(Why) Is Modern Pop Music So Terrible?

[Just1L]

Think of every band between 1965-1970 being exactly like the Monkees. That is a lot of what we have now. Audition winners from one place or another. All perfectly put together to form an image. It's commercial. There used to be a nice mix of both produced bands and actual bands playing for the love of playing. The latter group is harder and harder to find at the "hit" level. But they do come by from time to time.

[MonoStone]

I'm very intrigued so looking into Max Martin...

 

https://storytelling.di.se/max-martin-english/

 

Still reading it, but my first thought was - He was really good as Rollo in Vikings! 

[Rudi]

I've just had a vision of the Hulk doing some rap. The words were limited to 2 lines

'puny humans' and 'Hulk smash'. 

 

It was, you know.... something I could relate to.

[Richard Tracey]

On 04/02/2018 at 1:49 AM, MonoStone said:

I'm very intrigued so looking into Max Martin...

 

https://storytelling.di.se/max-martin-english/

 

Still reading it, but my first thought was - He was really good as Rollo in Vikings! 

 

As much as I don’t agree with why they use him, we cannot discount the fact he has an ear for a hit song. The problem is, that doesn’t always mean that it will be good and everyone will enjoy it.

 

The one comment made in the video that is so true and really annoys me beyond anything else, is how they push a really crap song into your conscious/subconscious - unconscious!!! - mind till you start to like it as it becomes so familiar.

 

Most listeners don’t have the same interest in music as most of the members on here. We appreciate music, the nuances of a well written/played and produced song. But we are a minority of the listening public. Most people are happy to go along with what they are told to like. That is why advertising is a huge business.

[Richard Tracey]

34 minutes ago, fasstrack said:

Fair disclosure: I stopped listening after Stevie Wonder and Donny Hathaway, ca '70s. Nothing I heard after that grabbed my attention melodically, harmonically, lyrically, humorously, or in terms of the ASB tradition of blues, folk, black church country/Appalachian, jazz, theater/film music, R & B, melody-driven rock/pop. Shoot me---or straighten me out (not kidding).

 

What have I missed since then (VERY serious question from a guy who teaches kids, and they want to learn Ed Sheeran songs, etc.---which I'd neither heard or heard of)?

 

To qualify that a bit: I heard, again through teaching (or plain old serendipity), some pop I did like: Californication, A Thousand Miles, (less so) Wake Me Up When September Ends*.

 

*September....is an OK to pretty good song, not great . The sentiment I can dig. Only OK, b/c the opening guitar figure is very beginner level: playing adjacent G and B strings to a fingered D to make a pretty forgettable riff (Californication's bass and guitar opening is way better-written to me)---also the fact that they 'go up', but don't come down on '...when September E--nds') til the very last time. Sloppy writing, w/o enough time spent or second-guessing (Johnny Mercer said in interview in  Max Wilk's Their Playing Our Song that he always had 4 to 5 alternate versions of any lyric ready---like THAT). I thought the bridge probably the best part, and that they could be good songwriters if they only studied and took it more seriously. This song should have been better...

 

The thing is, when we close our mind to other possibilities, then we narrow what we can appreciate, especially when there is so much more out there to discover.

 

There are numerous songs and albums that have been released since the 70’s that eclipse anything that came before. They will probably look to that era as their influence, but they build on it.

 

1973 Bowie release Life on Mars. Incredible song with so many different little nuances to find in the songwriting and the lyrics, while a lot of people think are nonsensical, I absolutely love.

 

That is just one song since 1970, I could write a book with the amount of music you could discover and appreciate.

 

I love film soundtracks, classical music as well as a lot of other music.

 

My favourite film composer was John Barry. In my eyes he was a master, but it doesn’t stop me appreciating other film composers that have followed, most who will cite him as being their influence.

 

Go on, take a leap of faith and dive right in and see what’s out there.

[Richard Tracey]

3 hours ago, fasstrack said:

That 'everyman' thing: '3 chords and the truth'. WHOSE 'truth'? It's as if the purveyors of that thinking are afraid of losing their audience or 'natural' quality if they study and become better musicians. I'm not sure whether to find that laughable or sad---but I find it hard to respect people who think that way.

 

You mentioned ‘Elitism’ in the next part, but I believe it also exists here. Not every person on the planet wants to listen to a complicated piece of music that twists and turns and changes direction at the drop of a hat. A lot of people like that. The majority don’t. That is why Jazz isn’t bigger than it is. Why classical isn’t bigger than it is. It is a niche market and it has its followers, but the general public just want to listen to something that sounds good. They can put on in the background and listen to, without taxing their brain too much.

 

Every style of music has its place. Rap is still huge, but I find it turgid and boring. It all sounds the same, but it sells and dominates the airwaves. It is one of the most popular forms of music, with all classes of people listening to it. There isn’t much imagination in it. Sometimes it’s the same beat all the way through, with someone rapping over the top.

 

Playing ‘3’ chords in a song is another thing. You can use those ‘3’ chords to create wonderful, beautiful pieces of music,  it it is still the same ‘3’ chords. Does that make it wrong, or does it make you a good songwriter that you can use only ‘3’ chords to make something so rich and interesting. Some of the most famous songs in the world have been written with less than that. I am sure there is one song that uses ‘1’ chord all the way through, but it is a classic song.

 

Musical snobbery annoys me. Music should be for everyone and should be enjoyed by everyone, in whatever form it takes. A life without music - to me - is a boring, horrible place to exist.

 

I can listen to music from the 60’s and find enjoyment in it. I can listen to music in the 70’s / 80’s and 90’s and find enjoyment in it. Even now in the 2000’s, there are a lot of really good artists out there creating fantastic music.

 

Its about opening your mind to new possibilities- you won’t know what you are missing till you let it in.

[Richard Tracey]

3 hours ago, fasstrack said:

Also, FWIW: I spent 45 years in jazz, and still play it regularly, and find many musicians equally stuck by their own self-limiting design in certain eras or styles, never get past copying their heroes---and, especially among the younger players I hear coming out of colleges---unknowledgeable about standard tunes (let's not even TALK about pop), can't accompany a singer, can't or won't swing, can't play a melody correctly or with feeling b/c they're too concerned w/soloing on what they practiced abstractly or to play-a-longs at home all day). So narrow mindedness and self-delusion are, sadly, rampant in more than one music field...

 

This assumes that those musicians want to get past what they have achieved. They may be happy knowing what they have learned is enough to see them through what they are doing. That doesn’t mean it in narrow mindedness and self-delusion, it just means they either don’t want to go any further cause there is no need, or they make lack the patience or skills to take it to the next level.

 

I have a friend who was classically trained in the piano when he was young. Learned to play the guitar by himself and loves the guitar. He spends every hour he can learning new ways of playing it and trying out all different styles of guitar to achieve that.

 

He is actually a really good songwriter when he puts his mind to it, but he would rather spend time practicing and learning and not doing anything with that skill. To me that is wasted. That is learning something that only you get to hear, but you are putting that above something you are good at.

 

I love to compose music and sit and write when ever I get the chance. This same friend is amazed at the music I can come up with, but I have never been trained and I have never learned music theory. I play by ear. I know what I like the sound of and play that.

 

I know people who can play an instrument beautifully, but ask them to come up with something and they freeze. They don’t know how. They have been taught how to play the instrument by reading music, but cannot take that to the next level. They might be a virtuoso, but that is as far as they can go.

 

I can’t blame my friend for wanting to learn and better himself, but then I can’t blame my lack of interest in learning an instrument properly. I love to compose and taking time away from that feels detriment to what I want to achieve at this time.

[Rudi]

1 hour ago, Richard Tracey said:

Musical snobbery annoys me. Music should be for everyone and should be enjoyed by everyone, in whatever form it takes. A life without music - to me - is a boring, horrible place to exist.

 

I can listen to music from the 60’s and find enjoyment in it. I can listen to music in the 70’s / 80’s and 90’s and find enjoyment in it. Even now in the 2000’s, there are a lot of really good artists out there creating fantastic music.

 

Its about opening your mind to new possibilities- you won’t know what you are missing till you let it in

 

Pop is convenience music, like fast food is a convenience meal. It does what you want it to with a minimum of input from yourself. Its purpose is unashamedly commercial. It doesnt have to be any good.

 

I remember the term 'heavy' before metal hijacked it. It usually described classical music that was harder to appreciate. Scheonberg was heavy, Mozart was light. The point is some music requires active listening. You need to invest time and attention before you 'get it'. 

 

Modern pop music is more efficient than any pop music that has gone before. The film supports that assertion. 

[Richard Tracey]

21 minutes ago, Rudi said:

 

Pop is convenience music, like fast food is a convenience meal. It does what you want it to with a minimum of input from yourself. Its purpose is unashamedly commercial. It doesnt have to be any good.

 

I remember the term 'heavy' before metal hijacked it. It usually described classical music that was harder to appreciate. Scheonberg was heavy, Mozart was light. The point is some music requires active listening. You need to invest time and attention before you 'get it'. 

 

Modern pop music is more efficient than any pop music that has gone before. The film supports that assertion. 

 

Thats true Rudi, but some people state that unless a piece of music is technically played and composed it isn’t worth listening to.

 

I think that is just limiting themselves and they are missing out.

[Rudi]

1 minute ago, Richard Tracey said:

Thats true Rudi, but some people state that unless a piece of music is technically played and composed it isn’t worth listening to.

 

I think that is just limiting themselves and they are missing out.

 

'Those' people have made an assertion. Its up to them to supply some sort of justification, and I think that is impossible. 

No one can claim ownership of language. 

 

except theologians 

[MonoStone]

10 hours ago, Richard Tracey said:

 

As much as I don’t agree with why they use him, we cannot discount the fact he has an ear for a hit song. The problem is, that doesn’t always mean that it will be good and everyone will enjoy it.

 

The one comment made in the video that is so true and really annoys me beyond anything else, is how they push a really crap song into your conscious/subconscious - unconscious!!! - mind till you start to like it as it becomes so familiar.

 

Most listeners don’t have the same interest in music as most of the members on here. We appreciate music, the nuances of a well written/played and produced song. But we are a minority of the listening public. Most people are happy to go along with what they are told to like. That is why advertising is a huge business.

 

Well I'd trade places with him any day.... or if I was asked to join the team I'd be on a plane now. But I don't think I'm capable of writing a hit pop song, partly because I don't feel that kind of music (although I can understand the appeal of some, and yeah I think he's been involved in some of the better ones...and I don't think it's as easy as the video hints at. I reckon it's actually really hard to get right.).

 

I have no problem with the people writing and producing the hits, I just think it's a shame that pop isn't more diverse...and I don't have a lot of artistic respect for performers who don't write their own (that includes the old time performers who didn't), but I do appreciate a great voice and performance.

 

In terms of brainwashing...I wonder...what's changed that much? I mean in the UK TOTP and Radio 1 made the hits with the same method back in our day, whether that was some new romantics or the latest from the Hit Factory. And on the other end... John Peel could break a band making an awful noise just because he said they were cool. Just promotion. A lot of people are sheep, as you said in a roundabout way, and I'd love to make money from sheep....if I had pop in my bones I'd be trying to cash in!   

 

What maybe bothers me most is... If Max and his crew have written that many hits, and then the other guy mentioned in the video too, I feel like it's probably the case that it would be hard for a new writer/producer to get a look in....it's probably totally sewn up between a surprisingly small number, and that's hard on the many...and leads to the sameness....

[Richard Tracey]

13 minutes ago, MonoStone said:

 

Well I'd trade places with him any day.... or if I was asked to join the team I'd be on a plane now. But I don't think I'm capable of writing a hit pop song, partly because I don't feel that kind of music (although I can understand the appeal of some, and yeah I think he's been involved in some of the better ones...and I don't think it's as easy as the video hints at. I reckon it's actually really hard to get right.).

 

I have no problem with the people writing and producing the hits, I just think it's a shame that pop isn't more diverse...and I don't have a lot of artistic respect for performers who don't write their own (that includes the old time performers who didn't), but I do appreciate a great voice and performance.

 

In terms of brainwashing...I wonder...what's changed that much? I mean in the UK TOTP and Radio 1 made the hits with the same method back in our day, whether that was some new romantics or the latest from the Hit Factory. And on the other end... John Peel could break a band making an awful noise just because he said they were cool. Just promotion. A lot of people are sheep, as you said in a roundabout way, and I'd love to make money from sheep....if I had pop in my bones I'd be trying to cash in!   

 

What maybe bothers me most is... If Max and his crew have written that many hits, and then the other guy mentioned in the video too, I feel like it's probably the case that it would be hard for a new writer/producer to get a look in....it's probably totally sewn up between a surprisingly small number, and that's hard on the many...and leads to the sameness....

 

I agree. I would like them to take more risk. The way they used to. It’s apparent the record companies are to scared to take that risk, but why does it have to cost $3m to kick start a new artist - invest less, but in more artists. Give the listening and buying public the choice and let them decide.

 

We had more variety in the 70’s and 80’s, but we had some fantastic artists during that time, who knew how to write a song. The majority of them wrote their own music and played their own instruments, hell a lot of them produced their own music as well.

 

Yes, we had the looks to sell music back then, but really, how much did the look sell the artist, as much as the music did.

 

There are some fantastic artists out there just now, making exceptional music, but the music industry isn’t for them. They are different, they do not conform to what they think people want to listen to, so the ‘sheep’ don’t get to hear it.

 

Yes, we had blaggers back in the day, but nowhere near as bad as now. They just do it in a totally different way. Where does that $3m go - advertising, getting music on radio, tv etc. If you stop that and let the music sell itself, we might actually have a fairer and more open music industry.

 

They need to stop forcing mediocrity down our throats and let the listener have the choice, wide choice, to decide.

[Richard Tracey]

4 hours ago, fasstrack said:

The public isn't as stupid as you intellectuals take us to be'.

 

Oh, I so wish this was true. But given the state of the US and UK at the moment I fear that she is in the minority. The public claim not to be stupid, but it is amazing what they believe. <<that and her grammar is terrible😜😉>>

 

As for the majority of people who listen to music, they don’t care what they are listening to, as long as they like it. They don’t care about melody, chords, what the lyrical content is etc, they only want to hear something that is pleasing to their ears. People listen to music on crappy little headphones, because they don’t care how it sounds.

 

This is why we have the music industry we have.

[MikeRobinson]

Well, I hate to admit that I well-remember disco, but I do ... and it sucked.

 

In fact, an awful lot of the music that I grew-up with during those years ... sucked.  But I suppose that "the air-waves had to be continuously filled-up with something," 

[Richard Tracey]

16 minutes ago, fasstrack said:

Yesterday I was stewing over something rotten that happened, so I took in a film about P.T. Barnum. The movie itself was middling, maybe fair to good. The songs, despite enthusiastic performances, were to me throwaway. I can't remember one only a few hours later. But, I have to say, in the row in back of me the kids were singing along (the guy in front was moving his arm to the beat---which was rammed anvil-like). I guess I'm too close to this stuff, that has to be part of it, that I don't listen like a regular audience member. 

 

If you are talking about the new film - The Greatest Showman - then that soundtrack is massive at the moment, the way Frozen was when it came out. I was listening to the radio yesterday (long car journey) and they were talking about this. Apparently the director would only approve the music if after hearing it, he was still singing and tapping away the next day. The music was to be an earworm, something that you hear and can’t get rid of. That is what music is nowadays.

[Richard Tracey]

45 minutes ago, fasstrack said:

Well, it sure wormed its way outta MY ear pretty quick...

 

To be honest, I don’t think you are the kind of person they are aiming for. They are going for the younger demographic with these films and songs.

My daughter is singing part of the “This Is Me’ song in their High School concert soon. It shows who is picking up on this music. She even wants to see the film. Well her mum can take her as it’s not my idea of a good trip to the cinema.

[Richard Tracey]

1 minute ago, fasstrack said:

I'm glad young girls like the songs.

 

AND:

 

As long as they're singing SOMETHING---or have music in ANY capacity in schools---there's hope...

 

Well she is learning piano and does the national youth choir and voice at school. Her music teacher allows her to practice the piano instead of doing what they are as he has identified this is the best use of her time and encourages it, so that is good.

 

I am trying to get her to appreciate all music and take an interest and hopefully she will want to start making her own someday. I have the setup for it, so she might as well get the use of it.

[Just1L]

On February 13, 2018 at 6:46 AM, Richard Tracey said:

 

Well she is learning piano and does the national youth choir and voice at school. Her music teacher allows her to practice the piano instead of doing what they are as he has identified this is the best use of her time and encourages it, so that is good.

 

I am trying to get her to appreciate all music and take an interest and hopefully she will want to start making her own someday. I have the setup for it, so she might as well get the use of it.

 

That's great to hear. We are fortunate that we have a very good music program in our school district. All kids are required to either pick up an instrument or join the choir in 6th grade. There is, for those that must just hate music (or those that don't have the balls or sense to make their kids pick an instrument for one year) a music study class with a few kids in it. My son decided to play the clarinet. Got upset just about every day for a week or so, then it all clicked and he's a very good musician now. Just this past week he came down and asked to borrow my Bass guitar. First time he's tried it and first time he's shown any interest in it. He took it up to his room. He said he studied the notes online for about 20 minutes and then tried it. Thanks to the clarinet, he now can read the music and play just about anything he needs and it took him only a couple of days. Music is just so good in so many ways it's crazy people don't at least make their kids try it one time for one semester or year. Just the benefit to your brain alone is worth it. 

[Richard Tracey]

41 minutes ago, Just1L said:

 

That's great to hear. We are fortunate that we have a very good music program in our school district. All kids are required to either pick up an instrument or join the choir in 6th grade. There is, for those that must just hate music (or those that don't have the balls or sense to make their kids pick an instrument for one year) a music study class with a few kids in it. My son decided to play the clarinet. Got upset just about every day for a week or so, then it all clicked and he's a very good musician now. Just this past week he came down and asked to borrow my Bass guitar. First time he's tried it and first time he's shown any interest in it. He took it up to his room. He said he studied the notes online for about 20 minutes and then tried it. Thanks to the clarinet, he now can read the music and play just about anything he needs and it took him only a couple of days. Music is just so good in so many ways it's crazy people don't at least make their kids try it one time for one semester or year. Just the benefit to your brain alone is worth it. 

 

Yeah, we have something similar when they start High School, although they have introduced the option to learn an instrument (they choose) at Primary School.

I think with the advent of YouTube, it is so much easier for them to learn on their own. Their minds are like sponges.

As for the clicking thing, you are right, they need to persevere and not give up because they don’t pick something up with seconds of trying.

[Just1L]

On February 14, 2018 at 9:39 AM, Richard Tracey said:

I think with the advent of YouTube, it is so much easier for them to learn on their own. Their minds are like sponges.

 

100% correct.