Any Orchestrators Here?

[JimL]

Anyone here (assuming you not only write lyrics but also play all the instruments on your recordings too) write 'orchestrated' pieces?

If so, how do you choose which instruments and where do you place them in the stereo field?

I'm currently working on a soft/smooth jazz piece and using my synth to add horns, wood, strings, etc.

But I want to do more than just use a strings preset for the main orchestral chords.

I want to better understand what a orchestra consists of, the various sounds the instruments make and where they are placed (diagrams & instrument lists anyone?).

Thanks for reading,

-Jim

[john]

Hi Jim

I'd put together orchestral arrangements several times. I usually choose instruments according to the emotion being conveyed, using awareness of the effective range of instruments and their subsequent tonal variations according to range and dynamics. For stereo placement I usually use the standard placement (dependent on orchestra size) according to the stage layout for an orchestra according to the listener's perspective. So for example 2nd violins are panned hard left, with first violins panned midway left etc.

Different orchetras are made up of different collections of instruments, and balance of instruments, so a chamber string orchestra sounds very different to a symphony orchestra.

I'll see if I can find you some diagrams etc and I should easily be able to put together a list (provided I remember when I get time to do it, so feel free to hassle me!)

Probably the biggest diiference between using orchestral sounds and making an orchestral arrangement is the role of different instruments. For example, realising that strings are split into 1st and 2nd violins, violas, cellos and bass laid out at the front of the orchestra, going roughly from smallest highest pitched placed further left towards the larger bass instruments on the right. A similar arrangement is true for the other instrument groups.

Hope this helps.

Cheers

John

[FinnArild]

One very good book I can recommend is Cecyl Forsyth's "Orchestration". First written in 1914 or something it goes through every instrument in the orchestra, it's history, range, temperament, how it's played (and should not be played, or written) and examples of use. If you're only buying one book on orchestration, this is the one.

Also, here's a good link: http://www.mti.dmu.ac.uk/~ahugill/manual/ - which I use a lot when doing orchestration pieces, small or big.

[JimL]

Thank you guys, you've both given me something to think about. John, I'm looking forward to any diagram help you can muster!

Finn, awesome site! Now I just gotta find those instruments on my Korg X50 synth and 'see' what they sound like compared to the audio on the site and compare them again to the overall full 'string' sounds. I'm not a keyboard player (about 2-3 weeks so far really, with everything I've been trying to do with my latest tune) so trying to play the piano (timing, key velocity/pressure, picking the right sounds, playing competently/consistently, etc.) has been an extreme chore. I am a guitar player... and bassist & former drummer until my back went bad.

Now I'm just a songwriter trying to climb out of my 'box'.

Well, here's the finished music (music only, still working on the lyrics) to another Tavern (part 2 of the trilogy) tune. Two tracks of 'strings' (all recorded instrument/tracks are in stereo), drum machine pattern, piano, flute, string 'melody' lead & some type of horn & tamborine. 15 tracks total. It kinda fall apart at the end but such things would be worked out during production rehersals and whenever the sheet music (run away! run away!) gets created. Yes, the first few bars of each verse does sound a bit like Lukes theme from star wars, I didn't realize that until my 2nd attempt at a recording. I did change the melody a bit to more reflect the actual vocal lines. What can ya do? But I've had to point that fact out to others who say they couldn't tell. I hope this means my abilities on keys & songwriting has gotten better if i can rewrite (stumble upon) such things.

The funny things is that I spent at least a week flubbing with the keyboard putting my fingers all over the place until things started to make decent sounds (did i mention I don't play keys?) and I was extremely happy that I came up with something very complex sounding (and not on the guitar!). But now, after i've written down the chords to see what they are on guitar and have played each 'melody' part probably hundreds of times until i got them recorded reasonably well, it all seems nothing more than simple little riffs pieced together to create a greater more intricate sounding whole. As much of a pain it's been to get the damn thing recorded (I DID say i'm not a keyboard player, didn't I?), the lyrics have REALLY been a pain. One verse & the chorus are done, but i'll be damned if i can get past that and finish it.

-Jim

http://www.mydatabus.com/public/tavernstuf...Final_Music.mp3 (11 megs)

[JimL]

Do any of you know of any free sheet music software that will allow me to type in the lyrics first and add the notes afterwrad so I can attempt to figure out & print the 'basic' sheet music?

I tried finale last year but it wanted notes first.

-Jim

[KennyChaffin]

One very good book I can recommend is Cecyl Forsyth's "Orchestration". First written in 1914 or something it goes through every instrument in the orchestra, it's history, range, temperament, how it's played (and should not be played, or written) and examples of use. If you're only buying one book on orchestration, this is the one.

Also, here's a good link: http://www.mti.dmu.ac.uk/~ahugill/manual/ - which I use a lot when doing orchestration pieces, small or big.

Wow, that's a great link. Thanks! I'm just beginning to put in some time seriously studying music theory, composition, and orchestration, so much thanks Finn!

And thanks to the O.P. for starting this thread.

here's a link to that orchestration book on Amazon:

http://www.amazon.com/Orchestration-Cecil-...159&sr=8-11

and to Orchestration in general:

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_gw/104-8...amp;x=0&y=0

KAC

Edited January 29, 2008 by KennyChaffin

[john]

http://orchestra.jwjonline.net/index.php

Philharmonic

http://www.mti.dmu.ac.uk/~ahugill/manual/seating.html

Symphony

http://library.thinkquest.org/22673/orchestra.html

Chamber

http://harmony.oakweb.ca/baroque/period.html

[JimL]

Awesome John! Thanks a million!

Now, any idea where I can get some (all actually) wmf/png chord diagrams/artwork on staves to put into my home made chord diagram sheets?

Another question, anyone here VERY familiar with Finale Notepad? I ask because I just D/L'd it but I need to be able to insert lyrics first, then add notes in afterwards. remember, I don't read nor write notation so it's the only way I can 'try' to create basic sheet music in anticipation of the production. Sadly ('cause i'm a cheap B*****rd), the free version only allows 8 staves/staffs so I can't add in more for additional instruments.

I've redrawn the thing (stave layout) in Coreldraw 9 (of which I am a guru!) and will be using that to create by 'basic' info sheet for the tavern songs from now on. I just figured that it would look more 'authentic' with all the extra doo-dads (clefs & whatnot) from the program. But at least i'm not forced to have 2 staves for synth & piano because I only need one.

-Jim

[john]

Hey

Is this what you are looking for?

http://people.virginia.edu/~pdr4h/musicpaper/

ok, png etc but useable. You can always print screen and copy into a graphic file just to grab braces staves etc

Cheers

John

[Lazz]

That’s very ambitious, Jim.

Also eminently sensible writing for schools and local productions.

Sir Android Lewd Webfoot wrote ‘Joseph and the Technicolour Wotsit” for schools – they are always looking for stuff to perform, and the royalties trickled in and funded the rest of his career (sadly).

Now, I know you say you don’t read or write notation but with such ambitions maybe it’s time you tried to sort that out and teach yourself how .

I reckon it’s a fair bet that Mehegan, Snarski or Blakeslee might have a copy of Dick Grove’s “Arranging Concepts” for you to take a look at. Section 1 – The Technical Foundation goes through all the instrument families and provides you not only with the range of each instrument (in concert and as written) but is also shows you what parts of that range are the most practical and what parts are the most effective.

It’s a great start for making your own diagram.

(If you make your own diagrams there are greater heuristic benefits)

He also has some great ideas about voicings and density/weighting and especially mixed voicings.

I don't personally know about that Forsyth book recommended by Finn - but there is something to be learned from evrything and everyone on the subject.

Personally, I would go for books by the more contemporary geezers like Don Sebesky or John Williams or anyone else writing film scores today.

But orchestration is a HUGE conceptual/practical arena.

Maybe best to leave it to pros and hire a proper orchestrator for your music just as other pro writers of musicals do – like Lenny Bernstein f’rinstance – because otherwise the learning curve is long, steep, and demanding as well as ultimately rewarding. After all, if you are going to bugger about with chord diagrams and such you will still have to use someone like that to translate them into the more regular scoring formats that hired players can read from.

Edited January 30, 2008 by Lazz

[JimL]

Thanks John, some interesting stuff there but no, I'm just looking for a small graphic of each chord written on a staff so I can insert them into my little song chord diagram sheet.

Lazz, I've got it into my head to try and 'jot down' as much of my new stuff that I put keys on, Willis's song being the first example. not because I want to learn to read sheet music but to try and make things a bit easier for whomever may be transcribing my stuff, a lesson i learned the first time. Jim Snarski took my recordings and trans'd the vocals and came over my place many times and we sat while he played the bits on his flute to make sure he had things correctly. I never understood the need for a 'lead' sheet as i never expected the singers to try & sing exactly the way I did (and they didn't... if they could sing at all of which only 2 really could...;>)

Mike B. took the lead sheets and the recordings and added all the other (school) orchestral instruments and wrote those parts (with my advice/opinions here & there).

But for Willis's song, i've got certain melodic lines played on the recording and I want to keep them so I figured i'd 'assist' whoever by jotting down the notes but don't want to just write out "A, C, Eflat, etc..." I can at least jot dots down on the staff and measure (i can count to 4 as well as anyone else...;>)

So hopefully that will help whoever later on down the road.

"Density/weighing" Well, if an instrument is too heavy, the musician should find a lighter instrument to play... i think that sums up my music theory...;>)

Here's the song chart thingy I made for Willis' song:

http://www.mydatabus.com/public/tavernstuf...isSongchart.pdf

I'm in the process of revamping it to show my full keyboard (still not as long as a regular piano). Mine's got 5 groups of both the 2 and 3 black key groupings but no indication of where middle C is (that's the point of reference where the treble/bass is split for staff notes correct?). I found a keyboard graphic (shorter than mine) that has the bass & treble notes/staff overlaid on it but I don't know 'where' to line it up compared to my keyboard. I've attached it here (I hope).

Anyways, back to the instrument stuff, when I add keyboard orchestra parts to my tunes, i'm now writing the info down (name, bank, preset, track, sound, what part the sound is used for, etc.) this time around just because some of the tunes (like Willis) are more complex (unlike the first Tavern tunes which were just 'supposed' to be a single acoustic guitar) and I want to offer a bit more info than just a recording (litterate musicians,... why can't you guys just figure it out from the recording or make stuff up as you go along during rehersals? ;>)

I hope that made sense.

-Jim

Edited: I scanned a chord staff graphic to show what I'm looking for in either png or wmg format.

Edited again: I was just looking at that 'red' keyboard graphic and I realized the notes are wrong! I also found a graphic showing where the middle C is on my keyboard, i'll be posting a new graphic tomorrow for your opinions, going to bed now, G'nite ya'll...

Edited January 30, 2008 by JimL

[Lazz]

not because I want to learn to read sheet music but to try and make things a bit easier for whomever may be transcribing my stuff

That's the right idea - it's an effective problem-solution for getting where you want to go.

I can at least jot dots down on the staff and measure (i can count to 4 as well as anyone else...;>)

Great.

That's all you need.

Well, if an instrument is too heavy, the musician should find a lighter instrument to play... i think that sums up my music theory...;>)

Makes perfect sense.

We wonder why the piccolo isn't more popular.

But density is about the number of voices on a part.

And weighting is about the number of instruments on each of those notes.

How you choose to mix those voicings together seems to be what orchestration is all about.

Here's the song chart thingy I made for Willis' song:

Don't quite get the purpose of that.

Hard for me to make sense of - probably my fault.

But that Eadd9 looks like a diminished thing happening, to me.

And using those bass notes as a guide, that FMaj7 at 9 looks like a Dm9 or (FMaj7/D)

Similarly, that looks suspiciously like Em7 at 10 and 14.

literate musicians,... why can't you guys just figure it out from the recording or make stuff up as you go along during rehearsals? ;>)

Oh they can usually do that alright - but it will generally cost you more

Generally you don't need to waste money on rehearsals for orchestral players

For rehearsals, it's regular to have a recitateur playing a piano rendering of the complete score.

When it comes to the gig, they may need to run over any potential problem areas and get the 'heads-up' before the downbeat.

But they will know what they are doing and, as long as your orchestrator and copyist have done their jobs, will be able to read whatever you stick in front of them.

I hope that made sense.

Getting there.

[JimL]

Here's a comparative graphic I drew with the graphic I found on the net. I can only assume that the bass side lines of a staff (the lower one of a piano pair) are labeled differently and not the typical FACE order? Either that or the guy that made the 'red' graphic screwed up?

I 'combined' the bass & treble 'sides' onto one staff when i noticed the bass side notes didn't 'work' or align with the keyboard notes...

confused...

Weight & density, understood. Yes, that's what i'm thinking about as far as coming up with a decent qty of instrument voices (for the school orchestra). Now that i've got some idea of instrumentation & placement, I can try and break down the preset string sounds on my keyboard rather than just use the preset sound (this may take me awhile to figure out...;>)

I was watching Star Trek Nemesis the other day and was (trying) to concentrate on the music (all that beautiful open space between the notes!) but I couldn't tell if what sounded like a single low noted horn (Bassoon? Big sax? Casio synth? A well trained water buffalo inna tie?) was just one or more, listening how it filled the room (just the right amount of reverb).

Stuff like that... aw, my heads starting to hurt from all this music thinking stuff!

[KennyChaffin]

I'm pretty sure it was a water buffalo, or maybe a manatee...... a bit hard to tell.

KAC

[Ossia]

Hello,

Welcome to the Garritan Interactive PRINCIPLES OF ORCHESTRATION by Rimsky-Korsakov.....

http://www.northernsounds.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=77

It's free, and you find a lot of information about melody, harmony, composition and naturally orchestration

Discussion about....

how to arrange pop-orchestration

Traditional Theory Books Recommendation

Choral/Vocal instruction

how to compose a counter melody

etc... etc...

I recommand this course

Carlos

They just start this one....

EXPLORING JAZZ ARRANGING

http://www.northernsounds.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=107

Edited January 30, 2008 by Ossia

[KennyChaffin]

Hello,

Welcome to the Garritan Interactive PRINCIPLES OF ORCHESTRATION by Rimsky-Korsakov.....

http://www.northernsounds.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=77

It's free, and you find a lot of information about melody, harmony, composition and naturally orchestration

Discussion about....

how to arrange pop-orchestration

Traditional Theory Books Recommendation

Choral/Vocal instruction

how to compose a counter melody

etc... etc...

I recommand this course

Carlos

Wow that's looks great. Certainly going to be helpful to me. Thank you!

KAC

[Lazz]

Wow that's looks great. Certainly going to be helpful to me. Thank you!

Yay.

Me too, Carlos.

Thanks

[john]

Hey

Useful link, thanks!

Cheers

John

[JimL]

So much great info, so little years left...

[FinnArild]

Excellent link, Carlos! Thanks!