with my stage persona, useful for when the moment comes to play actual gigs (it's been a while, sadly).

 

Also, looking at myself as a viewer, I sometimes wonder "what will X be up to?", and I wish they published more often. I wouldn't mind to be that kind of little "incentive" for someone else, something that pops up in their day now and then...

[john]

10 hours ago, TagSongZ said:

People like seeing the images but I think it takes away from the song a bit.

Your audience is a breadth of people. Different people will click with you for different reasons. By limiting ourselves to one format we cut down on reaching people who might not give our music that chance because they are lyrically turned on, visually turned on, moving image turned on… my point is, we vary formats to keep it interesting, yes, but also to reach people by a way convenient to them. We use variety because we can’t predict, or accurately control how someone will encounter our music. Variety of music format (acoustic, electric, band solo, simple arrangement, heavy production) and visual format (no visual, lyric vid, visualiser, animation, live action, live performance) allows potential fans many bites at the cherry. It helps keep multiple encounters with the song feel fresh. Why put all your eggs in one basket when you don’t need to? Plus, artists are alway struggling for content…. We don’t need to keep posting the same link to the same song, or not posting because it doesn’t feel fresh… instead, switch it up and post that… but every time they hear the song, especially the hook, is another chance for the song to connect with them. That turns strangers to listeners, listeners to fans.

[john]

8 hours ago, Palmiro said:

Wow John, your knowledge of this stuff is impressive. Thank you for sharing!

 

Musformation gives advice for all platforms, but I'm by now doing only the cycle of publishing in YouTube, to see how it goes, because all I aspire to is having some people listening to the music. I like having this regular schedule to stick to, to avoid falling into "endlessly perfecting one song" (and certain track within the song, and certain detail within the track...)

 

At first I was reluctant to making video, but then I thought that all my heroes from the pre-Internet era have had to do this kind of "ancillary" stuff in some way or another too, so I try to see it as another avenue for my creativity. For example, by recording myself in chroma videos,  I'm getting to experiment with my stage persona, useful for when the moment comes to play actual gigs (it's been a while, sadly).

 

Also, looking at myself as a viewer, I sometimes wonder "what will X be up to?", and I wish they published more often. I wouldn't mind to be that kind of little "incentive" for someone else, something that pops up in their day now and then...

Thanks. I try.

 

Video is definitely key important in most strategies.

 

Musformation is good, but definitely comes from a traditional music industry slant. Pretty down on the internet marketer approach. At the same time not acknowledging the totally different model means direct comparison of reach figures is not valid. Musformation use that because it makes him look good. He is trying to say his is the only game in town. It isn’t. Perhaps he genuinely doesn’t understand how or why the internet marketer model works, but I think it’s very possibly just an easy way to dis the competition.

 

There are several internet marketer based music marketing gurus that are just as biased the other way around. A large part of their initial pitch is always a list of why the traditional music approach is last decade’s news and it has zero to offer. Funnily enough this new guru is the only one in the know! (They aren’t)

 

My approach to all this is… what works? Why? What doesn’t? Why? If you understand why it works, and how a tactic or tool fits into the picture, how it fits with other tools and tactics, then you can pick and choose appropriately for your personal goals.

 

Traditional music marketing follows an all encompassing mass-market strategy.

 

Fundamentally, internet marketing centric music marketing uses a niche-market strategy.

[Palmiro]

Great information again, very enlightening, thank you. I'm going to copy these two posts and study them like a "manual".

 

What I found in this Musformation thing is a guy who gives you a methodology you can stick to, a strategy... which doesn't involve buying his shiny new e-course for $59.95. In fact he also debunks things like buying FB ads or playlist listens, as crap. I also like this idea of staying several weeks around the same song: both as a way of "hammering" the song into people's volatile attention span... and also as an unsaid statement that your music is important. Not only for them, also for yourself; if I find one of my songs is only meh, I'll find very hard to promote it with conviction,  make lyric videos, video clips, create buzz around it... I can connect this way of doing things to my craft, it's not only marketing strategy.

 

But of course the guy will probably be partial and for sure self-serving in everything he says. To say it all, I find him and his delivery so cringy that I don't even watch the videos anymore, I just read the transcripts . But I think the content is good, at least it's plausible, he has a consistent message from one video to another.

 

I never thought of internet marketing, when it comes to music, as "niche". To be honest, hearing it denominated like that is a relief for me, as it means there is life outside this big "computer god" who seems to have swallowed all the music creation and distribution in our days... I hope to growingly learn more about those other avenues...

[john]

9 hours ago, Palmiro said:

Great information again, very enlightening, thank you. I'm going to copy these two posts and study them like a "manual".

any questions, just ask.

[john]

9 hours ago, Palmiro said:

which doesn't involve buying his shiny new e-course for $59.95

His motives are not entirely altruistic. He makes his money by getting people to follow his channel and watch his vids. That works much better when he debunks opposing messages. As I mentioned before, he either doesn’t understand the niche marketing methodology, or he debunks the results of niche marketing as a strategy and wilfully ignores the difference in results that you would expect from using a different strategy. He happily highlights the cons of the internet marketer, whilst ignoring the cons of his strategy. You might not be spending $59, but in his world we are all still buying.

 

Don’t get me wrong, the internet marketers do exactly the same the other way around.

 

$59 is nothing in the grand scheme of things for good information. We all pay for knowledge, skills, tools. Why not for music marketing info? I get it. There are “gurus” everywhere now. But if wanting paid for skills and knowledge is so bad, pretty well everyone earning a wage is in trouble.

 

Facebook ads have their place. Nothing is guaranteed, but they do work when used with certain strategies. So do Spotify ads.

 

No matter the strategy, there’s a cost. People don’t always realise they are paying though. Time is a cost like that. Money can sometimes save your time. If only it was a sure thing!

 

All that said, for what it is worth, his strategy is worth something. Consistent and sustained works. It’s not a view unique to him, though he does offer some good observations. The “my shit doesn’t smell” routine while putting down others as if they are snake oil salesmen isn’t great.

 

I would suggest keeping a log book, actions and stats. Being able to look at effort and results is key to making good decisions. Strategies tend to use multiple tactics. Running some additional experiments can be very helpful to help you arrive at what works best for you.

[Palmiro]

I like the idea of keeping a log book. I record my YT metrics in a spreadsheet, I guess it's a start...

 

I want to clarify my comment on the $59 course... I'm not dissing paying for good content and information. What I was implying was more that: most of YT videos are like brochures to sell you something at the end, and at least this guy doesn't do it (although he does promote in a btw manner his books, "which are studied in university", etc).

[john]

In the music industry spreadsheets are your friend.

 

No worries on the $59 comment. I just didn’t want you, or others reading it, to automatically discount potentially useful information just because there’s a product being sold off the back of it. Discount something because it doesn’t ring true, doesn’t make sense, it’s illogical, research shows it’s making untrue claims etc… There are plenty of untrue claims made online, and plenty of sharks in the music tank.

 

Questioning what we are told is always a good idea.

[HoboSage]

Video killed the radio star.  

 

I have a Youtube music channel that I do not upload anything to.  f*ck Youtube.  That's my "strategy." 

 

 

 

[john]

2 hours ago, buckoff said:

Yeah I tried for years on Youtube , All I got was a future living in a tent 

So yeah f*ck Youtube and gurus , While were at it f*ck the politians 

Best word in our languge f*ck you , cuts thru all the bs 

 

There are a lot of sharks in the music tank and less than guru gurus. Without diving too far into this particular rabbit hole, YouTube can be very useful but:

 

• there are many ways to use YouTube and get good results.
  • generic advice is given by gurus, and taken and applied verbatim by people who don’t know no better. 
  • People take advice from more than one guru and apply that advice without knowing that there may be conflicting advice. The different pieces of advice and the specific tactics used actively undermine each other. For example, you follow more than one of these different overall strategies:
    • you apply advice you received as an artist about exploiting your music as an artist for record sales
    • you apply separate advice about exploiting that music for sync as a known artist (although you are an unknown artist)
    • you apply advice exploiting that music as a writer producer in a music library
    • you apply advice exploiting your music by pitching it to other artists
    • you can combine some strategies provided you know what you are doing or get advice on this from people who know what they are doing.
  • People are not generic.
  • advice should only be a starting point. It has to be made appropriate to each person and their circumstance.
• Get creative
• it doesn’t work for everyone

As an example, there are often hidden factors such as conflict of interest amongst those giving advice. Especially by combining advice and tactics that belong to different strategies. The advice given can sometimes be accurate but they fail to stress that it is for use only in a specific strategy….. because that little nugget might stop you buying it. Similarly, all might be well unless you fuse it in certain contexts (which they don’t tell you because that might damage their sales.

• Take the Nashville unsigned songwriter industry
  • it supports demo studios
  • it supports session musicians
  • it supports songwriting advisors/reviewers
  • it supports session producers
  • it supports session mix engineers
  • it supports session mastering engineers
  • all of whom expect your music not to be picked up, because most music isn’t
    • better to make a set fee now than a percentage of nothing
  • create generally good but safe recordings, yet we know labels, production companies even artist managers are looking for stand out tracks… NOT safe.
  • They get their next job from you because you still want to pitch your next song
  • if you are signed you might move out of their sphere, beyond the demo market place
  • production placements are less likely because
    • it is NOT a standout track. It is a safe track. 
      • this is a classic conflict
    • you are not a known artist releasing a track with a marketing budget…. Helping create an actively in-demand track
    • you are not a big artist actively touring your music, yet again generating an actively interested audience
    • you are not a known artist with a brand actively working for you
    • to make this appear to be catered for, some songwriters release their demos under virtual artists based on the session bands
  • artist placements may be less successful because you have already released the song as the virtual artist mentioned above. 
    • This is a classic conflict
  • if you are successful

Point is, the same goes for YouTube. Advice is often fairly generic and specific advice is rarely customised enough, optimised enough or with enough consultation.

 

Tactics are used that conflict, especially when tactics are used that belong to different overall strategies.

 

Similarly, tactics are often used by artists in isolation, out of context and/or without coordination with other tactics (biggest reason for failure of a platform “experiment”)

 

@HoboSage

 

Video did indeed kill the radio star. Deader than dead. Pushing up daisies. Worm food. Joined the choir invisibule (sic). Might as well bark at the moon 🌙

 

 

 

Just some thoughts I hope will help

[VoiceEx]

2 hours ago, john said:

 

• it doesn’t work for everyone

 

 

I couldn't agree more 👍

 

I would also like to add something on a similar vein, which I think alot of people don't take into account. This applies not only on Youtube, but in all platforms in general.

 

Even if a person has all the theoretical knowledge in the world, they are still going to have to work hard to gain enough experience and learn how to apply that knowledge in front of an audience. Which is a very, very different ballgame then just putting their music out there. And I think this is an important area which rarely gets touched on.

 

To put that in perspective, I happen to know quite a few musicians that are very good at making music, but they can't hold a live stream for more then 30 minutes tops, or even manage a half decent reaction video.

Edited June 5, 2023 by VoiceEx

[john]

9 minutes ago, buckoff said:

I'm done for now , Song poor . You need a big budget . I'm really done pitching songs to publishers , that was 15 years of waste . I already beat a few of them assholes , I'm not going to worry about anymore , Waste of my time . . I'm not paying 2k for retreats to write with hit writers 

Thats what they want . You pay the demo cost , Its rigged .

I tend to agree with you. That strategy, that path, is completely rigged. It’s rigged to find songwriters who have money and motivation to become their perfect clients. Writers are the goose that lays the golden egg. That part of that industry everyone has a vested interest in keeping the writer just where they want them… paying them. Writers tend to believe the narrative that these people are trying to help them get a song placed. If they are it’s almost incidental. Placement money is much more rare than the reliable income from songwriters. Songwriters are a lucrative seam, and they think they are going to mine it.

 

It’s easy to think everyone is a con man in the industry. Truth is, every industry has it’s grifters. I am glad you seem to have decided to stop throwing more money after bad. The odds of big success? You have better odds at winning the lottery.

 

However, not everyone is a grifter. Realistic plans are not get rich quick schemes, or guaranteed instant success. We can do things that improve odds but most cost time and effort as much as money, and money is often optional.