Poet Becoming A Lyricist?

[john]

Hi

I see LOTS of poets that are migrating to writing lyrics. I think it worthwhile to start a discussion on exactly what is the difference between the two?

I know what I think, but what I really want is to hear what you think, to hear questions from poets that are begining to write lyrics. Better that than thinking "I write poems, lyrics are just poems with music in the background". I'd also like to hear some of the experienced lyricists offering opinions and advice, and particularly any nuggets of wisdom that helped you.

So, here's to a hearty debate. Hopefully if you are a poet transitioning to being a lyricist this will become a very useful topic (after it gets going!).

Cheers

John

[DonnaMarilyn]

Good topic, John.

Here are two online resources that give reasonable examples and descriptions of the basic differences between a poem and a lyric.

http://www.songlyric...lyricorpoem.htm

http://andreastolpe....rics-or-poetry/

In another life, my focus was on short stories and poetry. When I made the transition to lyrics, I found I needed to take certain things into account. Below are just a few examples (bearing also in mind that the selected genre will play a role in determining the appearance and content of a lyric). DISCLAIMER: Others here may have experienced things differently.

- The story needs to be expressed clearly; unlike with poetry, the listener doesn't have the luxury of time to stop and try to work out what a particular line means. The story should be coherent, consistent, and progress in a logical manner. Human beings are hard-wired to try to make sense of things.

- The words need to be understood by the average listener. This does not mean 'dumbing down' lyrics; it means selecting the vocabulary most likely to make sense to the listener in the shortest time. Here, genre will play a role. For instance, a prog-rock/New Age lyric will be quite different from a pop-rock or country lyric.

- Structure is necessary so that the composer/vocalist can build the music around it; the listener will be waiting for certain kinds of repetitions. I realised that I needed to learn the functions of various sections of a lyric: rhyming, scansion, verse, chorus, bridge, outro, intro, and so on. I spent time studying well-known lyrics to determine how the lyrics (and music) achieved their particular impact.

- Many lyricists (like myself) don't play a musical instrument. Hence, it's particularly important that lyrics have an inherent flow and consistent scansion/metering so that the lyrics will "sing off the page" and appeal to the musician/vocalist who may be asked to provide the bedtrack and melody.

- Certain 'rules' or guidelines are imposed on lyrics so that the song will have maximum impact in a short period of time. These guidelines in NO way stifle creativity: on the contrary, they push lyricists to be even more creative, to think outside the box, so that their work will be fresh, original, and compelling even within the parameters of 'rules/guidelines'. And once a lyricist learns the rules, and has become adept at writing, she/he can bend or ignore them. But first - as with any craft or skill - it's necessary to learn them, because they're the key to what will capture and hold listener interest. Of course, if you're writing simply for yourself/family/friends, and with no thought of reaching a wider audience, you can write any way you want to.

- The lyric - again depending on the genre - needs to fit within a certain time frame. In the beginning, the hardest thing was to reduce the story from, say, 15 verses to 6 at the most (and including a chorus and perhaps a lyrical bridge). With a lyric, I couldn't indulge in rambling on the way I might have in an abstract poem. I needed to hook the listener quickly, make my point, entice (I hoped) the listener to care, and then bow out.

There were other things as well, but in summary, it's been about learning a certain kind of discipline. Transitioning from poetry to lyrics doesn't mean forfeiting one's command of the language, creativity, feel for words, or love of metaphor, similes, and other poetic devices, and so on. On the contrary. These are essential for writing effective lyrics in any genre. It means knowing how to apply these most effectively in a form that will appeal to a listener rather than just a reader.

I hope the above ramble is useful.

Donna

Edited April 30, 2011 by DonnaMarilyn

[McnaughtonPark]

What Donna said pretty much sums it up for me.

One difference I experience between poetry and lyrics as they pertain to the Songstuff forums is, I don't critique poetry. Not that I refuse to, I don't know how. I'm sure poetry in certain forms, sonnet, haiku, etc. have rules or guidelines, but much of poetry seems fairly free to roam at will.

One point I differ in from Donna's explanation:

the listener doesn't have the luxury of time to stop and try to work out what a particular line means

I've been listening to the same music for 40 years. It's not so much the content making sense at first, hell, I still can't understand Mick Jagger, as much as it is the melodic connection between the music and the lyric, most times a marriage of melody. I can hear words, but I can also feel or sense their connection to the overall theme without understanding them at all. The genre will also determine much of this. If you're writing a country ballad, better damn well be able to understand every word of it. But, I don't think Roger Waters was ever that unsuccessful, and in my case, the Stone's haven't done that bad either.

While being clear and using good grammar is by far better than the opposite, I don't feel it is a rule that must be adhered to exclusively, but most generally, I agree we should work in that direction.

[DonnaMarilyn]

While being clear and using good grammar is by far better than the opposite, I don't feel it is a rule that must be adhered to exclusively, but most generally, I agree we should work in that direction.

I hear where you're coming from, MP. Jimmy Webb's famous "McArthur Park" is a good example of a song not making any kind of objective sense. It's "meaning" is what the listener himself/herself brings to the table.

As to correct grammar, etc: The genre will indeed dictate. Myself, I love writing in the vernacular. One of my own favourite songs has lines in it like:

"Me and Johnny"/"Was childhood friends"/"We done a lotta dreamin' ", and so on. The vernacular can lend flavour and authenticity to a lyric, but it needs to be consistent and appropriate to the genre (e.g. country/bluegrass, etc.).

Donna

Edited April 30, 2011 by DonnaMarilyn

[AlexOConnor]

I think writing poetry and writing lyrics is much for a muchness. I don't believe it's something that can be taught, or more precisely - it's better when it comes form someone with a natural aptitude for writing. That is not to say in slight that you cannot learn to be better. We all learn to be better at everything we do.

What I am trying to say is that for any poet who has turned their hand to writing song lyrics; fear not. So long as you let your heart away with you, your lyrics will be good enough for me. Lyrics are something that should (though cannot always) come from a place where you understand a feeling because you have experienced it before or can imagine what it's like.

I think thinking too much can destroy the soul of what something has. I believe that the rough edges of a lyric can sometimes make it unique. It allows that persons character to shine through and let's us peer into their world, soul.

Once the first lyric has been molded... The rest will surely follow.

- Alex

[DonnaMarilyn]

I'm with Alex as regards lyrics being better if they come from "someone with a natural aptitude for writing". Not everyone has this, just as not everyone has a natural aptitude for photography or ice-skating or carpentry or mathematics or playing a musical instrument well.

I also agree that lyrics are best coming from a place where the author has experienced the situation or emotion or can imagine what it's like. In fact, this is essential.

But unless an aspiring lyricist can distinguish between what constitutes a poem and a lyric, and understands what makes either format work optimally, he/she may find it difficult to reach a target audience - if that's the goal - or to become an effective writer of lyrics.

Luckily, we can all learn to be better at everything we do. Lots of wonderful resources available, including thousands of well-written songs, the lyrics of which are worth studying closely. Here are a few other resources.

Songwriting for Dummies edited by Peterik, Austin & Bickford

Popular Lyric Writing by Andrea Stolpe

Writing Better Lyrics by Pat Pattison

Songwriting: Essential Guide to Lyric Form and Structure by Pat Pattison

Songwriting: Essential Guide to Rhyming by Pat Pattison

Writing Better Words for Your Songs by Rikky Rooksby (who's also written an excellent book on writing songs with guitar)

Any of Pat Pattison's online teaching videos are good as well.

Donna

Edited May 1, 2011 by DonnaMarilyn

[john]

Here they are as live links:

• Songwriting For Dummies edited by Peterik, Austin & Bickford
• Popular Lyric Writing by Andrea Stolpe
• Writing Better Lyrics by Pat Pattison
• Songwriting: Essential Guide to Lyric Form and Structure by Pat Pattison
• Songwriting: Essential Guide to Rhyming by Pat Pattison
• Writing Better Words for Your Songs by Rikky Rooksby (who's also written an excllent book on writing songs with guitar)

I would also suggest:

• Successful Lyric Writing by Sheila Davis

[DonnaMarilyn]

Thanks for posting those links, John, and the extra one for Sheila Davies. Also an excellent book.

Another one of hers I can recommend is "The Songwriters Idea Book".

And two additional resources:

TuneSmith:Inside the Art of Songwriting" by Jimmy Webb

"6 Steps to Songwriting Success" by Jason Blume

Each of these and the other books can be purchased second-hand and very cheaply.

Here's a link to some of Pat Pattison's videos.

Pat Pattison videos

Donna

Edited May 1, 2011 by DonnaMarilyn

[AlexOConnor]

While I agree reading may be a good way to learn for some I still maintain that the best way to learn is by doing. In the time you read & fully absorb the information in a book you could very easily have written 50 song lyrics for practice. I am not trying to discredit your way of doing things. It certainly has it merits. I would probably only point more seasoned song writers in the direction of reading books.

I think while a person is an immature song writer they need to develop their own style and really get a feel for what they personally want to write. I think reading a book where an author may sway them down a certain road that they originally would not have taken is unwise.

I believe lyricists should learn on their own and then use the wonderful resources provided above to polish their skills. (For those who posted above, your posts where really fantastic, i'm not trying to step on toes here)

-Alex

[DonnaMarilyn]

I'm with Alex that a writer needs to write, write, write, practise the craft rigorously. But what good does it do if - without any kind of guidance or reference (whether books or good lyrics as an example) the writer makes the same mistakes repeatedly? How does this help the person become a better writer? I'd suggest there's a greater danger of a writer learning bad habits that will be all the more difficult to lose later. It's the same with any craft or trade. What's the point in writing dozens of lyrics that would need to be substantially revised, rather than taking a couple of hours to read a book (or watch an online tutorial or attend a reputable workshop) by someone knowledgable and proficient in the craft?

I don't feel there's a danger of an aspiring lyricist losing her or his way just because she/he read a few books on songwriting. On the contrary, the books listed above, for instance, simply demonstrate the tools of the craft. What the author does with those tools remains personal and unique. They help the writer to express more efficiently what she/he wants to say.

Edited May 3, 2011 by DonnaMarilyn

[AlexOConnor]

We have many dozens of lyricists here who I can guarantee have never done any serious studying or reading about writing lyrics - yet they are very good. I don't think you can get bad habits from writing a lot. Besides, recreating is the mother of invention, to make a mistake means to reinvent yourself to be better. No danger in that. I understand what you're saying... I just fail to see the same objective as you: Bad habits - in my mind I can't really think of any.

The ones I can think of can't really be fixed by extensive reading. Writing lyrics is like writing music. You can read books if you want to and go down an intellectual path of learning or you can learn by doing like so many others. I'd probably wager my money that most people just go with what they feel...

It's nice that we have different points of view anyway - People reading this later will be able to see both sides of the coins and two different ways two different musicians do things. Maybe it will help them make up their mind on which path they'd rather take?

This was a nice topic to write on for me, thanks Donna

[DonnaMarilyn]

We have many dozens of lyricists here who I can guarantee have never done any serious studying or reading about writing lyrics - yet they are very good.

How can you be sure none of the very good lyricists here have never studied others' lyrics or read anything about crafting lyrics?

Perhaps a poll should be conducted.

And how would you define "good"?

I think what it boils down to, Alex - and you mentioned this earlier as well - is that some people simply have "a way with words", a certain aptitude that they're born with. Others do not, and never will have, no matter how many books they read or writing courses they take. However, they can learn technical skills and improve their craft - and this is wonderful, even though the magic that makes certain artists masters might never be there.

Same with music, I'm sure, and any other art or craft. One can become proficient to a certain standard, but not everyone will be Django Reinhardt (who played exquisite jazz guitar despite two partially paralyzed fingers), or a Michelangelo, or a Shakespeare (who it's claimed was actually a woman, Mary, Countess of Pembroke, but I digress ), or Jimi Hendrix, or whoever. As far as poets go, to my mind, one of the most brilliant poets today is the "nature poet", Mary Oliver. Her work brings me to my knees. I couldn't come within a million miles of her talent, insight, and sensitivity, but I'm not going to stop writing and learning simply because other people do it better than I do. And I have to say that I've learned so much from reading and studying other people's work, and even by critiquing, because it helps me to recognise flaws in my own work.

I don't see it though as a question of people choosing a path to take - i.e. either studying the craft or not studying the craft. Why would anyone choose to remain ignorant of tools that would help improve proficiency? I see it more as learning what the rules and guidelines are and then choosing how to implement them, or not, as the case may be. But in most cases, not knowing the rules/guidelines amounts to lazy and ineffective writing.

I agree. This is an interesting topic, and it makes for an enjoyable exhange.

Donna

Edited May 3, 2011 by DonnaMarilyn

[AlexOConnor]

I suppose then to sum up this topic for me -

I'm a strong believer that everybody has born natural talent. Just takes some longer to coax it, excellent point you made there about learning from other works. I think that's something inherent to us as humans to see how others do and imitate or create our own version, or to the other extreme realize that is exactly the opposite of what we'd like to be.

Ignorance is bliss for me, I've sampled books but I don't have the patience to study in depth - I've met a great many people who have written some of the most inspirational pieces of lyric I have ever had the pleasure to develop with them, however they couldn't tell and p from a q. Literary aptitude is the smallest part of songwriting. Great things can still come through - even if they can't reach the levels of others - originality is key.

Like many of the songwriters we have here on Songstuff, sometimes the grammar is poor or the spelling is less than stellar yet the message they give is truly heart warming, touching. I suppose coming from my childhood, I have always learned to do things without the aid of books - I learned to play guitar by listening to the radio and watching my older brother play. I learned to write lyrics just by practicing. Though my way has been harder and slower - I feel like I have achieved something that is only mine. The way I play my instrument is unique, no other guitarist has my quirks so far as I have seen. My lyrics are for the most part cliché free and I like to think they are creative (to the best of my personal ability).

The members of Songstuff help me to polish my abilities and for that I am grateful - I learn from others, the vast amount of experience that is here on this forum. In that respect, people who have taken an academic route have no doubt influenced my work via this forum in the past year. I don't take for granted the expertise of other members, I thrive on it.

This is just the way I see things - I like the way you see things too

[Bakolito]

Hi!

This is my first post on this forum,English is not my mother tongue so maybe I'll find that writing in english is different than doing it in spanish,anyway I think there's one aspect of writing poetry and writing lyrics I must point out and share with you: Poems are written for "readers" and song lyrics for "listeners".This can be a "Perogrullada" as we say in spanish meaning something really obvious,but it is? This is a notion I started to see or hear when I get involved in writing music to somebody elses lyrics,a playwriter's.The lyrics look good on paper and in the context of the scenes, sometimes they were hilarious (it was a comedy) but once I sit with him and the Director and I was told in which genres or rhythms they wanted the songs to be and they sort of sang bits to me I started to "hear" them singing while "reading" the words on paper and the magic was gone: the great lines started to become words on paper nor "song lyrics".By the time I play some of my versions of the songs to them (previosly givin`them a little lecturing on this subject)they started to share this idea with me and re-written a whole bunch of the material with a song in mind and not the printed paper.I haven`t researched for books or papers on this subject yet nor have I had the chance to talk to fellow composers about it.What do you think of this?

Blessings.

[Retrosaurus Rex]

Hi Bakolito, drop a post in the introduction board! But welcome anyway!

I think your experience confirms what anybody who pursues this game seriously figures out sooner or later.

[gradual]

This is an interesting discussion.

I think I've always been a pretty good creative writer. English was one of my better subjects, and I always used to make up songs as a kid. But my lyrics often didn't make sense. They rhymed and had a certain number of syllables, but that was it. I thought that was enough. Of course when you're that young, your knowledge of language and how to use it is still very limited. The first book on songwriting that really helped me was "88 Songwriting Wrongs and How To Right Them", by Pat and Pete Luboff. I got the book when I was about 12 or 13, and I remember feeling overwhelmed with how many rules there seemed to be. But the most important rule seemed to be that lyrics actually need to make sense (who knew?) They need to be clear and not confusing, and all the relevant information must be in there.

As I got older, I realized the "rules" were really just guidelines, and you didn't have to follow them all the time. But I feel that book did set me on a path, and although not all my songwriting attempts have been stellar, I think I'm a better writer overall for reading about it.

Decades later, I picked up Writing Better Lyrics, by Pat Pattison, and remember getting a similar feeling the first time I skimmed through it--especially the first few chapters. Yet having recently read it again, it really does seem to have some great ideas in it. I guess the lesson is, if you pick up a book on craft, and are feeling a little intimidated by it, you're probably learning something useful.

So if I absolutely had to choose a side here, I'd lean more toward picking up a book and reading about it. But I would definitely advise beginning songwriters to not get too intimidated by all the information presented. It's meant to help you, not stifle you. After a while, you'll begin to apply it out of habit, and writing will become easier. At least that's been my experience. YMMV.

[MikeRobinson]

I am, of course, a serious fan of Jimmy Webb's book, TuneSmith, and in that book he talks quite a bit about lyrics.

Lyrics are, of course, a form of poetry, yet it is a form of poetry that is bound to music ... joined at the hip. I recently bought a retrospective book of Paul Simon's lyrics (on a clearance rack at the soon-to-be defunct Borders store, alas...), and when you read them apart from the music they read like faintly-odd, curiously sparse poetry ... because, well, "fully one-half of the thing is missing."

"A poem," by itself, is meant to be regarded "by itself." A lyric, on the other hand, is not.

Edited August 26, 2011 by MikeRobinson

[EJB]

I really Love this Topic,

Just for starters I'll toss in I don't think Lyrics and Poetry are the same maybe Cousins.

 

Poetry has more forms than music has Genres

 

http://www.poetrysoup.com/forms_of_poetry/a

 

You could probably say the same for Lyrics.

 

I personally don't think Poetry in general makes good lyrics, but that is just me.

I prefer a more conversational approach. Very few people strool about speakin in rhymes

or chatting in Poetic Verse.

 

There are other things to consider as well like, not using Cliches' (I have a different opinion on this).

 

There is so much I want to say (and Learn) on this subject, but I'll leave it at this for now.

 

Oh Yea I almost forgot. What about Lyrics vs: Poetry in other Languages?

Edited June 22, 2014 by EJB

[M57]

Going back to the original question..  "What's the difference between a poem and a lyric?", I think the previous poster, Mike, pretty much gave us a great starting point.

 

A lyric is poetry meant to be sung.  I would choose to refrain from debating with those who would argue that the way poetry looks on the page 'matters,' but as far as I'm concerned, poetry is meant to be spoken - i.e. heard - and In this sense, it is organized sound, which is pretty much what I consider to the be the broader definition of music.  If we choose to look at it from this angle, we could actually claim that lyrics are not a form of poetry; rather, poetry is a form of lyrics.

 

Regardless, the question we are asking here is not, "What is the same?"  We are attempting to discern what is different - and in my opinion, the answer is ..not much. I have written songs to poetry.  That is to say, I have written music to words that were not originally written with the intent that they would ever be used as a lyric.  Was it 'pop' music?  Uhmmm.. nope.   Some of the very best choral music I have ever performed have been settings of text whose authors clearly never intended those words to be sung.

 

That said, when it comes to 'pop' music, there is an expectation for a certain amount of rhyming ..and especially 'close'-rhyming.  The reason for this has less than you might think to simply do with keeping it simple and/or accessible. and this goes to the difference between the spoken word, and the sung word..

 

You can't intone a consonant (with the exception of the nasals, M and N). This is something that is important to be aware of when writing a lyric. Basically, 'notes' require a vowel sound to be heard. "Long" notes held by a singer are sung entirely on vowels alone. Consonants are fleeting when sung. Musically speaking, they are little more than articulations.  And so it is that the use of rhyme (and especially close-rhyme), though never 'required,' is such an important weapon in the lyricists arsenal.

 

Are there other areas that we could look at that would have us differentiate between lyrics and poetry?  Sure, but the above is a pretty significant one in my book. 

Edited June 22, 2014 by M57

[EJB]

M57 I think what you refer to as close-rhyming is called "soft" rhyming (I think).

 

I personally think there is a very distinct difference between Lyrics and Poetry.

I may not be able to eloqently verbalize it but I am not wanting an arguement.

Just stating my opinion.

 

I would think that if you set out to write a Lyric and have a mindset of being Poetic

it will be much harder.

 

I guess I feel Lyrics should be more a short (very short) story than a Poem.

 

EJB