KennyChaffin

Wow, this reply just popped up in my inbox....a blast from the past! I haven't been doing much songwriting but a lot of poetry and science writing. Hope everyone is doing well!

Just finished first listen of this and must say I love it Finn! It definitely builds to the climax. Great Job!

This thread is a damn good lesson in songwriting (not to mention human nature ). Thanks Guys!

Wonderful and well deserved praise!

Damn!

OMG! That sucks. I purchased Finn's first CD and will purchase the second one as well. He is a great songwriter and doesn't deserve this kind of treatment! Will do what I can to spread the word.

Check out some Musicals, that's what I'm doing at the moment. There are classic melodies and lyrics. Sound of Music South Pacific Hair West Side Story I'm also reading about Johnny Mercer and studying his lyrics: http://www.amazon.com/Complete-Lyrics-Johnny-Mercer/dp/0307265196/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1296906540&sr=1-1 Great book, but a little pricy..

or the one that really grabs me in this vein is "Yellow" by Coldplay. very interesting song/structure/lyrics KAC

Great song! KAC

Haven't read the other responses yet, just wanted to post my thoughts without being "influenced." A lyric is a lyric -- words that are associated with some music with a melody and rhythm associated with them. Generally there is a rhyme scheme, but not necessarily. On top of that there are all manner of rhyme that plays into lyrics - complete rhyme, partial, multi-syllable, internal rhyme, end rhyme (this is the kind you are probably referring to above) and others. Many lyrics if they use a particular rhyme scheme in Verse 1 follow that in other verses. This is to help make the song memorable. I don't think not having a rhyme/rhyme scheme creates a series of confused statements, because there also should be rhythm and meter associated with the lyric as well. Now if a particular lyric has none of those things and is not in a standard song form, them yeah it could easily be described as a series of confused statements, just as each line might be if the words were arranged randomly. Still if each of the lines conveyed some message, some feeling, there still might be some point to the song if the music had a good beat and you could dance to it......let's see what is they call that genre.... KAC

Thanks John! KAC

Try "Writing Music for Hit Songs" by Jai Josefs - http://www.amazon.com/Writing-Music-Hit-So...2596&sr=8-1 It doesn't go into orchestration though which sounds like part of what you are asking. I have some other more "abstract" books on that. KAC

Not meant to be rules at all (as there aren't any in any creative endeavor ) more like guidelines. And if you start that chorus (isn't it really just a vocal group?) krap again, I WILL take you out to the woodshed and whip yer behind. KAC

I don't know man, just doesn't seem right. I gotta think it would be a pain to keep in tune. KAC

Yep! I've been building websites for almost 15 years now. It was even more important in the dark ages. KAC

Agreed, if you analyze it too much you can kill it, but still important to know the terrain if you want to do something worthwhile. Lazz and I got into it on Steve's recent thread (as you might have gathered from the comment above) wrt some of the terms you mention in the initial post. As you may or may not know I've come back to songwriting in the last few months after a brief fling with it some 10 years ago (been writing poetry mostly in the mean time, as well as doing software engineering to keep food in the dog's bowl) and have been studying, reading, learning, absorbing all I can fully intent on making a serious go of it (not for money!). I'm going to post my off-the-top-of my head summary wrt lyric and songwriting that I posted in response to a similar question on another forum: -------------------------- Okay, here we go, I'm gonna try to regurgitate what I've been studying (mostly lyric writing) for the past few months Start with an interesting and universal idea. Start with a title then summarize in a sentence what that title means Write in prose what you want to say in the first verse, same for verse 2 etc. Write the Chorus - it should contain the title most likely as the first or last line the chorus should summarize the message of the song, it should also (if possible) be tense and point of view neutral so that the verses can "color" it. Once you have the chorus written write the verses. Once it's all written re-write it to make it better and then do that again a few times. Know and follow the standard song forms (at least in the beginning) - AAA, VCVC, AABA etc. etc. Use a rhyme scheme. If you use ABAB in Verse 1 use the same in Verse 2 Keep it simple but try not to use sing-song (simple) rhymes The words should read like a normal sentence - do not invert word order for the sake of rhyme The chorus words and music should be the same each time it is used. As someone said above the title should be in the song. :Psmile.gif Make sure the second verse builds on what is started in the first verse. (i.e. don't just say the same thing a different way, give us some new information. Maintain a consistent tone through the song. If the first verse is angry, maintain it in the second verse. The Chorus should contrast musically and lyrically from the verses. A bridge is a one-time section that varies lyrically and musically from the other sections. Leave room for the singer (and listener) to breath. (rests, pauses, silence is important) The feeling of the music should match the feeling of the song (happy lyrics = happy music, sad lyrics = sad music) this is called prosody. I'm sure I've forgotten a million things, but that's some good ones. -------------------------- Hope this is useful. KAC

Seems okay here, but I'm on high-speed cable connection. Good advice above from all. Often when people/groups/bands/companies throw together a website they skip the first step which is, What is the purpose of this site and how do I design it to accomplish that? KAC

The important thing being to write good songs regardless of terminology and get the big bucks and the girls! KAC

Agree with the above, best to write in the form expected by those you are pitching your work to. Best to know the standards before breaking them. And always best to learn what others have already learned from trial and error rather than go through it all again individually. KAC

And there in is the flaw, it's clear the market is NOT demanding, but MS is trying to increase revenue.....somebody should figure out how the horse and cart operate. KAC

Agreed, I mean if you REALLY wanna go back, think about the ancient music and forms and Bach pretty much creating the tempered musical scale we use. The forms of classical (and choir) music, wandering troubadour's carrying the news around, then of course everything went to hell with top 40 radio, corporate rock and playlists. Through it all though the music, the art has survived regardless of form or style or genre. It seems a very basic need of humanity to create music and song and it's fascinating to be a part of. KAC

Good advice above. I'd suggest you also begin (which you've done right here) about the music business. There is a ton of information and books out there, just do a google search and start reading. (isn't the web wonderful!) Here's one link for starters: http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/feb99/arti.../inside.711.htm KAC

Yeah, seems kind of like jumping on the bandwagon rather than being innovative. I guess the bigger issue to me is where is this going and why? Need to look at the past, the reason Albums exist, why were they packaged the way they were and does it serve any purpose in todays, or our future means of distributing and selling music? I'm not sure of the full history, but I know there were 78's that were relatively long playing and with multiple songs etc. In the 50's or so we began to see 45's - singles and flip/B sides that were most likely to address the market that wanted to buy the song because they heard it on top40 radio. Then either simultaneously or shortly there-after were LPs - 33-1/3 Albums with a collection of songs. CDs followed which were really just LPs in a different format. There were also CD singles - same media but less data. Now we have on-line music - itunes and other on-line purchase/download sales. What does it all mean? Hell I don't know. Seems to me bands and songwriters typically write songs. Those songs get packaged together as a album for sales purposes (more bang for your buck?) but it seems increasingly that when this is the process there may only be one or two songs worth buying on the album and a 8 or 10 krap songs. Some bands or songwriters will do concept albums which are a bit different creature in that the individual songs fit together to make something bigger from the sum of it's parts. These however seem fewer these days. Will the ability to purchase individual songs give us better music and less krap? or more? Do songwriters/bands write songs just to fill up the album? Will they continue to? Will the public begin to buy individual songs only? Walmart or WholeFoods? KAC

I knew there must be some difference. KAC

Wow, you have google there! KAC