Will Music be destroyed by AI ?

[john]

6 hours ago, WanyaMoto said:

Wow, I'm impressed! Making a guitar chord detector using Jetson Nano is such a cool project!
I checked out the demo video, and even though you said it's not HQ, I could still see the potential. And thanks for sharing the source code and model on GitHub; I'll take a look.
By the way, if you're into exploring more unique instruments, have you ever considered creating the same for the bodhran? It's an Irish drum that creates an amazing rhythm. I saw some bodhrans for sale recently, and it got me intrigued about trying one out.

I have a bodhran. It can be a great acoustic instrument. Awesome for festivals. A couple of guitars, and a bodhran can do wonders. My friends and I took some instruments along to Glastonbury a long time ago. We played around campfires mostly, but the most memorable was climbing Glastonbury Tor about 11pm for a jam session. I took my guitar, bodhran and didgeridoo with me and had a great party!

 

AI could never replace that kind of experience. AI’s impact would largely be restricted to recorded music. The fact that it lacks any human component is a major limitation. Sure, novelty might drive it to the top of the charts for a while. I don’t think it will last. Like any fad. I think it will always be present now, but by degrees not a dominant feature once the fad passes.

[Mahesh]

On 8/8/2023 at 5:34 AM, john said:

AI’s impact would largely be restricted to recorded music.

 

Though AI may have certain impact on the music recording industry, I'm happy to see the topic on AI bring some much needed attention to the live music side of things. Too many artists out there who've got millions of streams on their Spotify or whatever and yet can't hold a tune properly on stage. Call me old fashioned, but a large part of my personal music journey is bound to having an everyday discipline to my craft and instrument, and the motivation to get better at it.  

[Jac]

yes its a topic that's being brought to attention of the music industry as these quotes from article written April 18th by the Independent.

 

The article went on to say, the band Blossom used AI to create their song called ' Your Girlfriend' They did it by feeding AI with their back catolog then selected the best part of the out put. The song was released in June 2019 and peaked  at 100 uk singles charts and no 59 on Scottish single charts.

Nick Cave was angry when a fan sent a AI chat version of song of his song.

 

 Here, Conal Kelly shares my sentiments....

singer songwriter Conal Kelly said' it's scary, the idea of a machine writing a song and l worry AI will dilute peoples music tastes to the extent it's either impossible to tell whats written by a machine vs human or the public will prefer AI songwriting.

 

The article went on' so the line between borrowing ( like Blossom) and mimicking (like Nick Cave) becomes increasingly blurred, re music industry faces a new problem- music laundering.

 

Edited August 9, 2023 by Jac

[Reid Gibson]

Yeah, just read this on Barron's. Google is not your friend. https://www.marketwatch.com/articles/google-alphabet-universal-music-ai-copyright-hollywood-8f087ec5?mod=mw_latestnews  

 

I agree with Mahesh totally. 

[Jac]

34 minutes ago, Reid Gibson said:

Yeah, just read this on Barron's. Google is not your friend. https://www.marketwatch.com/articles/google-alphabet-universal-music-ai-copyright-hollywood-8f087ec5?mod=mw_latestnews  

 

I agree with Mahesh totally. 

excately, that's my point. google did not promise to disclose the data  used to train their AI systems.

So some in the music profession ( and it's worrying others in the performing arts) that AI will 'scrap' together all the AI input from artists, put it altogether and make say ' a song' There is no law to stop AI companies doing this. So in other words, the Artists  years of hard work 'could' be used to make say the record label a song ( which could become a hit ) and there is no one to stop them, and the ones losing out are the millions of artist who put years of hard graft into their art.!

Along comes AI , it takes the best bits from millions of songwriters, puts it together, and what do you get, a massive hit song that was gleaned from human songwriters. And those songwriters it was gleaned from wont know there work was used by the AI companies, so wont see a penny in royalties !

Is that fair ?

[john]

10 hours ago, Jac said:

excately, that's my point. google did not promise to disclose the data  used to train their AI systems.

So some in the music profession ( and it's worrying others in the performing arts) that AI will 'scrap' together all the AI input from artists, put it altogether and make say ' a song' There is no law to stop AI companies doing this. So in other words, the Artists  years of hard work 'could' be used to make say the record label a song ( which could become a hit ) and there is no one to stop them, and the ones losing out are the millions of artist who put years of hard graft into their art.!

Along comes AI , it takes the best bits from millions of songwriters, puts it together, and what do you get, a massive hit song that was gleaned from human songwriters. And those songwriters it was gleaned from wont know there work was used by the AI companies, so wont see a penny in royalties !

Is that fair ?

Playing devil’s advocate here, is this greatly different to humans learning what to do by observing successful artists, and learning what not to do by observing unsuccessful artists? Or songwriters being inspired by their heroes and borrowing ideas from a bunch of writers to combine them in a new way?

[Mahesh]

17 hours ago, buckoff said:

I don't think kids or new artists usin AI care your old fashioned , Were not stopping new toys , if that was the case Henry Ford would never have got a Motel T off the assembly line.

 

Nor do I care much for their artistically unfulfilling ways of pursuing art - so I guess we don't have much of an overlap. I'm all for toys, don't get me wrong. I'm also for using new technology to further the idea of music or creative art. I'm just not for creative servants is all. It takes the fun out of things. 

[Jac]

7 hours ago, john said:

Playing devil’s advocate here, is this greatly different to humans learning what to do by observing successful artists, and learning what not to do by observing unsuccessful artists? Or songwriters being inspired by their heroes and borrowing ideas from a bunch of writers to combine them in a new way?

that's really interesting thoughts John, thank you.

An article written on Springboard Oct 2021 touched on that too.

 

 It mentions that we all know AI has a very long way to go, and says machines are still way beyond what human brains are capable of doing . it goes on 'we all know that AI cannot offer real human touch to our learning journey.'

So as a tool, is it the same as to inspire humans, be our mentor, have rational thinking, emotions, like other humans do....the article says it will never do that.

 

But l want to draw attention to what AI is doing now, in our period of time when it comes to the Performing Arts. And why it's  now worrying many that work in that industry.

As l touched on before, its being used now, a lot, in that industry, and its worrying the workforce,,a lot.

The Writers strike is also connected to the worry of AI taking a lot of work off human writers. l think they have grounds to worry. Same as l think songwriters have the same reason to worry.

 

Yes, its all in the future, so why worry now? But is it in the future ? 

l believe its happening now, and people cant see whats happening in the music industry.

 

so l go back to my question l brought up before.

 (and for others reading this l want to touch on that topic only please)

 

so my question is;

 

If  AI is using other songwriters work, to write a new song, and AI's song becomes a massive hit, who gets the money from it.?

Songwriters are saying there is no law, as yet, for their copyright protection. Songwriters are saying they have no protection, as yet, to their work.

 

[Steve Mueske]

I don't know if this has been posted or not because I've not followed everything in this thread, but here is Nick Cave's take, which I found very interesting.

 

A slightly different can of worms from music AI, but still relevant.

 

https://www.theredhandfiles.com/chatgpt-making-things-faster-and-easier/?fbclid=IwAR0PLctosaIK1DLtYN5fYq-irKF6Ccd7rSqQnqD85EuxZbSbPq63BOGMRA0

Edited August 11, 2023 by Steve Mueske

[VoiceEx]

On 8/9/2023 at 8:18 AM, Mahesh said:

Too many artists out there who've got millions of streams on their Spotify or whatever and yet can't hold a tune properly on stage. Call me old fashioned, but a large part of my personal music journey is bound to having an everyday discipline to my craft and instrument, and the motivation to get better at it.  

 

OMG thank you for saying that! This has been driving me nuts for years now! 😂🙏 Its like, I get that preforming is only an option. Especially if the artist is already bringing in enough dough without going on stage. However.. I think that coughing up songs in isolation is unhealthy for the mind, as it hinders a person's sense of perception.

 

To put that in perspective. A song can sound good when its neatly packaged in a controlled environment. It can also be sold that way. However, that does not necessarily mean that the song would work as a live performance. Which is something that musicians and producers with experience on stage would be able to tell right away.

 

I also have a bit of a hot take on these matters 😅 Do you know what I think that many of these musicians are lacking? Two words: Energy & presence. They lack raw power.

 

Oh sure, they sound good on record. But a huge part of any performance is.. the audience. And any musician that's been ever been on stage can attest that the audience gives them 'energy'. People don't go to live shows just because of the music - the audience wants to connect and feel something 'real', and they want to be entertained.

 

Music videos can't achieve the same effect. Streaming an isolated performance from home can't achieve the same effect. Both the audience's and musicians experience affect each other. Like many thing's in life, its a sort of relationship. And when a musician doesn't preform in front of, well, anyone, ever, then I think that they are always going to fall short in something. Could be in skills, could be in confidence, anything really.

 

Besides. If you ask me, call me old fashion, I prefer going to live shows over downloading songs 👍 And when a musician is only making music for money and views, it kinda shows. And it turns me off.

[Glammerocity]

  

On 8/9/2023 at 6:18 AM, Mahesh said:

Too many artists out there who've got millions of streams on their Spotify or whatever and yet can't hold a tune properly on stage. Call me old fashioned, but a large part of my personal music journey is bound to having an everyday discipline to my craft and instrument, and the motivation to get better at it.  

 

That's not isolated to this Spotify era. I always found Manchester bands during that whole Factory era wound me up, because I found it all so amateur. Stone Roses were critics' darlings, "seminal," they said of their album. I heard Ian Brown sing live; I'd call it shite but it didn't even make that level. A lot of processing going on with that seminal album and the precursors to autotune.

 

4 hours ago, VoiceEx said:

I think that coughing up songs in isolation is unhealthy for the mind, as it hinders a person's sense of perception.

I don't think coughing up songs in isolation is necessarily unhealthy. Quite the opposite: any form of expression has to be better than passively consuming. And aren't people who only go to gigs simply passively consuming? Speaking of unhealthy, too many gigs can damage your hearing. I've heard some baaaaad sound engineers, who've been doing it night after night at volume and their ears are shot. How often have you come out of a gig with your ears ringing?

 

4 hours ago, VoiceEx said:

Oh sure, they sound good on record. But a huge part of any performance is.. the audience. And any musician that's been ever been on stage can attest that the audience gives them 'energy'. People don't go to live shows just because of the music - the audience wants to connect and feel something 'real', and they want to be entertained.

 

The Beatles stopped playing live and it didn't do them any harm. Brian Wilson, well, he just couldn't cope. Mozart wasn't renowned for his gigs. But then those types don't come along very often. I did a lot of gigs, 2-5 a week for a good ten years without a break, and I loved it but it's not for everybody. It has its own frustrations. Usually other musicians. The number of times I tried to get new songs, which we'd rehearse, only for those who were being paid well from our work (£200 each a night on average), thinking they'd just busk it rather than practise at home. So when we tried a new song at the gig it would often be loose and I'd bin it, because I was at the front trying to sell it while their heads went down.

 

But that many gigs did give us a sort of telepathy which you can't buy or practise. I could take things somewhere and they'd follow. We had people who came to our residencies week after week. I once asked why and they said, "Because we never know what's going to happen."

 

4 hours ago, VoiceEx said:

Music videos can't achieve the same effect. Streaming an isolated performance from home can't achieve the same effect. Both the audience's and musicians experience affect each other. Like many thing's in life, its a sort of relationship. And when a musician doesn't preform in front of, well, anyone, ever, then I think that they are always going to fall short in something. Could be in skills, could be in confidence, anything really.

 

But isn't that like saying movies can't replicate the theatre? There's good and bad theatre as well as good and bad movies. But how often do live music fans go to the theatre instead of the movies?

 

4 hours ago, VoiceEx said:

And when a musician is only making music for money and views, it kinda shows. And it turns me off.

 

The pension tour is not something I endorse. Too many groups getting back together because the royalties dried up and so did their relevance. They were of their time and should move on to something new. God bless Paul Weller, a pox on Brian May and the drummer out of Queen.

Edited August 11, 2023 by Glammerocity

[VoiceEx]

On 8/11/2023 at 3:27 PM, Glammerocity said:

I don't think coughing up songs in isolation is necessarily unhealthy. Quite the opposite: any form of expression has to be better than passively consuming. And aren't people who only go to gigs simply passively consuming? Speaking of unhealthy, too many gigs can damage your hearing. I've heard some baaaaad sound engineers, who've been doing it night after night at volume and their ears are shot. How often have you come out of a gig with your ears ringing?

 

I wouldn't say "any" form of expression being as violence for example is also considered as a form of expression. Though I imagine you were referring to creative arts in particular 😅

 

When I said that I think producing songs in isolation is unhealthy, I meant for the musician. Not their sound crew or for their audience. That being said, while my opinion still remains the same, respectfully, you do make a very good point about how too many gigs can damage people's hearing. People who work in construction for example are also prone to such issues.

 

On 8/11/2023 at 3:27 PM, Glammerocity said:

The Beatles stopped playing live and it didn't do them any harm. Brian Wilson, well, he just couldn't cope. Mozart wasn't renowned for his gigs. But then those types don't come along very often. I did a lot of gigs, 2-5 a week for a good ten years without a break, and I loved it but it's not for everybody. It has its own frustrations. Usually other musicians. The number of times I tried to get new songs, which we'd rehearse, only for those who were being paid well from our work (£200 each a night on average), thinking they'd just busk it rather than practise at home. So when we tried a new song at the gig it would often be loose and I'd bin it, because I was at the front trying to sell it while their heads went down.

 

I was mostly talking about musicians that have established themselves online without ever preforming in front of a live audience. I will also point out that there is a stark difference between 'stopped' playing live, and between 'never' played live. The Beatles for example have preformed live many times before they stopped. As have you, from what it sounds. And if that is the case, then would it not be fair to say that a degree of experience and skill set can be gained from preforming live? That is what I was referring too.

 

On 8/11/2023 at 3:27 PM, Glammerocity said:

But that many gigs did give us a sort of telepathy which you can't buy or practise

 

As i've said 👍

 

On 8/11/2023 at 3:27 PM, Glammerocity said:

But isn't that like saying movies can't replicate the theatre? There's good and bad theatre as well as good and bad movies. But how often do live music fans go to the theatre instead of the movies?

 

I was referring to the benefits a musician can gain from interacting with the audience, which also includes the act of simply facing an audience on stage. For example, between both of the options I included (music videos and livestreams), you could say that preforming an isolated live stream is 'closer' to facing an audience, being as an audience might present during the stream. However, that's still not exactly the same experience as having the audience physically present.

 

As for drawing parallels from different various mediums of entertainment, I do agree that most people nowadays would prefer to go to the movies, over going to the theater. And on a similar vain, you could also say that nowadays many people choose to download music for free or listen to it for free, instead of purchasing the tracks/albums, or paying to see a live concert.

 

On 8/11/2023 at 3:27 PM, Glammerocity said:

The pension tour is not something I endorse. Too many groups getting back together because the royalties dried up and so did their relevance.

 

Now that is something we can both agree on 100%. Maybe someone slipped 'something' into their prune juice or something, in order to convince them that these tours are a "good" idea. Which its not. Its awful. They were much better off staying 'Has-beens', instead of making live shows seem like a funeral.

Edited August 13, 2023 by VoiceEx

[john]

I for one am actively writing and recording. That aside, I have always kept up to date with tech. It constantly evolves and if I come back after an absence I have to catch up. The same is true for music marketing. And changes in music law in different places.

 

TBH, I have no idea why you would want to stick your head in the sand, or stop caring, just because you are not writing in that moment.

[VoiceEx]

 Where exactly did I say that I was worried? 😅 If anything, I am disappointed and annoyed by having to wait until I can get my deus ex machina groove on! 💢

 

As for writing and recording songs. Since you brought it up, I actively work on producing new music material and new content practically every day. Its part of my job 👍 And while its true that I am not able to be as active as i'd like to be, it would be extremely presumptuous to assume that 'this' is what I do all day 🤣

[VoiceEx]

On 8/17/2023 at 1:34 AM, buckoff said:

I'm not worrying anything , Write it sing it promote it . its been intersting what big players do on AI , I'm not so why worry on billion dollar productions . Country music is doing what they've always done great songs great players and a knowledgeable producer , Maybe the AI is on progressive pop songs with tricks I'm not sure . 

 

Oh big players. Yeah I have no doubt that AI has already been squeezed into many songs without it being announced 😅 👍

Edited August 18, 2023 by VoiceEx

[john]

6 hours ago, buckoff said:

Probably so big bucks and technology, A whole team on productions , Even without AI , I hear pop songs , SUPER layered on nunaces . Probably some million dollar a year producer . 

But still in my mind if the song is not well wriiten, I'm really not impressed on AI toys . I guess a robot could write a song , but why are you a songwritter if you want them doing the work? Seems counterproductive and lazy . Seems bad enough rich artists hire 9 songwriters to fly to the Bahmas to write a song. its probably dance to the fever , whatever 

The same division lies in every single technical “advancement”. A few thousand years ago I am almost certain there were traditionalists looking at a plough with the same arguments, or further back, pre-wheel, there were cavemen preferring the traditional put it on rollers or before that, it doesn’t give you the satisfaction that chiselling out the stone and dragging it to your building with teams of workers gives you. I say that and when it comes to songwriting I get the buzz doing it all for myself, though I do use a dictionary and a thesaurus, and rarely a rhyming dictionary.

 

Of course, the same individual can vary their approach within a song, song to song, mood to mood. I do think the ethic should be, if you used AI to write it, you should have to disclose that.

[VoiceEx]

5 hours ago, buckoff said:

But still in my mind if the song is not well wriiten, I'm really not impressed on AI toys . I guess a robot could write a song , but why are you a songwritter if you want them doing the work? Seems counterproductive and lazy . Seems bad enough rich artists hire 9 songwriters to fly to the Bahmas to write a song. its probably dance to the fever , whatever 

 

Though keep in mind, you are looking at it as a musician and as an individual, with his own sense of pride and personal accomplishments. However, if you looked at it as a million dollar production team, for them AI would be an effective way to 'trim the fat'.

 

And by 'trim the fat' I mean: drastically cutting down on expenses, mass producing music at an accelerated rate. And while they'd still have to pay humans, it wouldn't be as much as they did before. Financially speaking, downsizing on the human elements through using A.I and musician programmers would be cheaper and quicker than working with 'the talent' 😅

 

Just to be clear - I'm not supporting this dystopian hellscape. Just saying I can see the business logic behind it.

Edited August 18, 2023 by VoiceEx

[VoiceEx]

1 hour ago, buckoff said:

7 whiskey shots for a highly effective Cowboy

Everbody stop doing music and take up miniature golf

Work on your emathy for a trout

 

Miniature golf? As in.. the outside sport? 😮 Oh we can't have that! You gotta keep things modern. If you're going with depicting how musicians will slowly be reduced to becoming Stay-at-Chad's, then surely you meant on the Playstation 😅👍

[Bridget Murphy]

On 8/8/2023 at 8:04 AM, john said:

I have a bodhran. It can be a great acoustic instrument. Awesome for festivals. A couple of guitars, and a bodhran can do wonders. My friends and I took some instruments along to Glastonbury a long time ago. We played around campfires mostly, but the most memorable was climbing Glastonbury Tor about 11pm for a jam session. I took my guitar, bodhran and didgeridoo with me and had a great party!

 

AI could never replace that kind of experience. AI’s impact would largely be restricted to recorded music. The fact that it lacks any human component is a major limitation. Sure, novelty might drive it to the top of the charts for a while. I don’t think it will last. Like any fad. I think it will always be present now, but by degrees not a dominant feature once the fad passes.

 

That's a pretty good idea sir. By the way, I don't think AI can easily replace live performances.

[john]

9 hours ago, Bridget Murphy said:

 

That's a pretty good idea sir. By the way, I don't think AI can easily replace live performances.

 

Why thank you

 

In the 80s synth music and particular samplers were popular and there was chat about musicians being replaced. It's true to a degree. They were. But it spawned entirely new genres. It brought about big changes, but it didn't do half as much damage as the drive for free music based on misinformation during the online music piracy peak and the rise of streaming companies like Spotify that pay artists a tiny royalty.