Songwriting approaches

[Branden]

As a beginner, I wondered how others approach writing songs.

 

Do you concentrate on writing one song at a time, hone it to perfection, and only then move on to another?

Do you prefer to constantly jump between different songs?

Doesn't matter as long as you enjoy the process?

 

I have 3 songs to work on at the moment, but could easily see myself getting lost in trying to perfect a single track or losing focus and having dozens of half finished songs ideas.

 

[Peggy]

Kinda depends for me.  With lyrics I like to focus on them til "first draft" . That could be hours or days. Generally, I have a pretty good idea of the melody when the lyric is at that point.  Most of my draft lyrics I like to put out on the critique boards.  Making some adjustments when I can see the issues.  Sometimes I need a walk away to let a critique sink in.  

 

When I start on the music bed, I lay different tracks, sometimes different days, different instruments.. generally in order drums, piano/keyboards, strings or brass, etc.  Then bass, guitar..Those take awhile because I don't play those instruments and have to work on a different timeline. I sometimes put these out for critique before moving forward.

 

So I can work on multiple songs at a time during that period.

 

When the bass and guitar are pretty solid, i work on the vocals.  If it's a male vocal.. there's another wait period.. 

Once vocals are started, I don't work on much else but the one song.  When i start on mixing the bass, guitar and vocals into the bed, I mostly only work on that song.  

 

I have many lyrics not set to music yet and several music beds without the guitar, bass and vocals.  

 

Probably not the most efficient but that's how it works, or not works, for me.

 

[Cody]

Personally, I just try to never force anything....it either comes or it doesn't, getting lost in lots of half-baked ideas is the fun of it for me ,  you get to go back later and hear it like it was someone elses idea/song, and not like you can't always just come back to it, or don't.......

 

I'm a firm believer in the quantity over quality when it comes to songwriting, we'll all write stinkers, do you really want to spend days/weeks/months/years? trying to make a bad song better? yeah it can be done, all the little recording tricks/extra instrumentation, getting a great vocal performance, etc..... but to what end? A duck is still a duck and now that you've identified that and got it out of your system, time to move on to the next thing. 

 

Focusing on "perfection" is a zero sum game that leads to madness and the real risk of just never finishing anything, I personally could never see the fun in working on one thing for more than a short amount of time, but songwriting is as individual a process as putting on pants....some of us do do it both legs at once   .......nothing will ever be perfect, finding a balance of good enough for now and good enough forever......easier said than done, and IMO nothing is ever done .  If they're pieces you want to perform, I hope you won't do them the same way every time anyway  

[Cody]

1 hour ago, Peggy said:

Probably not the most efficient but that's how it works, or not works, for me.

 

actually sounds 10x's better than any non-methods I have  

 

It does just boil down to finding what works best for you, but it for sure never hurts to hear how others go about it!  I was probably a little too fascinated and amused recently watching a "producer" try to use a free program to record a track in his fancy studio, easily 100k+ worth of gear just in the shot...........he gave up after nearly an hour of trying to dub over a click track   Great guy, great musician, and great at what he does, and had to give him massive props for even attempting, and even more so for sharing his failures hahah

[John W Selleck]

I think almost all of us are working on multiple things at any given time. For me lyrics are first, and most written in 30-45 minutes, but I am hearing/feeling what they should sound like all the time. Almost all of us are constantly rewriting. For me, when a song is "Finished", I may still hear something that should have been a tiny bit different, but I won't go through changing it unless someone, someday. hopefully picks it up.

[Branden]

Definitely food for thought here. Cheers all 

 

My initial takeaway points - 

 

Get writing lyrics. They help with melody.

Work on multiple tracks, and concentrate on one if inspiration comes naturally. Don't force it.

Songs are rarely 'finished'. Try and know when to stop tinkering.

 

Will continue to ponder...

[MikeRobinson]

Maybe it's worth mentioning that Charles M. Schulz created 17,897 Peanuts comic strips ... one at a time, by hand.

 

The secret just might have been that "Sparky" treated his creative work, every single day without fail, "as his job."  Whether an idea came that day or not, he was fairly a slave to his routine.  There was a sacrosanct period at the beginning of each day when the phone was not allowed to ring.  He started each and every day with: a pencil and his doodle-pad.

 

He frequently said that he had conditioned his subconscious to expect his daily routine.  "His Muse knew when it was expected to show up."  But, above and beyond that, he had perfected the discipline to reliably turn "that Musing," whatever it turned out to be, into a predictable commercial product.

 

As for myself, I think it safe to say that "creativity is not deterministic."  That is to say – "at the time that you are actually creating something, you don't know what you're doing ... and it's okay."  Furthermore, you just might wind up with "more than one(!) alternative," and that's okay too.  "Just keep the tape recorder cell phone running, and never erase anything."

 

Years from now, of course, "when you are a gadzillionaire thanks to your Hit Song," the revisionists will rewrite your "official history" for you.  They'll make it look easy.  They'll even make it look preordained.

[Branden]

8 hours ago, MikeRobinson said:

The secret just might have been that "Sparky" treated his creative work, every single day without fail, "as his job."  Whether an idea came that day or not, he was fairly a slave to his routine. 

 

Good points.. I work out a couple of times a day for health and fitness. If i just did that when I felt in the mood, i probably wouldn't do much 😄

 

I get results from my fitness workouts. Makes sense that creative results could increase using the same mentality.

 

Cheers

[gradual]

On 8/17/2020 at 4:01 PM, Branden said:

As a beginner, I wondered how others approach writing songs.

 

Do you concentrate on writing one song at a time, hone it to perfection, and only then move on to another?

Do you prefer to constantly jump between different songs?

Doesn't matter as long as you enjoy the process?

 

I have 3 songs to work on at the moment, but could easily see myself getting lost in trying to perfect a single track or losing focus and having dozens of half finished songs ideas.

 

 

I usually focus on one song at a time. I might get overwhelmed if I try to do too much at once, but that's just me. I could easily see the opposite approach as being equally valid. In fact, I wouldn't be against trying it that way myself someday. I think it's just about experimenting and finding what works best for you. Everybody has their own individual way of doing it.

 

8 hours ago, Branden said:

 

Good points.. I work out a couple of times a day for health and fitness. If i just did that when I felt in the mood, i probably wouldn't do much 😄

 

I get results from my fitness workouts. Makes sense that creative results could increase using the same mentality.

 

Cheers

 

My fitness regimen has gone into the toilet due to recent events, but I agree there's something to that mentality. I don't think it's necessary to treat writing like a job (most of us already have full-time jobs!), but the idea of not waiting for inspiration to strike and "just doing it" really works well.  I don't write every day, but I do keep an electronic file (a notebook works too) where I jot down ideas for later use (typically song titles), so if I'm ever stuck, I can just pull something out at random and start working. By now, I probably have more of those little snippets than I'll ever get around to using.

 

Also, coffee works too...in moderation, of course.

[Branden]

2 hours ago, gradual said:

 

I usually focus on one song at a time. I might get overwhelmed if I try to do too much at once, but that's just me. I could easily see the opposite approach as being equally valid. In fact, I wouldn't be against trying it that way myself someday. I think it's just about experimenting and finding what works best for you. Everybody has their own individual way of doing it.

 

 

My fitness regimen has gone into the toilet due to recent events, but I agree there's something to that mentality. I don't think it's necessary to treat writing like a job (most of us already have full-time jobs!), but the idea of not waiting for inspiration to strike and "just doing it" really works well.  I don't write every day, but I do keep an electronic file (a notebook works too) where I jot down ideas for later use (typically song titles), so if I'm ever stuck, I can just pull something out at random and start working. By now, I probably have more of those little snippets than I'll ever get around to using.

 

Also, coffee works too...in moderation, of course.

 

Think I'm going to try meeting in the middle. Do a handful of rough songs then focus on one. Shall see how that works out

 

I know what you mean about fitness routines in recent times. Difficult to transition from my gym to home exercise. I'm overdosing on Leslie Sansone videos these last months 🤪

[john]

I usually have a bunch of songs going a the same time, all at different stages. That way if inspiration just isn't firing or ideas just aren't working, or my mood is just wrong for the song or task at hand, I can switch.

 

I have full songs plus learning pastiches (just mock ups of the sections or key changes of a song that has something interesting in it. could be a sound, overall production, a musical change, arrangement detail, a new flavour, an effect, a synthesis. I don't need to do the whole song to learn. Just the interesting bit, so sometimes it is a couple of song sections, sometimes a couple of bars), I have lyrics or melodies, arrangements, productions, all different stages. that way I let my muse work on what it is tuned for. When I was hired to do something and working to schedule that doesn't work quite so well but it still works.

[Branden]

31 minutes ago, john said:

I don't need to do the whole song to learn.

 

Good tip that. Made me think.

 

I may be guilty of trying to achieve the whole 9 yards in one go. I should view learning and working on smaller sections as accomplishments in their own right, rather than just the big picture. Cheers

[Cody]

34 minutes ago, Branden said:

 

Good tip that. Made me think.

 

I may be guilty of trying to achieve the whole 9 yards in one go. I should view learning and working on smaller sections as accomplishments in their own right, rather than just the big picture. Cheers

 

That is a good point, and something I've done just never thought much about it.......even if its a 1-5-6-15, minute thing I've done I'll call a song(I have the very loosest of definitions for that......it doesn't need to be on the radio, or virtual playlist anymore I suppose,  to be one  ) anyway.......there's usually just one little line/snippet of sound, or whatever it may be that catches my ear that I'll take with me onto the next one, or make a note of for if/when I ever go back to that one......... also why I find the value of others ears......when they are at an actual WIP stage, not so refined already you wouldn't even be open to the possibility of scrapping it all and starting over.......they might hear something I didn't, or some other direction it could go as often happens....  but then artists being the weirdo bunch they are, usually not willing to share "ideas", but for me that goes back to the thing of maybe you're doing the wrong thing if you're often running out of musical ideas   as @Patchez touched on. 

[john]

4 hours ago, VoiceEx said:

Wow its been a long time since I have been here. I hope everyone is well in these trying times! anyway so lets do this.

For the most part I usually tend to focus on a single song at a time, due to the resource management side of things. I like giving each song the full attention it deserves, even in its initial draft stage. Its a matter of energy conservation for me. Changes will be made, new ideas can come up, technical difficulties can present themselves etc etc. There are a multitude of elements to consider in order to improve the production value of each song. In other words: if I would do this process on multiple songs/albums at once, the time I spend working on them would increase dramatically. Id never get any work done, and chances are that overtime my songs would suffer from that process, due to fatigue and carelessness. To put this in prospective, right now I am working on another homemade album of mine, and I have been working on it for a year now. I only managed to finish around 10 new songs. There are suppose to be 20 songs. So... yeah xD

Though that's not to say that there aren't any exceptions. There are. There have been a few cases where I started to work on a particular song, and then during the process of composing I id get an idea or two for something else entirely. Especially if i`m writing several songs that directly connect to each other (lets say like a trilogy). In cases like that i`m more likely to incorporate existing, corresponding elements in said songs. To emphasize that they are all a part of the same concept, to further promote their connection to each other. In cases like that I might start working on several songs at once, albeit in very small doses. Little by little. But thats very rare for me to do.

However, that being said, there is another side to this. While I do strive to always find way to improve my work, I also believe that there is no such thing as "prefect song", and nothing can ever really be considered as "finished". You see, a product can be finished. Its technical aspects can be finished. Its production value pushed to the max. A recording session can be finished. But not a song. I think the songs we make serve as a means to inspire us to reflect on them as artists. Each song can become a source of relevant ideas, even after you are done working on them. They are like "time capsules" in a way, always reminding us their creators that we are the instrument. An artists work is never finished. I like to think about it that way. 

Not an uncommon problem. It’s a musical equivalent of shiny paper syndrome, or the grass is always greener.

 

The issue with distracting ideas is simply fixed by discipline not to pursue ideas, but instead scratch record them quickly, even played into a memo recorder works, or storing a performance part (I find this works best by saving my current project, saving it again with a new idea name, reopening my original project and DELETE THE NEW IDEA FROM THE CURRENT PROJECT.

 

It allows you to draw a line under it...     and move on.

 

The same is true for being in search of the perfect song, or the perfect version of a song... as long as you release songs. That’s where set deadlines come in. Public deadlines that are very hard to back down from.

 

Releasing singles, EPs, albums let you draw a very definite line. It allows you to creatively move on. Especially albums. They allow you to wrk out concepts and ideas, indulge experiments, bundle up the results and present them to the public. Think of the albums of really good artists. They encapsulate the band’s sound, the ideas they had, the gear they used... and in most cases they move on, new sound new ideas.

 

There in lies a hidden problem of being consumed with the pursuit perfection. We don’t really move on to new ideas. We have less fresh pallets to start new projects, and more projects where we just mix a new shade of color. Idea progress is less of the big splash impact of a heap of new ideas, and more of a slow drip process, causing a few ripples.

 

So while it is important that we keep creating, it is always worth remembering that pursuing that perfect version of a song slows our progress. We can learn from this song to do a better new song.

 

That aside, perspective makes the change. To let time pass and accumulate new skills, new perspectives and then revisit an existing track, gives us far more scope for more radical change instead of incremental evolution.

 

In entrepreneurial circles there is an approach about failing fast. Try ideas, learn, move on. Keep what works discard what doesn’t.it works for music composition, production and music marketing.

[john]

6 hours ago, VoiceEx said:

focus

 

Oh a reply of that sort. Ok. Actually I didn't really express having a difficulty. I`m relatively satisfied with my progress (as someone that works alone), considering an average song of mine has around 20+ instruments. So.. but yeah sure i`m up for a chat. Well since you mentioned it, id say that lack of free time is the only real issue that bothers me. Apart from my job (which is very demanding), I have many everyday responsibilities that always get in the way. Though since you decided to mention the topic of envy for some reason, then you should know that if I had thought that the grass is greener in someone else's shoes, I would not have gone into making music.

 

 

Oh I delete stuff all the time. That`s why I have various presents for when I do feel like keeping something, or even if I have to start from scratch (over a project).

 

 

As I mentioned earlier, I believe that perfection is an impossibility. I would not search for that which doesn't exist. Though if I feel like a song is finished enough, I usually just go to the next one in the line. As for deadlines, that is for musicians that make a living off of their music, and activity promote themselves. For me making music is mostly a hobby. At my age and where I am in life, that route is probably not viable. That is of course assuming I would want something like that.

 

 

I try to avoid drawing parallels between myself and others. But yeah those are good points and I agree. You sound like someone who is very involved in these things. Though I should tell you that I generally dislike sharing my songs online. I don't like having an audience all that much. Hell even opening a Soundcloud was something I had to be talked into. Things like public demand, approval, recondition, various opinions, meeting other peoples expectation, these things are not my forte. Though I will admit that if an opportunity presented itself somehow, I would have no problem making music for money. If the price would justify the time and effort, then yeah why not. Probably never gonna happen lol. But if it did, id prefer making something impersonal like a Soundtrack or something. "Just a job", as they say.

 

 

Actually one of my problems is having too many ideas lol. Having free time is the only problem that really bothers me. Though like I mentioned before, I do not seek perfection. One of the most important things a person should know about making music, is knowing when to stop. I`m still human though so if by some odd chance I do suspect that I may be overdoing something, then I usually ask my wife for her opinion. Sometimes I will also ask real life friends of mine. None of which are experts in music of course, but any person can tell you if they like something you did or if its too much.

 

 

I only keep what I feel works. Which is why if I am satisfied with something I made, I leave it be for the most part. Though I will admit that I have considered remaking an old album or two, or even remaking old recordings and ideas I saved back when tapes where a thing. God that was so long ago. The technology these days are something else.

A reply of of “that” sort? Hmm. You seem to have misunderstood. I can see why you might have. 
 

For clarity: The topic is about approaches to songwriting with the aim of discussing the observations, issues and solutions raised. My reply is in that vein. I did not mean you had a problem. You brought up some things that can be problems, however you describe how you capitalise on having so many ideas. You raised some excellent points and observations. You brought up some points on your working practice. However, having a lot of ideas is a double edged sword. Yet, you work with so many ideas in a way that it isn’t a problem for you. I quoted you because you brought up these points.

 

I have seen many writers struggle with too many ideas. One board member in particular, @Richard Tracey, struggled for a long time to finish anything... which in itself was a problem because he really wanted to finish tracks and very much wanted to release them. He would work on a track and in the process have many ideas and would switch to them and neglect the piece he had started working on and had actually wanted to progress.

 

He also wanted everything to be perfect. In Richard’s case he was the one who wanted to release his music and was highly frustrated. Once he had ways to move forward, it was like a dam breaking. He worked with so many ideas and yes, kept much better focus, while not wasting ideas.
 

I myself struggled with being a perfectionist. It took time to learn to harness the benefits of me looking for a high quality result but balance that with a need to move forwards.

 

You brought up how you view and deal with these aspects of songwriting. That was all I was doing. No criticism was implied VoiceEx.

[john]

1 hour ago, VoiceEx said:

Well yeah when you put it like that lol. This is the internet man. You know how it is. Its not biggie though. Now things are more clear.

Absolutely no problem  I should have been clearer in my original reply.  

[MikeRobinson]

Best advice, I think, is:  "keep 'em all!"

 

Always keep your phone handy, recording a "voice memo," every time you think you're "just noodling."  Whenever you come up with an idea that just sounds like a turkey – "cross it out, but don't erase it."  (Save a copy into a directory that you call "the Morgue File," and then(!) move on.  Never erase "the Morgue File.")

 

Creativity really does consist of three different steps:  "dreaming up," "choosing," and then, "refining."   There really was a reason why newspapers learned to "never throw away anything."  I by now have over a hundred "voice recordings" from my carefully backed-up phone, and many of them sound like the work of a very creative stranger.

[Cody]

On 9/10/2020 at 1:56 PM, MikeRobinson said:

Best advice, I think, is:  "keep 'em all!"

 

Always keep your phone handy, recording a "voice memo," every time you think you're "just noodling."  Whenever you come up with an idea that just sounds like a turkey – "cross it out, but don't erase it."  (Save a copy into a directory that you call "the Morgue File," and then(!) move on.  Never erase "the Morgue File.")

 

Creativity really does consist of three different steps:  "dreaming up," "choosing," and then, "refining."   There really was a reason why newspapers learned to "never throw away anything."  I by now have over a hundred "voice recordings" from my carefully backed-up phone, and many of them sound like the work of a very creative stranger.

I agree completely with all of that, but how often do you actually make better any of those strangers recrodings?

[Anaezia]

Hey, I am also in the same boat as you. For me sometimes the melody strikes in my head and I repeat it over and over again and start writing or some random lines pop in my head and I try to make it into a song. But I also get stuck at some point so I start another one. And go back to the previous one to see if something strikes me. So my suggestion would be if you feel stuck then start another one and go back to previous one and let the words flow out Naturally I guess.