The Future

[Clay Anderson Johnson]

What do you believe to be the future of Music as far as its direction?

 

I believe the most widespread musical community will be based upon rhythms from the Caribbean, South America, and Africa. It is joyful music that lifts people during oppressive times.

 

The combination of new melodies with these rhythms is a way forward from genres which have grown stale from overuse and from too much similarity of content within themselves. As Carlos Santana observed, "Everything else has lost its candy coating."

 

It would also be a more cohesive whole rather than the fragmentation of the marketplace which has only grown worse since the 1990s.

Edited October 17, 2021 by Clay Anderson Johnson

[Clay Anderson Johnson]

@Popthree Try approaching the question from this perspective. "What are the trends you foresee in the stylistic and presentational progression in the market for commercial Music?"

 

Music moves along multiple paths rather than a singular one. However some genres are always more dominant than others due to demand by the audience.

 

How do you see audience demand changing due to the overexposure to near static formulas in presentation which only have changed minutely in decades?

 

 

Edited October 18, 2021 by Clay Anderson Johnson

[MikeRobinson]

"Play it, Sam ..."

 

That immortal single line, from the immortal movie Casablanca, really says it all to me.  Because, as a musician, somewhere out there, "there is your audience."  And, "this is what (s)he is saying to you."

 

But – the connection between the two of you, whenever and however it miraculously happens, is a moment, not any genre.  "There is no formula."  Therefore, do not look for one.

 

Clay, I look forward to your offerings "based upon rhythms from the Caribbean, South America, and Africa."  Please "lift me from my personal 'oppressive times.'"  And, please do so in your(!) very personal way.

 

However – as you do so, "do not judge your fellows, because you do not need to."  Do not judge "the marketplace."  Simply prepare your product and trust that 'the market' will surely find it.  Specifically including me.

Edited October 19, 2021 by MikeRobinson

[Steve Mueske]

6 hours ago, Clay Anderson Johnson said:

@Popthree Try approaching the question from this perspective. "What are the trends you foresee in the stylistic and presentational progression in the market for commercial Music?"

 

Music moves along multiple paths rather than a singular one. However some genres are always more dominant than others due to demand by the audience.

 

How do you see audience demand changing due to the overexposure to near static formulas in presentation which only have changed minutely in decades?

 

 

 

Forgive me for saying this, but I don't believe that for a second. There is so much variety and choice (Spotify, Tidal, YouTube, Xirius, Pandora, Bandcamp, iHeartRadio, etc.) I believe that your idea excites you, and if that is the case, I hope it motivates you to follow your passion. If anything music will continue to diversify. People seem to gravitate toward simplicity, and the primary genres for that are pop and country with I IV V chord progressions. I honestly don't see that changing any time soon.

[Clay Anderson Johnson]

11 hours ago, VoiceEx said:

 

"The only real interesting changes I foresee, will be related to technology and platform integration. Both audience and musicians alike, will respond to that".

 

Just as a friendly nudge. Conducting a respectful and constructive debate during live demonstrations is also a part of academic practice @Clay Anderson Johnson 👍

I would never wish to be less than respectful to anyone. I don't disagree except for your use of the word "only". Also audiences and musicians have no choice other than to respond to it.

[Clay Anderson Johnson]

13 hours ago, Steve Mueske said:

 

Forgive me for saying this, but I don't believe that for a second. There is so much variety and choice (Spotify, Tidal, YouTube, Xirius, Pandora, Bandcamp, iHeartRadio, etc.) I believe that your idea excites you, and if that is the case, I hope it motivates you to follow your passion. If anything music will continue to diversify. People seem to gravitate toward simplicity, and the primary genres for that are pop and country with I IV V chord progressions. I honestly don't see that changing any time soon.

I don't disagree with your statement about simplicity and the I IV V progression. As Woody Guthrie noted, "Any damn fool can be complex. The hard part is keeping it simple."

 

I do disagree with the conflation of technology and platforms such as Spotify, Tidal, YouTube, Xirius, Pandora, Bandcamp, iHeartRadio, etc. as variety and choice in presentation. I was speaking of the format of the presentation by the artist not the distribution of it. It is the content of the genres which need to evolve.

 

I believe the Rock, Pop, and Country genres have grown incredibly boring and withering from lack of fresh ideas. One of the main reasons Country is more than boring is the rhythms are not sexy. (I am a member of AFM Local #257 Nashville.) If you combine many Country lyrics and an artist whose concept of presentation is not stand like a statue and strum with rhythmically danceable music other than Two Step, etc. you have leapt a mile artistically.

 

The question then becomes will the audience continue to follow only what is familiar or will younger minds look for something more original? The United States is becoming more racially mixed, especially more Latino. I foresee Latin rhythms becoming more prominent.

Edited October 19, 2021 by Clay Anderson Johnson

[Clay Anderson Johnson]

14 hours ago, MikeRobinson said:

"Play it, Sam ..."

 

That immortal single line, from the immortal movie Casablanca, really says it all to me.  Because, as a musician, somewhere out there, "there is your audience."  And, "this is what (s)he is saying to you."

 

But – the connection between the two of you, whenever and however it miraculously happens, is a moment, not any genre.  "There is no formula."  Therefore, do not look for one.

 

Clay, I look forward to your offerings "based upon rhythms from the Caribbean, South America, and Africa."  Please "lift me from my personal 'oppressive times.'"  And, please do so in your(!) very personal way.

 

However – as you do so, "do not judge your fellows, because you do not need to."  Do not judge "the marketplace."  Simply prepare your product and trust that 'the market' will surely find it.  Specifically including me.

The marketplace is not my fellow musicians and the audience is only one portion of it. The other portion is global capitalism. My observations of it are simply that not judgements.

 

I would not call this track joyful. It is intentionally dark and evocative of primitivism as it was written for a specific project. This is Primordial.

https://music.apple.com/us/album/primordial-single/1587416680?uo=4&app=apple+music

[Clay Anderson Johnson]

15 hours ago, VoiceEx said:

You are educated in music. Well done my friend! well, i`m no Nostradamus, but I tend to believe that the audience will continue being spoon fed different variants of the same Placebos, only on steroids. I often joke about this subject by saying that in times of war, the industry is akin to carefree kid that`s blasting music at 4 a.m, and that the audience plays the role of the angry neighbor that`s complaining about them. There is only one outcome to that scenario - the music will get louder, and the kid may or may play several different songs at once.

 

That`s my way of saying that the only real interesting changes I foresee, will be related to technology and platform integration. Both audience and musicians alike, will respond to that. Indie is the wave of the future.

Indie is truly the wave of the future as the Internet broke the stranglehold of the recording industry. I believe this will lead to more music producing more money for more musicians.

 

The flip side is the corporate world will do everything possible to ensure its survival. The most likely result will be more lowest common denominator content with heavy financial backing. Bill Maher once observed, "The quality of the music is in inverse proportion to the number of dancers onstage."

[Peggy]

53 minutes ago, Clay Anderson Johnson said:

"The quality of the music is in inverse proportion to the number of dancers onstage."

I'm sure there are exceptions, but oh that's a great observation.

 

[Steve Mueske]

1 hour ago, Popthree said:

the whole 'future of music is...' mindset doesn't jive with me very well. Music goes all directions, all the time, and it always has. @Clay Anderson Johnson predicts a move to African and South American beats... ok... well that's already been done.  a bunch.  for years.  so it's not really the future, its the past... if someone is integrating it again now it's just the past revisited.  much like the resurgence in popularity of rockabilly or even ballroom music.  remember when the Clash nearly abandoned punk rock for Reggae?  

 

what will the masses consume?  whatever is marketed and served up to them on a silver platter.  the top 40 audience might as well be batteries in the matrix.  that's why i don't embrace 'popular' music much. its off putting to me.  i want to be different. i enjoy seeking out the 'unpopular' quality that exists.  i desire to listen to less known artists who are into actually writing songs with thought provoking lyrical content, presented in ways that defy top 40 goals. people like john prine (rip) jay farrar, jeff tweedy, neil young, and many more.   i love listening to jazz guitar greats like bill frisell or nels cline.  these 2 are far opposites in their approach to the instrument and music but they are both amazing players, artists and humans.

 

my eldest daughter was in college about 6 years ago.  she went to UNM - university of New Mexico.  they had the most unusual little niche music scene in that town.  all these hippee/punk/granola kids started bands with instrumentation like banjo, washboard, washtub bass and other oddball instruments.. also more conventional stuff like guitar, of course.  gang vocals, harmonies, lots of shouting and angst.. very punk rock, but unplugged.  things are happening, everywhere.

 

 

Exactly, which is why I tried to articulate my objection. If anything more and more choices will continue to emerge. Whatever happens happens. I don't have a lot of confidence in the marketplace because people won't buy unless they're motivated to do so (why spend money on art when you can subscribe to a service and get whatever you want). For most, it's just another form of entertainment, one that competes with TV and porn. It doesn't have a deeper intrinsic value until (or unless) people are made to understand its intrinsic artistic value. Like anything else, the market itself dictates what happens. Independent music is easier to produce and make available, but it's still a problem of awareness. I don't see this changing any time soon.

Edited October 19, 2021 by Steve Mueske

[Steve Mueske]

My older daughter is very involved in the indie queer scene in LA. I KNOW she will be more successful than I ever have been or will be. Within three days of releasing their first single, they had 30k followers just through word of mouth. Being plugged in matters, community matters. I am so excited for her (and also a little jealous, of course, LOL!). She has a wild and fierce spirit and is one of my favorite singers in the world.

Edited October 19, 2021 by Steve Mueske

[Clay Anderson Johnson]

1 minute ago, Steve Mueske said:

My older daughter is very involved in the indie queer scene in LA. I KNOW she will be more successful than I ever have been or will be. Within three days of releasing their first single, they had 30k followers just through word of mouth. Being plugged in matters, community matters. I am so excited for her (and also a little jealous). She has a wild and fierce spirit and is one of my favorite singers in the world.

That's Great! I'm happy for both you and her.

 

There is more than enough success to go around. I don't see life is a zero sum game where someone has to lose for another to win. Everyone benefits from sharing community.

[john]

It’s a cyclic swallowing and regurgitation, an ever blending of styles. Pop is literally eating itself in ever smaller portions. The value of such musicians is already largely not in their music.

 

Trend wise, it’s technology lead. It always has been. We’re at the stage of AI written songs and music. That will continue the trend of making music creation accessible to the masses. The dumbing down of music will be completed by fame seekers pushing a button, completely devaluing music and musicians.

 

In time, that will come full circle as fans will start to increasingly crave real music, written and performed by real musicians on real instruments. Being famous for nothing in particular will pass as a trend and people will demand skill again…. And so we go for another time around the wheel.

 

I have always seen it as cyclic trends that fit within a cyclic overall trend, circles within circles.

[Clay Anderson Johnson]

5 hours ago, john said:

I have always seen it as cyclic trends that fit within a cyclic overall trend, circles within circles.

This is actually another way of stating my proposition. Everything returns once more to its roots with a new variation as "fans will start to increasingly crave real music".

 

The roots of everything usually come from indigenous peoples.

 

The primary source of rhythmic music is Africa. Those rhythms took root in America as the Blues which evolved into Jazz. Scotch-Irish ballads evolved into Country. 

 

However the sound of Rock came from the Industrial Age and factory machinery. Electronic music came from the rise in Technology. Pop can be traced back to the English music halls and Broadway.

 

Your insight of Technology becoming the nemesis of Art also aligns with my statement that is more a platform and method of production than a genre or variety in presentation.

[Glammerocity]

I recently found this great quote by Mark Twain: “There is no such thing as a new idea. It is impossible. We simply take a lot of old ideas and put them into a sort of mental kaleidoscope. We give them a turn and they make new and curious combinations.”

 

On 10/21/2021 at 10:05 AM, john said:

Trend wise, it’s technology lead. It always has been. We’re at the stage of AI written songs and music. That will continue the trend of making music creation accessible to the masses. The dumbing down of music will be completed by fame seekers pushing a button, completely devaluing music and musicians.

 

Kai Krausse was a musician who worked with early synths in the 70s. He worked on sound effects for a number of records and movies. In the 90s he ran a number of graphic software companies, such as MetaCreations, which was responsible for programs like Bryce, Infini D and Painter. He was once asked in an interview if software was becoming too push-button and making art too easy. He said he wanted to make software as easy to use as a pencil. "Everybody can use a pencil," he argued, "but there's only one Rembrandt."

 

Of course some might argue that art died with Rembrandt. Pth, those impressionists and their vagueness. That's not art, that's just throwing paint on a canvas and moving it around.

 

If AI is able to make music, then the algorithms it was programmed with are based on those we've all been using for our entire musical lives. I've often thought learning to be a musician is like learning to be a magician: there's no such thing as magic anymore, it's all a trick. They don't call it the "three-chord trick" for nothing. And who doesn't love those three chords? Play them on a Les Paul through a Marshall amp and it's as easy a selecting A1 on a synth. It just sounds great before you've done anything. Does it matter how a sausage is made if it looks like a sausage and tastes like a sausage? Sometimes I like a hand-cooked steak and sometimes I like a machine-made steakbake.

 

People argued that music was being dumbed down during the classic songwriting Tin Pan Alley era, when it was  referred to as shmaltz and the phrase "moon June spoon" was coined to dismiss its lyrical simplicity. There were accusations of dumbing down when Elvis arrived, then the Beatles and so on. Every generation seems to become its parents, dismissing anything new as not proper music, not like we listened to. My guess is everybody sets the limit of what's acceptable at exactly what they do. Nobody says, "My stuff is just derivative." We simply refer to it as "influenced by." I was influenced by the algorithms of Steve Van Zandt, who wrote great Motown-influenced 3-minute songs for Southside Johnny. At times it was almost formulaic.

 

I'd take issue with the term "fame seekers." We all started learning to make music for various reasons but very few didn't want to be known for it. Just as we did when we kicked a ball about in the street. I don't see anything wrong with that. Music isn't a league and there isn't any one thing which belongs at the top or in the relegation zone. Making music creation available to the masses is surely a good thing, like voting. It's democratisation.

 

I think the MP3 could be said to have devalued music, though personally I tend towards the "death of filler" argument. No longer could record companies package those tracks everybody skipped even on the most classic of albums and sell it as an artistic concept, complete with an airbrushed piece of artwork on the album cover to market it to us. And you know the band knew it, because they didn't spend nearly as much time and money on track 7 as they did on track 1.

 

I'd counsel against making predictions. Extensive research (though in politics, not music but it still fits, I think) by Philip Tetlock took 80,000 predictions from over 300 experts on various subjects - where would the next war be, which region would have economic growth, etc. The Nobel prize-winning economist and Tetlock's tutor, Daniel Kahneman, wrote that the experts did "worse than dart-throwing monkeys," which would have at least spread their choices over an average. He suggested that the problem was possibly that their expertise led them to believe they could make bolder choices than they should have. Trust a surgeon to remove your appendix but don't bet your house on his predictions for the NHS in the next 20 years.

Edited November 6, 2021 by Glammerocity

[john]

6 hours ago, Glammerocity said:

I recently found this great quote by Mark Twain: “There is no such thing as a new idea. It is impossible. We simply take a lot of old ideas and put them into a sort of mental kaleidoscope. We give them a turn and they make new and curious combinations.”

 

 

Kai Krausse was a musician who worked with early synths in the 70s. He worked on sound effects for a number of records and movies. In the 90s he ran a number of graphic software companies, such as MetaCreations, which was responsible for programs like Bryce, Infini D and Painter. He was once asked in an interview if software was becoming too push-button and making art too easy. He said he wanted to make software as easy to use as a pencil. "Everybody can use a pencil," he argued, "but there's only one Rembrandt."

 

Of course some might argue that art died with Rembrandt. Pth, those impressionists and their vagueness. That's not art, that's just throwing paint on a canvas and moving it around.

 

If AI is able to make music, then the algorithms it was programmed with are based on those we've all been using for our entire musical lives. I've often thought learning to be a musician is like learning to be a magician: there's no such thing as magic anymore, it's all a trick. They don't call it the "three-chord trick" for nothing. And who doesn't love those three chords? Play them on a Les Paul through a Marshall amp and it's as easy a selecting A1 on a synth. It just sounds great before you've done anything. Does it matter how a sausage is made if it looks like a sausage and tastes like a sausage? Sometimes I like a hand-cooked steak and sometimes I like a machine-made steakbake.

 

People argued that music was being dumbed down during the classic songwriting Tin Pan Alley era, when it was  referred to as shmaltz and the phrase "moon June spoon" was coined to dismiss its lyrical simplicity. There were accusations of dumbing down when Elvis arrived, then the Beatles and so on. Every generation seems to become its parents, dismissing anything new as not proper music, not like we listened to. My guess is everybody sets the limit of what's acceptable at exactly what they do. Nobody says, "My stuff is just derivative." We simply refer to it as "influenced by." I was influenced by the algorithms of Steve Van Zandt, who wrote great Motown-influenced 3-minute songs for Southside Johnny. At times it was almost formulaic.

 

I'd take issue with the term "fame seekers." We all started learning to make music for various reasons but very few didn't want to be known for it. Just as we did when we kicked a ball about in the street. I don't see anything wrong with that. Music isn't a league and there isn't any one thing which belongs at the top or in the relegation zone. Making music creation available to the masses is surely a good thing, like voting. It's democratisation.

 

I think the MP3 could be said to have devalued music, though personally I tend towards the "death of filler" argument. No longer could record companies package those tracks everybody skipped even on the most classic of albums and sell it as an artistic concept, complete with an airbrushed piece of artwork on the album cover to market it to us. And you know the band knew it, because they didn't spend nearly as much time and money on track 7 as they did on track 1.

 

I'd counsel against making predictions. Extensive research (though in politics, not music but it still fits, I think) by Philip Tetlock took 80,000 predictions from over 300 experts on various subjects - where would the next war be, which region would have economic growth, etc. The Nobel prize-winning economist and Tetlock's tutor, Daniel Kahneman, wrote that the experts did "worse than dart-throwing monkeys," which would have at least spread their choices over an average. He suggested that the problem was possibly that their expertise led them to believe they could make bolder choices than they should have. Trust a surgeon to remove your appendix but don't bet your house on his predictions for the NHS in the next 20 years.

its not so much prediction as it is already here. Microsoft threw a lot of money at ai based songwriting, and there already ai based mastering algorithms and mixing and effects algorithms. The requirement for musical knowledge is quickly evaporating, along with the need for muscle memory built on years of practice. The only thing faster than the trend for push button tools is the audience’s lack of ability to tell or appreciate the difference.

 

There will always be some who prefer real musicians and real songwriters. Just as there are still some who appreciate vinyl records. Sadly they are outstripped by those who appreciate vinyl records, but nowhere near enough for it to make a tiny bit of difference. That bunch are dwarfed by the number who just don’t give a toss.

 

There will always be people who enjoy making music the hard way, just as there will always be people looking to bypass all the hard work.

 

I tend to be more an equal opportunist. I’ll take advantage of tech or lose myself for hours in an old folk instrument. I enjoy the result, and although I like the journey, shortcuts can be appealing!

[Clay Anderson Johnson]

5 minutes ago, john said:

tend to be more an equal opportunist. I’ll take advantage of tech or lose myself for hours in an old folk instrument. I enjoy the result, and although I like the journey, shortcuts can be appealing!

 

Don't think of it as a shortcut. Envision it as a hybrid approach. Purists self-isolate.

 

There is no right or wrong in art although artlessness is possible which you eluded to earlier.