Last time in a studio

[Lazz]

I think that's a little bit harsh...

You know - I think you’re right – maybe it is harsh.

I hesitated about posting. The subject I chose to run off at the mouth about was potentially out of line with the thread topic. Plus it contains a critical stance which may be unwelcome. So I even considered deleting after I had posted. But in the end I went for it anyway in the interests of open debate plus the fact that it remains my honest opinion.

How are you going to time the release on a delay, compressor or reverb to a reasonable degree of accuracy on a recording not done to a click?

Sounds like you and I have completely different working practices.

These are elements of the post-production palette for me.

Sounds like maybe you use a studio to "make" music product whereas I use a studio to record music that's being made. I could be wrong. Please let me know. But it could explain the associated differences in tools and values and approach.

In this day and age of over produced multitrack recordings, you are not going to hear succesful recordings that are not done to click tracks, basically ever, unless you are a big Bob Dylan fan...

I am not quite clear what you mean to say with the Dylan reference, but disgree with the statement it qualifies. Maybe it depends on what we mean by “successful”. My measure of success has to satisfy a personal aesthetic and not current fashions – although I get a kick out of plenty enough of those, they’re certainly not part of what I’m after. Extremely few of the recordings I choose to own because of their inherent beauty and power have anything to do with a click track. Neither do they have anything to do with Robert Zimmerman. Yet still, by my chosen standards, they are hugely successful.

I can spout a list if you need.

Nor have any of the recordings I have been involved with – apart from the one occasion I mentioned previously – had anything to do with a click. And it’s up to you whether you choose to consider them “successful” or not. But I definitely do. (I can spout a list of these, too, if you need, although it’s obviously much less than the previous proffered list, and contains nothing that risks being on “Top Of The Pops” or providing the backdrop for a rave.)

your recording is going to be imperfect...

Neither are they imperfect.

Groove Armada - At The River English Riviera Remix...

I didn’t say it isn’t possible to groove with a click. I did say it provided unique challenges in playing and recording. Those few recordings I have that were done with a click are most definitely groovy and most admirably realised. That’s why I bought ‘em. Haven’t heard Groove Armada. I’ll check it out. But it does say “remix” – which indicates once more that we’re talking about different working practices appropriate for different goals. Now, I’m a huge fan of guys like, say, Adrian Sherwood, and the sort of things they can get up to in a studio, but I definitely don’t operate in the same arena.

You're never going to find an engineer whose opinions do not differ from yours in any way shape or form, unless of course he is a yes man who is too scared or inexperienced to speak up...

The job of the engineer is not to dispute but to serve our intent and goal. Their skills and opinions and experience are the very reasons they’re hired. However – if they are unable to share their opinion and offer the benefit of their advice and experience without creating a fraught environment with fraying tempers, then they’re not going to last long.

Quite honestly, I feel far more worried working with people who don't question me and don't get frayed nerves, since this points out they either have no self belief, no passion for what they are doing or they are yes men...

I think I prefer the way I work, thanks. I don’t find frayed nerves and tempers are at all conducive to getting the job done. Unless, I guess, it’s that style of energy you want to capture. But it’s not for me. On planet Lazz, those sort of guys don’t get hired either. What I want in the studio are players who can do the job, people who can gel professionally in a co-operative team fashion. It’s just not credible to suggest that these guys would have to be yes-men with no self-belief or passion for what they are doing. It’s like any other work environment. Proper professional attitude and approach is a real positive productive asset – the lack of social skills is not.

So. While I agree it may have been harsh for me to have come right out and said it, I will still stand by what I said – if you’re recording in a fraught environment trying to work with geezers who get pissed-off quick, then you’re in the wrong place with the wrong guys. This is just not a good working situation by anyone’s standards. And I’d think seriously about changing it.

[Steve]

if you’re recording in a fraught environment trying to work with geezers who get pissed-off quick, then you’re in the wrong place with the wrong guys. This is just not a good working situation by anyone’s standards. And I’d think seriously about changing it.

I agree entirely with this statement, and not just for the recording environment! This would go for ANY environment! If I have to work with people that get stressed if they can't have their own way, or refuse to see other points of view, then I don't want to be there!

[hariossa]

hey! nice discussion...

click tracks are not really needed while recording jazz, all jazzers that I've known had regular daily practice sessions with a metronome to achieve a good and strong timing sense, it's not common for a jazz bass player to rush or slow the tempo, in fact if he/she does it, he/she is not going to be called again for recording or even playing!.

compression and reverb settings are not so difficult to do in this enviroment, also delay settings are easy if the player keeps a steady tempo.

also some of my favorite songs have tempo "imperfections" (beatles, led zeppelin...) not being that a big issue...

one good example of a human metronome is guitarist steve cropper from booker t and the mg's who once said: "give me a pulse and you can be sure it won't move".

"modern" music needs a click track in order to fit all loops and time fx properly.

so my 2 cents are: click track? yes or no, depending on what is the final product.

an engineer needs to be able to work in different music worlds with different artists. my experience is that if the engineer thinks you are an amateur he/she is going to impose his/her rules, but if he/she respect you as an artist, he/she is going to do his/her job. also in a professional enviroment the producer has the last word. not the engineer.

bye!

[Nightwolf]

an engineer needs to be able to work in different music worlds with different artists. my experience is that if the engineer thinks you are an amateur he/she is going to impose his/her rules, but if he/she respect you as an artist, he/she is going to do his/her job. also in a professional enviroment the producer has the last word. not the engineer.

bye!

Well said, I agree with much of what you had to say as well Lazz.

I use a click cause I'm an amateur. If a session gets tense, I would pack and leave.

I've sat in on thousands of professional recordings and never witnessed a "fraught" environment.

[Prometheus]

I think I prefer the way I work, thanks. I don’t find frayed nerves and tempers are at all conducive to getting the job done. Unless, I guess, it’s that style of energy you want to capture. But it’s not for me. On planet Lazz, those sort of guys don’t get hired either. What I want in the studio are players who can do the job, people who can gel professionally in a co-operative team fashion. It’s just not credible to suggest that these guys would have to be yes-men with no self-belief or passion for what they are doing. It’s like any other work environment. Proper professional attitude and approach is a real positive productive asset – the lack of social skills is not.

So. While I agree it may have been harsh for me to have come right out and said it, I will still stand by what I said – if you’re recording in a fraught environment trying to work with geezers who get pissed-off quick, then you’re in the wrong place with the wrong guys. This is just not a good working situation by anyone’s standards. And I’d think seriously about changing it.

I wouldn't say that freyed tempers are conducive to anything, I would just say that they are an obvious possiblilty, and I have seen writer / performer domestics in my studio on many occasions... On only one occasion have I ever actually had to say "here's the tapes of what you've done so far, now get out" which as it happened brought the two space cadets involved spiralling back down to Earth and they settled their differences... Unfortunately, as an engineer trying to make a living, I cannot afford to vet people for social skills before I accept a contract from them...

The Bob Dylan reference is to the fact that he never used click tracks, he apparently didn't even use cans half the time when he was recording, he preferred to let the mix back bleed into the microphones... Apparently he didn't care a whit for the polished produced product, he only wanted to get a feeling, something organic down onto tape, to capture an idea...

As I said, I would love to only work with seasoned professionals, but I've got rent to pay...

On your other point about my approach and yours differing, studio recording and post production is my thing, not getting the best out of performers. As you may have noticed from my posts, diplomacy isn't one of my strongest suits... I record with a view to getting good data onto tape, getting the performance correct is the artists responsibility, or the producer if they can afford one... I am not an artist or producer, but a studio engineer, and a very good one, or so I remind everyone often enough, but that is all I take responsibility for, and I prefer if someone tells me immediately if they don't agree with my methods, and then the matter can be sorted out...

[Lazz]

Hey Mr P,

I couldn't have noticed any absence of diplomacy - but I do notice your tendency towards honesty.

That's a good thing.

I appreciate it.

Funny thing - thinking about our discussion I did happen to recall one particular drummer from my past associations - a very unique and influential guy whose impact on the group in question was very profound and powerful - about whom I noticed some very curious quirks of personality (an 'artiste") that meant that if I went out of my way to really piss him off just before a performance then he would seem to attack the show with greater energy and conviction and effectiveness. Wierd. Even stranger for me to adopt such a strategy consciously because it seems alien to my nature. But it always worked. He was always cool in the studio though. And a great player. (But I have to say I would never choose to involve him in any of my own personal projects however good he 'cause we don't share any of that essential sympatico.)

Also in the past I have got to witness some very fractious sessions featuring the most outrageously petulant behaviour from folks who we might all expect to have known better, so I sympathise deeply with your professional circumstances - seems to require the unlikely skill-set of an insensitive brute and a compassionate psychotherapist. (And I still like to keep a copy of the infamous Troggs tape around as a salutory examplar. Anyone wants to hear it, by the way, I can send 'em an MP3) In my imagination I figured this might have something to do with you calling yourself Prometheus - who must have certainly got pissed-off on a regular basis having his liver pecked out every day.

And Hari - yet again we are in accord: Steve Cropper was heavy. When any of those Booker T session dudes laid it down - it surely stayed there. The other stuff you said makes a lot of sense.

[Prometheus]

Well said, I agree with much of what you had to say as well Lazz.

I use a click cause I'm an amateur. If a session gets tense, I would pack and leave.

I've sat in on thousands of professional recordings and never witnessed a "fraught" environment.

You've been lucky with the people you work with then. Maybe you don't have people to support and flat to run on a very modest income and can work with only chosen people, but unfortunately for me, I need to earn a living and am compelled to record whomsoever will pay me. Unfortunately, sometimes this gets fraught, but I'd been a musician long before I was an engineer and I knew what to expect...

I recorded a choir in Scotland at a prestigious event this year, who shall remain nameless. They wouldn't let me place the microphones where I wanted, they ignored my advice about not putting a rotund man with the loudest voice I've ever heard at the front of the choir near the central Blumlein, they actually had all the loud voiced bassos around the central blumlein, they would not let me do any test recordings at their rehearsals to get to grips with any such issues that might arise, and off they all f*cked for their lunch half way through sound checking them and didn't come back... I categorically warned them all the way through this that if they ignored my advice and took shortcuts on procedures, as they did at every turn, they would come across as a rabble in the recording (which incidentally is precisely what they were). They had a stage manager present who knew nothing about acoustics and was only concerned with making sure the choir were arranged in a nice pretty looking manner

There was another fully qualified time served engineer with me who has my complete confidence, so even if there was anything I had missed, he would have spotted it. So when the choir were returned a beautiful, pristine recording, with one man singing louder than everyone else and the females completely drowned out, but all the instruments nicely balanced, they did what musicians always do and accused the sound engineer of screwing the pooch on the recording...

Also in the past I have got to witness some very fractious sessions featuring the most outrageously petulant behaviour from folks who we might all expect to have known better, so I sympathise deeply with your professional circumstances - seems to require the unlikely skill-set of an insensitive brute and a compassionate psychotherapist. (And I still like to keep a copy of the infamous Troggs tape around as a salutory examplar. Anyone wants to hear it, by the way, I can send 'em an MP3) In my imagination I figured this might have something to do with you calling yourself Prometheus - who must have certainly got pissed-off on a regular basis having his liver pecked out every day.

I'd like to hear your mp3, if you wouldn't mind, and if I can return the favour, let me know...

prometheus888@gmail.com

The prometheus name acutally dates back to before I was a sound engineer, it was actually (being the modest chap I am ) more to do with the part of the legend where he takes a firebrand back to man from the Sun...

hey! nice discussion...

click tracks are not really needed while recording jazz, all jazzers that I've known had regular daily practice sessions with a metronome to achieve a good and strong timing sense, it's not common for a jazz bass player to rush or slow the tempo, in fact if he/she does it, he/she is not going to be called again for recording or even playing!.

compression and reverb settings are not so difficult to do in this enviroment, also delay settings are easy if the player keeps a steady tempo.

also some of my favorite songs have tempo "imperfections" (beatles, led zeppelin...) not being that a big issue...

one good example of a human metronome is guitarist steve cropper from booker t and the mg's who once said: "give me a pulse and you can be sure it won't move".

"modern" music needs a click track in order to fit all loops and time fx properly.

so my 2 cents are: click track? yes or no, depending on what is the final product.

an engineer needs to be able to work in different music worlds with different artists. my experience is that if the engineer thinks you are an amateur he/she is going to impose his/her rules, but if he/she respect you as an artist, he/she is going to do his/her job. also in a professional enviroment the producer has the last word. not the engineer.

bye!

For one thing, most people cannot afford a producer, so the engineer has to adopt a de facto producers role, For another, if I was working to a click, and timed a reverb, delay or compressor release that was not perfect right to the millisecond, I would wake up screaming in the middle of the night with the wife trying to calm me down and tell me it was only a dream...

Obviously since no human can keep timing to a millisecond over a three or four minute piece of music, correct tempo based time domain FX are impossible, so if a musician really hates clicks, you've just got to get it as good as possible, and if you're using a delay, riding the tap manually might be the best solution. With compression and reverb, it is not quite so critical to be perfect... Joe Public might not hear the difference, but any engineer worth his salt would...

And before anyone says it, yes, I know I am the most analy retentive sound recorder on Earth...

I agree entirely with this statement, and not just for the recording environment! This would go for ANY environment! If I have to work with people that get stressed if they can't have their own way, or refuse to see other points of view, then I don't want to be there!

Again, this is all very well if you're a fabulously wealthy recording industry giant who can tell people to jump, how high to jump and have never heard the word "no" in your life, but some of us mere mortals have to lower our standards a bit and work with the little people...

To quite honest, if someone wanted to pay me 30 dollars an hour to record Kermit the frog singing Frank Sinatra, and they turned out to be a complete arse to work with, I guarantee that as long as the payments were prompt I would learn to love it...

Edited September 18, 2005 by Prometheus

[Prometheus]

Sounds like you and I have completely different working practices.

These are elements of the post-production palette for me.

Sounds like maybe you use a studio to "make" music product whereas I use a studio to record music that's being made. I could be wrong. Please let me know. But it could explain the associated differences in tools and values and approach.

I am not quite clear what you mean to say with the Dylan reference, but disgree with the statement it qualifies. Maybe it depends on what we mean by “successful”. My measure of success has to satisfy a personal aesthetic and not current fashions – although I get a kick out of plenty enough of those, they’re certainly not part of what I’m after. Extremely few of the recordings I choose to own because of their inherent beauty and power have anything to do with a click track. Neither do they have anything to do with Robert Zimmerman. Yet still, by my chosen standards, they are hugely successful.

I can spout a list if you need.

Nor have any of the recordings I have been involved with – apart from the one occasion I mentioned previously – had anything to do with a click. And it’s up to you whether you choose to consider them “successful” or not. But I definitely do. (I can spout a list of these, too, if you need, although it’s obviously much less than the previous proffered list, and contains nothing that risks being on “Top Of The Pops” or providing the backdrop for a rave.)

I think successful was a bad choice of word... I don't have much time for the over produced, plastic, pop art chart culture either, and not all of my favourite recordings have particular orthodox production...

For what it's worth, I have a lot of respect for your production method, and do work that way quite a lot myslef, but you're right, I do tend to use a lot of what you would call post production techniques right from the recording stage... It just really depends on the nature of what I'm recording... The best (from my point of view) work that I do is in working with maverick songwriters, and doing the Buddy Holly idea of thinking of the craziest thing that you could possibly do, and then thinking of a way to do it...

My favourite thing I've done so far is on a recording by a writer called Chris Palazzi, coming up with the idea of putting a recording made on location at another planet on it. As far as I know, this has never been done before. NASA gave us permission to use the recording provided they were given due credit, which is only fair. The recording was done on location by the Cassini probe at Saturn's Magnetosphere, half way across the solar system, and downsampled into the audio range... It sounds kind of like an old analogue eerie synth effect that you might have heard in an old episode of Dr Who...

[Nightwolf]

they did what musicians always do and accused the sound engineer of screwing the pooch on the recording...

And that will in turn effect your reputation.

I do understand and respect your position. I don't record for a living, so I can choose who I want to work with.

Most of the professional recordings I sat in on (not recorded) were HUGE budget with one person clearly in charge. I think having a clearly defined leader can help. I see that as a big problem with bands in general, without a clear leader they all want to run the show their way, which will cause trouble.

I couldn't have noticed any absence of diplomacy - but I do notice your tendency towards honesty.That's a good thing.

I appreciate it.

I agree, nothing wrong with a discussion where people disagree, as long as it remains adult, which this has.

[Lazz]

... some of us mere mortals have to lower our standards a bit and work with the little people... ... I need to earn a living and am compelled to record whomsoever will pay me.

Anyone can combat an argument by reference to facts and objectivity!

But seriously - this is a harsh reminder of the realities on the other side of the glass when you've got a facility that needs to pay it's way and be available 24 hrs (hopefully). Just the struggle to keep pace with developments has to take a heavy toll. And then adding insult to injury you're forced to work in the Bozone.

I don't envy the gig at all.

yes, I know I am the most analy retentive sound recorder on Earth...

Ha!

I take it you mean "meticulous".

That's just what we expect from an engineer.

Good man yourself.

I'd like to hear your mp3, if you wouldn't mind, and if I can return the favour, let me know...

8 MegaBytes of epic Spinal Tap proportions.

I sent it, but it may have been blocked by my server due to being an MP3.

Let me know whether you got it or not.

[Lazz]

...choir in Scotland ... who shall remain nameless... wouldn't let me ... ignored my advice ... would not let me do any test recordings at their rehearsals ... all f*cked for their lunch half way through sound check ... warned them all the way through this that if ... a stage manager .. who knew nothing about acoustics ... only concerned with making sure the choir were arranged in a nice pretty looking manner

Tough gig - bad news.

Organised a quick scratch live recording once myself for jazz ensemble with sinfonietta. Maybe 56 players and a conductor. I was lucky enough to find an engineer who regularly recorded one of the leading London symphonies. His approach seemed to be to concentrate on recording the room sound. We used a very decent concert hall at Goldsmiths College and basic balanced sound re-inforcement. He found himself a sweet spot up near the balcony, stayed out of the way, hung a stereo pair, and we went 2-track direct to dat. Worked out ok, too. Simple and effective.

Edited September 18, 2005 by Lazz

[Prometheus]

Tough gig - bad news.

Organised a quick scratch live recording once myself for jazz ensemble with sinfonietta. Maybe 56 players and a conductor. I was lucky enough to find an engineer who regularly recorded one of the leading London symphonies. His approach seemed to be to concentrate on recording the room sound. We used a very decent concert hall at Goldsmiths College and basic balanced sound re-inforcement. He found himself a sweet spot up near the balcony, stayed out of the way, hung a stereo pair, and we went 2-track direct to dat. Worked out ok, too. Simple and effective.

We did a direct to stereo recording too, but much of the problems stemmed from the fact that there was a full house of about a thousand people present, so moving out and setting up distance mikes to pick up the room sound was not a practical possibility since the room was chockablock full. Also, we had to provide reinforcement as well, and they weren't willing to pay enough money to hire a powerful enough PA, so we had to drive the PA to just below the howlround threshold, and we had to set up the control / monitor area in an utterly ridiculous location...

The whole thing was crazy, and it's actually that gig which made me decide I was never doing reinforcement again unless I am assured of complete cooperation with all my setup requirements...

8 MegaBytes of epic Spinal Tap proportions.

I sent it, but it may have been blocked by my server due to being an MP3.

Let me know whether you got it or not.

Roger that, I'm gonna check my email now...

I think having a clearly defined leader can help. I see that as a big problem with bands in general, without a clear leader they all want to run the show their way, which will cause trouble.

Yeah, I concur... I couldn't agree more...

[Prometheus]

8 MegaBytes of epic Spinal Tap proportions.

I sent it, but it may have been blocked by my server due to being an MP3.

Let me know whether you got it or not.

Ah yeah, I checked the account and it doesn't seem to have arrived...

[Lazz]

Ah yeah, I checked the account and it doesn't seem to have arrived...

I just tried again and have discovered that it exceeds my file limit by a mere 2kb.

WTF!!

I seek a solution.

[Steve]

I just tried again and have discovered that it exceeds my file limit by a mere 2kb.

WTF!!

I seek a solution.

Send it in two halfs...

My favourite thing I've done so far is on a recording by a writer called Chris Palazzi, coming up with the idea of putting a recording made on location at another planet on it. As far as I know, this has never been done before. NASA gave us permission to use the recording provided they were given due credit, which is only fair. The recording was done on location by the Cassini probe at Saturn's Magnetosphere, half way across the solar system, and downsampled into the audio range... It sounds kind of like an old analogue eerie synth effect that you might have heard in an old episode of Dr Who...

This nearly got by without notice there! I think this is pretty impressive stuff to have on your CV (Resume)!

[Prometheus]

This nearly got by without notice there! I think this is pretty impressive stuff to have on your CV (Resume)!

It certainly was a hell of a lot of fun doing it...

I just tried again and have discovered that it exceeds my file limit by a mere 2kb.

WTF!!

I seek a solution.

Chop the last five seconds from it... Seriousy, if you go to Google and open a gmail account, not just for sending me an mp3 but for future reference, you get 2 Gigabytes of storage!

[john]

Whoa

This topic has grown since I last checked!

Been a bit of debate, weapons were drawn, but apparently no serious injuries... :

Cheers

John

[Donna]

Delightful read, gentlemen.

To answer the question of John's! It was almost a year ago. Couldn't even fathom all the gear. The producer/engineer a Juliard graduate, nice man, let me do my thing. It wasn't my stuff (never been in a pro studio for my own songs - I consider it fortunate I've been to as many as I have).

About the click...I could get by without it when I'm up and playing regularly (I'm talking drums mostly, and recording at home). I love not needing it and it's SOLELY due to not having time to devote to the instrument that >I< need it. (Also loved practicing w/ the metronome.) But I would discuss using it or not with the engineer if there was an issue (and probably would find this out before the session occurred).

I used to do demo's of mine w/ my good buddy Mike. We would discuss things beforehand; and we got down to business musically right away because of it.