Do you think the 'role' of a musician in society has changed?

[Mahesh]

If so, how?

 

 

I recently finished watching a docuseries on Netflix called "Remastered" which was essentially a whole bunch of powerful stories relating to musicians around the world and how it changed society. Robert Johnson, Johnny Cash, Miami Showband, Victor Jara and more - it was absolutely enlightening to see the journey of music and sound over the past hundred years. Music or its musicians then had a strong influence over society's ways and its patterns. It has paved way for civil rights reform to ending of wars to unification of tribals (among others).

 

Do you think that happens even now? Do people take the POV of an artist as much as they did Bob Dylan's or Bob Marley's?  Do musicians write songs about stuff like this anymore to even have an impact on society's way of living? What do you think?

 

BTW The term 'role' is just used as a concession to no better word I could think of. lol By 'role', I simply mean whatever position that a musician has in the grand scheme of society.

 

Anyways, looking forward to your thoughts on this!

[john]

Well, yes. It’s a largely self-inflicted change. Once upon a time musicians provided social commentary. They were part of the mechanism for the conscience of society.

 

Somewhere along the road too many musicians increasingly fell in love with dreams of stardom, and chasing fame became an all consuming role. Songs stopped being about something of substance, preferring to be about vain issues, good times, the pursuit of happiness. Musicians became focused on personal gain, and the bigger labels ruled the roost, persuading musicians to accept less and less in return, to the extent that musicians were paying to play in every way. They also persuaded musicians to avoid serious topics and not to say anything controversial. A section of musicians took hold of the idea that music should be given away for free. For whatever reason they set a benchmark that music wasn’t worth anything. Unlike any other skill, even musicians were finding music had to be given away for free. People want music, they just want to have it for free. It’s hardly surprising. If musicians don’t put any value on music, how can we expect others to place value on it? If musicians don’t value their skills or their time, how can others? If we have no sense of self-worth, is it a surprise that we can be treated as worthless?

 

Musicians now? They are limited entertainers with nothing of consequence to say. Pretty sad really.

[Mahesh]

9 hours ago, john said:

Musicians now? They are limited entertainers with nothing of consequence to say. Pretty sad really.

 

Tell me about it John. Sigh It sure does feel like it a lot of the times.

 

3 hours ago, Patchez said:

-- So, maybe not just a "musicians" story... just a life story of how "people", are, or see their own roles when all is well like on Netflix, Amazon Prime, et alia... 

 

 

Well, you're right about that patchez! It's a people problem.

 

Like for example, I truly understand that there are some young people who get adversely affected and misguided by watching things on Netflix and Amazon Prime or whatever. But being a 28 year old (and a former .NET Developer and computer engineer), I have seen as commonly a lot of the older folk crapping on technology whether it be social media, the advent of phones or Netflix and the likes on how its either 'wrong' or sometimes 'dangerous' or outright fake news and lies. And again, that should come as no surprise.  I think regardless of who it is, it's important to be able to see things in a level headed manner and yes, self checking the facts do help from legit sources and historical data!

 

After watching any documentary, I always tend to go through the wikipedia page to read and find out more about it just out of curiosity and it sure is an enlightening time spent finding out more. And yeah, it feels like the pub grind will never change and the money it pays. lol I've been there.(I mean - here! lol ) But anyways, yes, it is a powerful thing to see human influence on society coming in the form of either a musician or their melodies. Even if it means it happens after they pass away. Cos it's quite amusing to me that sound and the arrangement of it is so powerful (okay, let's use 'persistent').

 

Anyways all interesting insights fellas!

 

Btw, speaking for where I'm from  and seeing recent times elsewhere, I'm indeed glad that guns are mostly illegal here! Metaphorically and literally a bullet dodged!

[Mahesh]

2 hours ago, Patchez said:

With all due respect, but to be brief, I get what you say, think and feel, I do and from where it may be derived, for as far as I may know; however, "down the road", you'll see it as I do, possibly... who knows... pays to be prepared. Anyway,  
  -- "that's all a load of crap". 

 

You know, I totally get where you're coming from. As much as I hope not, I can't deny there's a probability of me feeling the same way later in my years! Having done this indie musician thing for a decade now, it's been no sweet road to lalaland. And I wouldn't be surprised if these legendary musicians felt the same way after spending their whole life on it. (let alone us folk)

 

Heh and yet for some reason, we tend to obsess over words and melodies. How beautiful!

 

 

[James Anderson]

this  coved   thing  aint   going  to  help  a  role  for  any  body  in  life   while  this  is  a   computer  site  for  muscians  it  is   a good  way  to  bring    people  of  like   minds  different  tallents   and  points  of  views   together  in  a  friendly  way  .it  does   seam   every  body  has  become  so   busy  just  to survive  the  human   element  in   life  has  kind  of  evaperated  this  can  only   change    if  humans  change  .at the  end  of  the  day  seeing  some  one  playing   live is  something  youll  never  forget

[Peggy]

Just thinking that I see a lot of artists/musicians that do associate with causes (maybe even being encouraged to choose a cause for exposure) but that cause, is not always reflected in, or sometimes may even seem counter to, the music that they create and perform.  When they do connect, I think artist/musicians can move the needle.

[Cody]

Great topic I really enjoyed the read!  I don't feel anything has really changed so much, it's just there's more of us, we're more easily connected for good or bad.  I mean how different might history of been if every thing anyone in the past spoke out loud was memorialized for all-time and not just heard by the people in the room?  

 

Woody Guthrie for instance, originally from my area, he wasn't an outlier really in any way other than the fact he ran off to California , track down his original lyrics to This land is your land, sometime(has been rewritten and romanticized so much it lost its true meaning) It was a income and racial inequality protest song about the hypocrisy of America during and pre-WWII,  touting a whole lot of socialist ideals........quite the different take than history has had on it hahah

 

history will never know of the hundreds just like him that stayed in the fields and on the back porches.  Same with @Patchez B.B. King example........... can do that with anyone Bob Marley, Jimi Hendrix, Bob Dylan, etc...........

 

7 hours ago, fasstrack said:

To me that's a powerful enough change agent, and the only one I believe in---for myself. All that other stuff is beyond my pay grade...

 

 

Have to agree with that!

 

 

22 hours ago, john said:

Somewhere along the road too many musicians increasingly fell in love with dreams of stardom, and chasing fame became an all consuming role. Songs stopped being about something of substance,

 

That watered down a lot of what anyone had to say as well........ the whole groupthink popular thing to say also became a way to get cheap/easy fans........made "political" or "social commentary" musicians out of people who had no business being so, really not knowing or caring what they were talking about anyway.  That I'm afraid is a huge trend I see repeating itself in the US today, much like it did during the late 60s early 70s with Civil Rights/Vietnam war, etc......    

 

 

 

  

[Mahesh]

On 9/22/2020 at 7:28 PM, Patchez said:

 

Yes, with time  comes wisdom, not degradation.

 

Indeed, yes.

 

It's good to realize this as early as possible. 

Again, I am unclear what this has to do with the OP thesis. 

I am glad to engage what I think and why if that's what you care to do, -- well as time permits; and I don't have that much for "this". 

I am here every day commenting, but in/out fairly quick, or how I see it. 

 

 

Well, you responded to my topic mentioning at a later point, I may feel as you do, that it's a load of crap. 

 

I merely acknowledged where you're coming from and said as an indie musician, I struggle and hustle away doing this full time. And I was thinking out loud while observing the industry, it maybe be no surprise that these legendary musicians struggled too. Till the end. 

 

And that's why I feel there's a probability that I may think in the same way that you do despite feeling another way now. 

 

It's an interesting conversation and I was engaging it

 

Thank you for your time in doing the same. 👍

[Mahesh]

9 hours ago, Cody said:

the whole groupthink popular thing to say also became a way to get cheap/easy fans

 

How true. It is not just music but a familiar formula used all over including in political ideologies and even religion. It sure is a crazy time to live in. You're right Cody. I'm sure all of this would have been around before as well and the advent of tech and internet and connectivity and all that is merely amplifying it!

 

All of this is great insight. Right before I released my EP "Accept" and as part of it, I collaborated with Sofar Sounds to tour across India playing gigs in rooms. Additionally (and during), we spent about 15 days on the road along with a film crew to find out more about why grassroot movements like Sofar Sounds or anything else for that matter exist. (Documentary currently in post production)

 

We wanted to find out why, in their words, someone would choose to be involved in a hustle of a life for an obsession over words and melodies. We spoke to people around the country -  musicians, fans, producers, studio owners, graphic artists, organizers, managers and more. And everyone had their own reasons and point of view.

 

With such a diverse pallet of opinions and 'logic', it is indeed quite an astonishing relationship that sound/music has with humans and their behavior. Sure, a lot of things get construed along the way and with time. But the idea that humans do get influenced by music so much (even today!) is an observation that I find valuable. I see that if such an influence, whether good or bad, already exists. Then there is freedom and option for somebody to redirect that influence to things that they believe in.

 

 

It'd also be interesting to find out more about what's relevant to the question from before 1900s too. I wonder what influence(let's say relevance) music had 200 years ago or 600. Here I am thinking out loud again. Wikipedia time.

[MikeRobinson]

When we think about "the good ol' days" of music and vinyl records and all that, did any of us while poring through the record stores seriously ponder the many hundreds of records that we passed over without a listen?  For every one musician who "made it big," there were thousands who went bankrupt.  Tons and tons of vinyl and cardboard just got shredded and thrown away, unsold.  The artists had been forced to sign contracts that literally left them in debt to their labels for costs that would never be recouped.

 

Today, we live in a world where "music" is a still-commercially-viable product which has zero "cost of goods sold."  You can produce your material using software – available for a couple hundred bucks or even for free – and musical equipment the likes of which couldn't be had, at all, twenty years ago.  Maybe even ten.  And you can put it out to a world-wide audience for nothing and get feedback within hours or days.  If your work is technically good enough, there are many "pitch sites" which will get your music heard by the right people ... for free or for a nominal subscription.

 

So, "don't stop believing," and don't stop producing whatever you want to make.  Since there are no "costs," any money that you manage to make is 100% profit.  And if you don't care to make money with your music (yet ...), that's okay too.   The bottom line is that we all find ourselves today smack-dab in the middle of a technological wonderland that could not have been dreamed of just a few short years ago ... and the end is not in sight.

 

So, yes:  "the role of the musician in society" has indeed changed, because the interface between musicians and society is nothing like it used to be.  It's now stuffed with opportunity.

[Cody]

3 hours ago, Mahesh said:

It'd also be interesting to find out more about what's relevant to the question from before 1900s too. I wonder what influence(let's say relevance) music had 200 years ago or 600. Here I am thinking out loud again. Wikipedia time.

 

Something I've always been interested in as well.  I mean yeah we still know of some ballads from long back passed down orally, and then there's the stuff that's supposedly "music theory", or the "The Harmonic style of 18th Century European Musicians" which is a wayyyyyyyyy better term for it hahah  

 

It was originally called Music Theory is racist........he said he thought that was too click baity and just made people flame comment without even watching it, which apparently they're still doing anyway hahaha especially the people who have advanced degrees in such nonsense hahah ...................it's a long video, but well worth it!!!!    

 

But that's like taking a JayZ song or Justin Beiber song, for lack of any better understanding of who is popular right now hahah, and thinking in 2-300 years..........well that's the only music that was made then, and this is how it all was..........what were the "people" making and actually listening to, not the people that could afford fancy parties and fancy orchestras as in Beethoven/Bach time.   

[Cody]

1 hour ago, MikeRobinson said:

When we think about "the good ol' days" of music and vinyl records and all that, did any of us while poring through the record stores seriously ponder the many hundreds of records that we passed over without a listen?  For every one musician who "made it big," there were thousands who went bankrupt.  Tons and tons of vinyl and cardboard just got shredded and thrown away, unsold.  The artists had been forced to sign contracts that literally left them in debt to their labels for costs that would never be recouped.

Nope, was always a thought, but I always browsed the thrift stores and searched for the stuff I'd never heard of that had great album art  

but my rose colored nostalgia glasses or "good old days" are tinted by the 90's 

 

Hip hop finally getting some respect and attention, The decline of major labels having control of who gets to listen to what with the rise of the Indie label, etc....  The internet becoming accessible to more people and being able to hear music from around the world and other cultures and stuff you would of never had access to.   

[Cody]

31 minutes ago, fasstrack said:

Now, to get back to your point (with a thud and an anvil) could you get more into the 'racist' piece? Not sure I got it... 

 

Oh I absolutely can't It's why I posted the video, and not about to make a whole thread of the ordeal hahaha,  he does a great job of it in that 45minutes hahah I'm sure he'd love to discuss it in the Youtube comments though  Have fun with that.  I'll blame @Mahesh he got me thinking about music from hundreds of years ago and the influence, or not, it may of had hahaha.  

 

General idea of that video is "music theory" as a term is pretty blatantly racist.........I mean read the works of the "mostly German" guys who supposedly said this is what is and always will be forever and the end of time because of our massive superior intellect and genetics  

 

So "music theory" is really "The Harmonic Stylings of 18th Century European Musicians" brought to you by a few select individuals.  If you got 45 minutes, watch the video! it's great, and you'd probably like it, guy is a young jazz bassist mostly, and really knows his stuff, and there's some great interviews in it and such.  

[Cody]

3 hours ago, fasstrack said:

...And, folks, once again Africa and its cultural contributions get a swift kick in the ass.

 

No, scratch that, once again said contributions are ignored. Some thieves have all the luck (;

 

That was the first video I have ever watched that actually made me want to learn and study any theory other than just whatever I happen to pick up along the way and experiment with.............I was so jaded by that Shekner(sp)? crap as a child, would seriously get knuckles rapped for playing anything on the piano not exactly by the book, and not a good boogie-woogie or jazz book either   .........I pretty well just ignored everything else as the same waste of time for what I wanted to do, was intrigued and have actually been reading up a bit on that diminished 6th scale stuff, I'm sure you're versed in, it's some stuff I already do, but I sure took the long way around   A lot of the Indian scales I don't want to butcher the actual names, actually make wayyy more sense to me too, especially playing a lot of slide guitar, and a lot of the Russian theory that has different styles of playing integrated as integral parts.  not just staccato here written out  

 

 

 

But yeah this was about musicians and change or lack thereof in societal roles right?   sorry

 

3 hours ago, fasstrack said:

It's just that it raises an interesting question: do songwriters (I mean 'wordsmiths', not 'tunesmiths' writing instrumentals) sometimes purposely manipulate people? Do they sometimes write, and 'telegraph' to get a specific reaction? If so, is that an ego trip or mind game?

 

Or do people read their own experiences in, the songs being tabula rasa?

 

Or, option 3, are there self-proclaimed eggheads making false assumptions about songs to prove to themselves how damn 'smart' they are?

 

Personally, I think it's a bit of all 3 and could also lead to the decline in why so few artists are actually even taken seriously anymore, most people aren't dummies and know when they're being manipulated for a profit and the proliferation of that has jaded casual listeners of music and even fanbases.  Might of always been the case, I've really only been paying attention to anything like that since early 90's. 

 

and might even be another factor contributing to @john's point about the everyone expecting music for free now too that I agree with. 

[Mahesh]

6 hours ago, fasstrack said:

Please do forgive me for taking a little piece of your post out of context. It's just that it raises an interesting question: do songwriters (I mean 'wordsmiths', not 'tunesmiths' writing instrumentals) sometimes purposely manipulate people? Do they sometimes write, and 'telegraph' to get a specific reaction?

 

 

Speaking for myself, I think it depends on what you mean by 'manipulate' people. Ofcourse there will be a lot of people out there who fit the outright description of your question cuz such is the world; but if you're writing a song about something that you really care for and want to build an awareness of it through your words, sure! That's one way of expecting a reaction.

 

 

6 hours ago, fasstrack said:

is that an ego trip or mind game?

 

I see ego trip and 'mind game' as two different things.

 

Based on where I'm from and the latin origination of the word itself, ego is to grasp the sense of 'I'. To think much of yourself and to conduct things in aid to that. And that shows up in all kinds of things! If I'm writing a song to get a specific reaction for/about myself, what people think about me, how this song can earn me the right money or fans etc, then I must admit so that it'd be coming from a place of ego. As mentioned earlier, it's intent of the action we're talking about here.

 

On the other hand, if for example, you've an almost dictator ruling your country, divides us along religion, stays quiet to the corruption in his own party, has never done a press conference in his two terms being the leader and has ruined our way of living, it's not me anymore. I want a reaction, yes, but it's more to the way things are, not for myself. In times when journalists and activists are being imprisoned here (if not murdered) for using their power of dissent, I am empowered to use my barely surviving right to freedom of expression to contribute in some miniscule way for collective change, even if thru mere courage of presenting it to the world. 

 

Though I must say as an observation that when I am in the middle of writing a song, I am not thinking of the reaction I'm expecting from an audience, even if in someway I hope for it to have an impact. As people say, the songs write themselves, you're just a vessel for it. Though I do not have the capability (or do I want) to write songs just based on what the reaction needs to be, I may be motivated to write something that as a piece of art, expects a reaction of some form.

 

 

As for the mind game, well, I believe everything is. (I'll need to try quite a bit to leave spirituality out of this to prove my case)

 

Whether it be marketing and advertising to attract customers, entertainment and hospitality for retaining their bases, even personal relationships to keep things together - it feels like it's a way for two or more minds to interact while inadvertently or not, trying to change the way one thinks. Could be to buy products, go to gigs or listen to something, making them want to like you. So I see it as a broad term that finds its place in all parts of our life if we merely go by the meaning of the term. So that's a tricky one to work with.

 

 

 

[Mahesh]

Just now, Mahesh said:

Please do forgive me for taking a little piece of your post out of context.

 

Oh please, I'm happy to be having such an interesting conversation! Thank you for joining in!

[Mahesh]

5 minutes ago, fasstrack said:

Good answers. I'll have something to add when not half-shot.

 

For now, um, don't let the bedbugs bite. Waaay past my bedtime. (Ouch!, you goddamn bedbug, I ain't through with you yet, you ^&*(()&*)...

 

LOL Sleep well bud! I'm just about to get to the day's work at 11:30 in the morning.

[Mahesh]

17 hours ago, Patchez said:

Yes, with time  comes wisdom, not degradation.

 

In relation to my previous post and observing the current political nature of the world, I don't think that's always the case. 

 

I for one can't wait to vote out the backward thinking mindset that plagues this country and ignores fact, truth, empathy, logic or even a sensible way to debate things all for some evil agenda. (oh the number of times I've had this conversation with my parents and fam!) 

 

But anyways, my point is not about politics despite it being the biggest loudest example of my stand point on what you said. Respectfully so, it's about the "people" problem that you brought up in your earlier post. A lot of the ways I think and handle myself as a musician and in life has been influenced over a decade by my mentor and close friend, @john. He claims he's 22 but do not believe him! 😉 So it can be one way or the other, even from my own experience. 

 

 

And it goes to show that regardless of time, not all men and women are like wine to age well. The experiences spent over time and the cultural and sociological conditioning (and ofc I include myself in this) decides whether wisdom or degradation comes into play. 

 

FYI, we went from talking about music to the nature of society. I'm hoping that's relevant enough to this hearty conversation on this topic. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[john]

@mahesh, everyone’s a comedian lol

 

Musicians are like everybody. They have an opinion. The trouble is, some use their  celebrity to then lecture others. For me, that is the issue. By all means express opinions via song, but it becomes something else when they are public speaking. Don’t get me wrong. If they are on a chat show and asked a direct question? A simple answer works. But there is a huge difference between expression opinion within an art piece of any kind, and ramming it down your throat from a lectern. One demands skill and nuance. The other only needs a soapbox.

 

There I think is the root of the problem. The difference between being known as an artist, and relying upon celebrity as an excuse for whatever behaviour.

 

Artists can of course support campaigns etc, but the minute they err into being an active advocate is where the problems start. If they want to highlight issues, do it artistically through their music.

 

 

[Mahesh]

45 minutes ago, john said:

Artists can of course support campaigns etc, but the minute they err into being an active advocate is where the problems start

 

That's beautifully put. This is exactly why the topic of rather the role of a 'musician' in society. And not a musician who is more an advert for a political campaign or political agenda.

 

A good example of this could be the Johnny Cash incident at the White House when Nixon invited him to perform certain songs and how it unfolded. It seemed clear that Johnny had clashes with the policies and he choose to 'confront' it with music and song instead of something else.

 

45 minutes ago, john said:

One demands skill and nuance. The other only needs a soapbox.

 

You can say that again! LMAO