Do bad times make for good music?

[Peggy]

Listening to a discussion today about "Do bad times make for good music?"   

 

Wondering what you all think about the statement and if  "the times", however you perceive them, are reflected when creating your writings and songs?

[Jac]

11 hours ago, Peggy said:

Listening to a discussion today about "Do bad times make for good music?"   

 

Wondering what you all think about the statement and if  "the times", however you perceive them, are reflected when creating your writings and songs?

thats really interesting.

l like to read/listen to documentaries about famous artist and l was just listen to one about Johnny Cash last week.

He had tragic events in his youth and it molded his songwriting.

He said , quote;

'there is no way around grief or loss,you can dodge all you want, but sooner or later you just have to go through it, and  hopefully come out the other side. the world you find there will never be the same as the world you left behind'

 

most of his hits were based on tragic life events.

[VoiceEx]

I think that "bad times" are more likely to induce a string of circumstances which encourages (or leads too) an emotionally charged state of mind. Which in turn leads to a more a "fluid direction" of expression. Its basic psychology, really.

 

That being said, while I do think that "bad times" (or particular states of mind) have a high probability of influencing which directions or approach a person might take, I also think that this sort of outcome is not necessarily certain. For example, it is possible to write a "happy" or "positive" song while experiencing anger or distress.

 

Not to mention, there are also writers and musicians which work through methodology. In which case, their own personal feelings or thoughts may not always be reflected in their work.

Edited August 13, 2023 by VoiceEx

[Jac]

23 hours ago, VoiceEx said:

I think that "bad times" are more likely to induce a string of circumstances which encourages (or leads too) an emotionally charged state of mind. Which in turn leads to a more a "fluid direction" of expression. Its basic psychology, really.

 

That being said, while I do think that "bad times" (or particular states of mind) have a high probability of influencing which directions or approach a person might take, I also think that this sort of outcome is not necessarily certain. For example, it is possible to write a "happy" or "positive" song while experiencing anger or distress.

 

Not to mention, there are also writers and musicians which work through methodology. In which case, their own personal feelings or thoughts may not always be reflected in their work.

That's so interesting.

The big question, why do songwriters write songs?

l remember reading about an interview about Kate Bush being asked 'why did she write a song called' Misty'

one of my favorite tracks of hers.

l was shocked by her answer.

she said she had no interpretation of it. She said it was just a made up fantasy.

She said she was herself surprised at the different interpretations listeners made if it. ie that it was about desire., or loss, or death etc.

She said the song was just fantasy.

l always thought the song lyrics was about her relationship with her husband or a different partner and about the feelings of loss she felt in that relationship.

l was more convinced it was about that when l read she had had a difficult emotional  time with past break up with a partner that was combine at the same time with the loss of her mother, So when l read that, l was sure that my first thoughts on the song lyrics were right.

Then l read her interview and she said it had no meaning, it was just a fantasy written song lyrics. l remember feeling very shocked at that. Then l thought, yes, we all can interpret song lyrics in different ways. It made me more interested in why humans write songs.

Psychology , yes.

But to me, it the infinite question of what mankind has always wanted to know, 

of ' Why'

Edited August 14, 2023 by Jac

[john]

9 minutes ago, Jac said:

That's so interesting.

The big question, why do songwriters write songs?

l remember reading about an interview about Kate Bush being asked 'why did she write a song called' Misty'

one of my favorite tracks of hers.

l was shocked by her answer.

she said she had no interpretation of it. She said it was just a made up fantasy.

She said she was herself surprised at the different interpretations listeners made if it. ie that it was about desire., or loss, or death etc.

She said the song was just fantasy.

l always thought the song lyrics was about her relationship with her husband or a different partner and about the feelings of loss she felt in that relationship.

l was more convinced it was about that when l read she had had a difficult emotional  time with past break up with a partner that was combine at the same time with the loss of her mother, So when l read that, l was sure that my first thoughts on the song lyrics were right.

Then l read her interview and she said it had no meaning, it was just a fantasy written song lyrics. l remember feeling very shocked at that. Then l thought, yes, we all can interpret song lyrics in different ways. It made me more interested in why humans write songs.

Psychology , yes.

But to me, it the infinite question of what mankind has always wanted to know, 

of ' Why'

That is the difference between the intention of the writer, intended influence and unintended influence. We can all mean to write something, openly acknowledging our influences, including our emotional state. Yet often our circumstance, our emotional state unintentionally influences our writing. Even our intention, itself, can be swayed.

 

No matter how rigidly we use process and form, who we are in that moment influences what we feel, even what we observe and the meaning we take from stimulus, and the meaning we imbue or intone.

 

Some writers are literal. Others more abstract. Although not every time, I try to write songs that can be interpreted on different levels. I use abstraction deliberately such that a song means what I felt and what I wanted to convey, but it also can be interpreted very differently. So, on a very simple level, you can write a love song that tightly defines who is involved:

 

“John loves Karen”

or

 

“He loves her” “They are in love”

 

More ambiguous towards individuals, less personal, but tightly gendered.

 

“I love you”

 

which is ways more open to interpretation, ambiguous towards gender but also very intimate and direct.

 

”I care about you”

 

Similar with some emotional ambiguity too.

“I deeply love you”

 

This is open to interpretation, ambiguous towards gender, very intimate and direct but stronger feelings amplified with “deeply”

 

”I deeply care about you”

 

This has ambiguity but that is amplified, whatever that feeling is.

 

I like writing using ambiguity in a way that doesn’t dilute the depth of feeling, but it does allow the listener to decide how they relate to the song. Is it about someone they know? Is it about them? It brings the listener into the writing process. The song is only finally written between the listener’s ears… between every listener’s ears. The more abstraction is used, the wilder the interpretations become.

 

Perception is everything, and we as writers can play with perception to a high degree.

[Jac]

22 hours ago, john said:

That is the difference between the intention of the writer, intended influence and unintended influence. We can all mean to write something, openly acknowledging our influences, including our emotional state. Yet often our circumstance, our emotional state unintentionally influences our writing. Even our intention, itself, can be swayed.

 

No matter how rigidly we use process and form, who we are in that moment influences what we feel, even what we observe and the meaning we take from stimulus, and the meaning we imbue or intone.

 

Some writers are literal. Others more abstract. Although not every time, I try to write songs that can be interpreted on different levels. I use abstraction deliberately such that a song means what I felt and what I wanted to convey, but it also can be interpreted very differently. So, on a very simple level, you can write a love song that tightly defines who is involved:

 

“John loves Karen”

or

 

“He loves her” “They are in love”

 

More ambiguous towards individuals, less personal, but tightly gendered.

 

“I love you”

 

which is ways more open to interpretation, ambiguous towards gender but also very intimate and direct.

 

”I care about you”

 

Similar with some emotional ambiguity too.

“I deeply love you”

 

This is open to interpretation, ambiguous towards gender, very intimate and direct but stronger feelings amplified with “deeply”

 

”I deeply care about you”

 

This has ambiguity but that is amplified, whatever that feeling is.

 

I like writing using ambiguity in a way that doesn’t dilute the depth of feeling, but it does allow the listener to decide how they relate to the song. Is it about someone they know? Is it about them? It brings the listener into the writing process. The song is only finally written between the listener’s ears… between every listener’s ears. The more abstraction is used, the wilder the interpretations become.

 

Perception is everything, and we as writers can play with perception to a high degree.

Yes, l agree, perception is everything in the words of a song.

 

What l found interesting is that there has been very little scientific study on effects of song lyrics, but loads of studies on effects of music.

Music therapy is big in treatment for metal health now, as its found to help patients. Studies show that listening to music lessens pain plus  studies show it gives 9% rise in dopamine.

 

But what l found so interesting in ,was a study in 2011 found how much music effects v song lyrics.

They did a study and found if volunteers listened to sad music plus sad lyrics, the volunteers felt sad,

but, if they listened to happy music but still sad lyrics, they volunteers felt happy 

The researchers couldnt account for why that was.

 

Kings College London Professors Sally Marlow said

 

Quote; 'l think that instinctively we all know that music can make us feel better. l think the really interesting question is 'Why' -end quote. 

 

she said research has shown that music can be uplifting and drumming reduce depression.

 

so what about song lyrics.

l myself think they are very important. Well, they are to me.

 

and that's where l find it so interesting because l once asked my husband ,who also listened to a lot of music'' is the lyrics important to you' he said no !!

 

if fact when he buy a new album, its the music he listen too first, and then the  lyrics later,

l found is that he reads them much later, in fact it could be months later.

 

Not me, when l buy a new album, l go immediately to read the lyrics, in fact l find l cant connect with the song unless l read the lyrics at same time.

 

 so it appears that my husband is a hearing person, and i'm a visual person.

So l guess songwriters fall into that category as well. Are they a hearing person or a visual person.

 

going back to Kate Bush' Misty' I guess some would say, her fantasy she had when she wrote 'Misty' has a deep  unconscious meaning. 

 

But it does make me wonder that if her track' Misty' ( which has a very sad melody) was given a happy melody,   would l have come to a different conclusion of the lyrics meaning. According to studies, happy music with sad words will give happy feelings !

'Misty 'has  a  sad melancholy music with melancholy lyric= fans find it a sad song, which kate bush says the song has no meaning, its just a fantasy.

 

well all l know is that music, any music , sad or happy, with or without lyrics, helps reduce my physical pain, so researches got that right.

 

 

[VoiceEx]

On 8/14/2023 at 11:48 AM, Jac said:

The big question, why do songwriters write songs?

 

Why did the Neanderthals start to sing? Was it because of some inner compulsion to express emotion through sound? Or was it simply a discovery they made while developing their speech through mimicking the sounds they heard in the environment? And since our sense of hearing begins to develop early in pregnancy, does that mean that for us music is a sort of "cognitive extension"?

 

In other words:

I'm afraid you're guess is as good as mine 😅👍

[Jac]

42 minutes ago, VoiceEx said:

 

Why did the Neanderthals start to sing? Was it because of some inner compulsion to express emotion through sound? Or was it simply a discovery they made while developing their speech through mimicking the sounds they heard in the environment? And since our sense of hearing begins to develop early in pregnancy, does that mean that for us music is a sort of "cognitive extension"?

 

In other words:

I'm afraid you're guess is as good as mine 😅👍

lol, l know,  and it's fascinating.

and you mention the sounds humans hear, all around them ie animal kingdom etc.

l dont think there is any sounds from the animal kingdom that l find un- pleasant.

l notice them all the time. In fact l like all sound..l often just go outside and  sit and listen to the sound from the large tree we have in our garden when the wind is blowing the leaves. l love it.

l remember there was a study done years ago that said the world economical  situation had an effect on what people wanted to listen to in the music industry.

At difficult times, the people didnt want sad songs, logical l guess.

 

But here's a question..

if a lyric writer writes a sad song, from his experiences he's had, does that reduce his chance of it getting it 'heard' if the a) world events at that time is a factor on who will listen, and b) whether he has the right music to go with his lyrics, which studies show will give happy or sad reception ?

 

[Peggy]

The question, "Do bad times make for good music?" kinda has my same background thinking and curiosity about seasonal releases and why certain types of songs do better during particular seasons.

 

For seasonal releases, it comes to the emotional mindset of listeners during the season and the influences of weather, activities, available leisure time, etc.  For songwriters, depending on the lead time you need to write, promote and release, it takes a little more planning to hit that seasonal target because you are affected/influenced by many of the same factors.  It's like wanting to write a winter holiday or Christmas song but you need to do it in July to have solid music and a marketing campaign ready for the season.   

 

Of course,  "Bad times" and "good times" have a less distinct timeframe than seasons.  But would Oliver Anthony's song that @buckoff mentioned have taken off if people hadn't had a relatable emotional tie when hearing it, if it had been a different "season" or different "times"?  

 

I'm most often, an emotionally inspired writer, in that I need certain feelings to write and then the writing comes fast and furiously.  The feelings don't have to be from my experiences  but just experiences that touch me in some  way.  But...If I would plan to release... then I would consider the "season" or the "times" and try to align them.

[Peggy]

1 hour ago, Jac said:

I dont think there is any sounds from the animal kingdom that l find un- pleasant.

@Jac we have a member that hasn't been around for a bit but I loved many of his topics.. I think he had a blog, too.. maybe not. @childed

 

[Peggy]

1 hour ago, Jac said:

But here's a question..

if a lyric writer writes a sad song, from his experiences he's had, does that reduce his chance of it getting it 'heard' if the a) world events at that time is a factor on who will listen, and b) whether he has the right music to go with his lyrics, which studies show will give happy or sad reception ?

I think both a and b do but in a general sense.  People are always experiencing emotions and their emotions overlap with others experiencing the same.  But when a song resonates with a large audience, and maybe even a diverse audience it moves to another level of entertainment and intrigue. 

[Reid Gibson]

Humm.... You've given me a fair bit to think about. Personally I feel that bad times inspire good music, like "the blues," or as was pointed out, Johnny Cash. During the pandemic here, I spent a more time practicing and learning guitar techniques, writing lyrics, trying to come up with melodies, etc. Playing live was not and option and going to the recording studio was kinda risky (though I did anyway). World events can be inspiring, like "CSNY, Long Time Gone,"  but I didn't hear anyone sing about 911, what a farce, PNAC papers, the bush family evil empire, or the like.

   Do emotions sell songs?  Ughh????? Maybe, maybe not. If a song makes me feel sad I will generally avoid it. If a song sounds beautiful, inspiring, invokes a feeling of euphoria, ya, euphoria, that's it, then i like it. Here's one: Johnny Flynn